Madeleine McCann: German prisoner identified as suspect - #19

[ChatteringBirds]

Why is witness testimony hearsay?

Confession evidence is commonly used.

I just believe there's no way they'd name their POI as CB publicly if witness testimony was their key evidence. This case is too high profile.

 

[axelcruze]

I just believe there's no way they'd name their POI as CB publicly if witness testimony was their key evidence. This case is too high profile.

Trying to smoke somebody out? surveillance round the clock HB and MS, see if NF/contacts make any strange movements or attempts to get to the witnesses. Afterall, HB could put someone else whom don't know of into the frame.

 

[haden]

Perhaps putting his hands over her mouth to stop her screaming and doing so he accidentally kills her? Unsure why he would take the body though. It is more likely her death was after.

Yes, this is what I have been thinking was realistic that could have happened. But it could also be that she fainted and he thought she was dead. But then all except for the window was left in order: doors closed, patio curtains pulled, garden gate closed. You cannot do it if you are holding a child. Unless he used the front door.
I think he had an accomplice. IMO he opened the window to look for the accomplice's arrival.
I have one question:
Do we know if NF had a car?

 

[haden]

I just believe there's no way they'd name their POI as CB publicly if witness testimony was their key evidence. This case is too high profile.

I agree. They have something else.

 

[Arnie M]

In a child abduction the crucial moment is get out of scene ASAP. I can't imagine how she could have died under those circumstances. Even if conceding she accidentally did under some unlikely hypothetical scenario, I see no plausible reason why not leaving the body behind.

Just a side note regarding something I have been thinking about .... could CB have hidden in the apartment while parents & friends were checking up on the kids.

He has been known to do such things .... broke into his ex-girlfriends home and hid under her bed etc.

It would also give him opportunity to plan best time to leave with the child ... and he could have kept her calm by telling her he was there to take care of her ... same as tapas friends checking on kids ... in a sense they were also "strangers" to the children .... CB could act the same.

Been a while since I looked at the apartment layout .... dont think childs bed had enough room to hide under .... were the closets big enough ? .... Master bedroom maybe ? Behind the sofa ?

EDIT TO ADD ..... he could also open the drapes to watch the family at the dining table

 

[Arnie M]

Yes, this is what I have been thinking was realistic that could have happened. But it could also be that she fainted and he thought she was dead. But then all except for the window was left in order: doors closed, patio curtains pulled, garden gate closed. You cannot do it if you are holding a child. Unless he used the front door.
I think he had an accomplice. IMO he opened the window to look for the accomplice's arrival.
I have one question:
Do we know if NF had a car?

See my above post ... if he did have an accomplice he could have been phoning him while "hiding" in the apartment. Plenty of planning time in a situation like that. A run-and-grab is not required. Hope that makes sense. thanks.

 

[Victoria Chambers]

See my above post ... if he did have an accomplice he could have been phoning him while "hiding" in the apartment. Plenty of planning time in a situation like that. A run-and-grab is not required. Hope that makes sense. thanks.

The phone call in question was made just after 7:30pm and ended half an hour later at just gone 8pm. I don't think the abductor would have been inside the apartment up until close to 10pm, MM father last laid eyes on her some time after 9pm - but he does suspect the abductor was inside at that time! Half an hour is a long phone call for anybody to have and certainly not what you expect from a criminal who does not want to leave his mark or even be linked to the scene in question. X

 

[Arnie M]

The phone call in question was made just after 7:30pm and ended half an hour later at just gone 8pm. I don't think the abductor would have been inside the apartment up until close to 10pm, MM father last laid eyes on her some time after 9pm - but he does suspect the abductor was inside at that time! Half an hour is a long phone call for anybody to have and certainly not what you expect from a criminal who does not want to leave his mark or even be linked to the scene in question. X

Thank you for that

 

[mrjitty]

In a child abduction the crucial moment is get out of scene ASAP. I can't imagine how she could have died under those circumstances. Even if conceding she accidentally did under some unlikely hypothetical scenario, I see no plausible reason why not leaving the body behind.

BIB

This pre-pack defence is the big problem for any prosecution - CB can argue Some Other Dude Did It, pointing to the very same circumstantial evidence. So either HCW needs to answer these questions in his theory of the case, or have some very specific evidence which proves the forensics are not relevant to the case (e.g. not blood, or deposited prior).

 

[mrjitty]

In a child abduction the crucial moment is get out of scene ASAP.

Agreed. The abduction MO normally has 3 crime scenes. Point of Abduction, Secluded/controlled location for the attack, and then a dumping ground for the body. Sometimes the body is well concealed for forensic reasons, but often not.

But from what we know of him, CB's MO has never been abduction*

(* he could of course have such crimes we don't know about)

I can't imagine how she could have died under those circumstances. Even if conceding she accidentally did under some unlikely hypothetical scenario, I see no plausible reason why not leaving the body behind.

A lot of theories of the case impute knowledge and an MO that CB did not necessarily have at the time. From all we know, its possible to theorise his MO was to gain entry and attack on site over extended periods. He also apparently broke in for burglaries. Maybe if the checking regimen was less than claimed, he simply did not expect the parents back at all for at least an hour. He may have been in the apartment for over 30mins. For all we know, he did indeed gain entry for a burglary for which we have some evidence of a course of a previous course of dealing at OC.

Then maybe something went wrong and in a panic, he took the body for forensic reasons? Quite possible IMO, if we put aside what we think we know about the case from back in 2007, and focus more on known offending from this guy.

 

[mrjitty]

From what I understand, neither the young German girl nor the older Italian woman have come forward or been traced. While I know this is not uncommon in rape cases, it’s also a possibility that they are deceased.

I suspect the german girl is someone he met/knew and he lured her back - perhaps with drugs. As you say, not uncommon.

 

[Chiatos]

Does it occur to anyone that CB / the abductor need not to have entered into the apartment to snatch MM?
He could have snatched her through the open window.
Easy peasy and quickly done.

 

[enjy15]

Does it occur to anyone that CB / the abductor need not to have entered into the apartment to snatch MM?
He could have snatched her through the open window.
Easy peasy and quickly done.

True, from the picture of MMs bed though it does look like someone’s come in and pulled back the covers to take her IMO.

 

[Victoria Chambers]

True, from the picture of MMs bed though it does look like someone’s come in and pulled back the covers to take her IMO.

I thought MM slept in the bed nearest to the bedroom door, the 1 circled. And anybody leaving via the window would have to step on the other bed?? X

 

[Denis R Tandib]

I suspect the german girl is someone he met/knew and he lured her back - perhaps with drugs. As you say, not uncommon.

But she isn’t a young girl now and she is a key witness to a the biggest missing person case in the world yet we know nothing about her.

I also think the Italian lady seems out of place in the Algarve. German, British, Dutch people, even perhaps younger surfy Italians could be likely but the older Italian lady just doesn’t seem to fit. Is it possible that HB and MS heard the Portuguese
“Ajude-me” (help me) and not the Italian “Aiutami” (help me). It’s just that a missing or raped older Portuguese lady would be (unfortunately) less unusual than an Italian one.

We know these rapes occurred yet no further information on either.

 

[Chiatos]

I thought MM slept in the bed nearest to the bedroom door, the 1 circled. And anybody leaving via the window would have to step on the other bed?? X

Yes that's what has been said from the beginning.
But what if MM had been sleeping in the other bed next to the window?

 

[Victoria Chambers]

Yes that's what has been said from the beginning.
But what if MM had been sleeping in the other bed next to the window?

It is possible. But that would mean her parents lied! I'm not sure why I want to believe them but I hope they didn't lie about it X

 

[Chiatos]

CB was known to SY prior to 2017;

Scotland Yard said his name (CB) was already known to its investigation, but he did not become a suspect until after information was received as a "direct consequence" of a 2017 appeal.

Portugal apartment Madeleine McCann spent final hours before vanishing

 

[Victoria Chambers]

CB was known to SY prior to 2017;

Scotland Yard said his name (CB) was already known to its investigation, but he did not become a suspect until after information was received as a "direct consequence" of a 2017 appeal.

Portugal apartment Madeleine McCann spent final hours before vanishing

Yeah, I've always thought SY did contact German authorities about CB and I'm not sure where this bit comes from- but I'm sure it was in 2013! I could be wrong X

 

[snowpea666]

I suspect the german girl is someone he met/knew and he lured her back - perhaps with drugs. As you say, not uncommon.

I wonder if she could have been the young German girl that was with NF, the one that ran away and CB brought back, then pregnant?