Found Deceased Malaysia - Nora Quoirin, 15, from UK, special needs, missing on vacation, Seremban, 4 Aug 2019 #7

[Auntie_Seagull]

Nora had unusually many ulcer perforations* [3:47] in her intestine and in her peritoneum [earlier in the film].

Peritoneum? Not in the duodenum?

 

[kittythehare]

Nora Anne Quoirin inquest: Pathologists affirm no visible signs of sexual, physical assault, estimated time of death at least three days before body’s discovery | Malay Mail

This is quite lengthy
He also agreed when it was suggested that determining the circumstances that led to Quoirin’s death was far more complicated, adding that he and Dr Siew took into consideration every possibility to rule out any foul play but failed to obtain a definite lead.

He also asserted that there were no signs of struggle or defensive marks present on Quoirin’s wrists or forearms, and her naturally compliant behaviour may also have contributed to the lack of markings.

As for the multiple abrasion wounds seen all over Quoirin’s body and limbs, Dr Hanif hypothesised that they were consistent with her disappearance in the dense jungle.

“Through my site visit, I found that the injuries sustained by the deceased were consistent with the circumstances of the surrounding area where she was found,” he said, adding that he could not find any extraordinary injuries except the ones mentioned earlier.

When asked if it is possible for biological evidence such as seminal fluid to have been washed away since Quoirin was found submerged in a stream, Dr Hanif said it was possible.

 

[HongKongPhooey]

Nora Anne Quoirin inquest: Pathologists affirm no visible signs of sexual, physical assault, estimated time of death at least three days before body’s discovery | Malay Mail

This is quite lengthy
He also agreed when it was suggested that determining the circumstances that led to Quoirin’s death was far more complicated, adding that he and Dr Siew took into consideration every possibility to rule out any foul play but failed to obtain a definite lead.

He also asserted that there were no signs of struggle or defensive marks present on Quoirin’s wrists or forearms, and her naturally compliant behaviour may also have contributed to the lack of markings.

As for the multiple abrasion wounds seen all over Quoirin’s body and limbs, Dr Hanif hypothesised that they were consistent with her disappearance in the dense jungle.

“Through my site visit, I found that the injuries sustained by the deceased were consistent with the circumstances of the surrounding area where she was found,” he said, adding that he could not find any extraordinary injuries except the ones mentioned earlier.

When asked if it is possible for biological evidence such as seminal fluid to have been washed away since Quoirin was found submerged in a stream, Dr Hanif said it was possible.

In short, sounds like inconclusive still? No signs of attack (but dna may have washed away). Injuries consistent with the jungle. Ulcers suggest severe stress level, poor girl.

 

[kittythehare]

In short, sounds like inconclusive still? No signs of attack (but dna may have washed away). Injuries consistent with the jungle. Ulcers suggest severe stress level, poor girl.

I believe it's as conclusive as it can be.
They did a great job.
The lack of even Nora's footsteps anywhere close to where her body was located is a mystery, unless... either herself or whoever brought her there travelled by water?
Is that a possibility @Chiatos ? Would a small boat have had access or not? You know terrain best.

 

[HongKongPhooey]

I believe it's as conclusive as it can be.
They did a great job.
The lack of even Nora's footsteps anywhere close to where her body was located is a mystery, unless... either herself or whoever brought her there travelled by water?
Is that a possibility @Chiatos ? Would a small boat have had access or not? You know terrain best.

Yes I agree I'm sure they did a great job.

But it seems there was nothing to be found. From the article, as I'm reading it:

Hymen in tact (thank goodness) and no dna or external damage found. They commented that they couldnt discount touching which left no evidence, but for me that's not convincing enough to draw an opinion.

A visit to the location did not assist them.

Bruises on her arm could have resulted from her falling.

Injuries on her body consistent with branches etc.

Nothing to suggest an abduction or transfer to the area by a third party (which was my strongest theory up until now).

 

[Lilibet]

Nothing to suggest an abduction or transfer to the area by a third party (which was my strongest theory up until now).

How Nora got to her final resting place will probably remain a mystery. Regarding lack of evidence of abduction or transfer to the area by a third party (interesting wording), absence of evidence isn’t evidence of absence (of a third party). I’m still struggling with Nora getting there on her own. Could the parents’ estimate of her abilities be so unrealistic as to insist adamantly that she couldn’t do it? There is no one in Malaysia who can definitively assert that she could have gone on her own. But a medical witness the parents provide will likely be one who would confirm their opinion that she didn’t have the physical ability or be neutral. So we’re left with the parents saying she had to have been abducted and the Malaysian professionals saying there is no evidence that she was abducted. What would Occam’s Razor indicate is most likely? I really can’t say.

 

[kittythehare]

the actual audio of his testimony describes her physical abilities far better than this it's worth listening to
Nóra Quoirin: Teacher tells inquest she would not have walked off
Malay Mail
According to Reeves, Quoirin had enrolled at the special school located on the outskirts of central London at the age of 11 in September 2015, pointing out how he was very much acquainted with the teenager as he had stood in as substitute teacher for her class several times.

“In terms of the effects of this had upon her functioning, in terms of her intellect and cognition learning, Nora presented when she arrived to us at the age of 11 as a child functioning in terms of reading at about the age of six.


“Her mathematical ability was below the age of five. Her ability to recall sentences was about the age of five and her ability to form sentences was below the age of seven.

“Other conditions included, particularly very poor balance, very poor core strength, poor posture and all of them meant physically she found it difficult to take part in some activities including Physical Education,” he said during the inquest hearing that was conducted through video-conferencing.

He recalled how throughout the four years he knew Quoirin, he had never once seen the teenager running in the playground as the girl was fearful of falling when she attempted to do so.

“She did have a significant physical disability as well although you may not see it, her ability to move, balance and straight posture was limited,” he said, adding that the teenager also suffered from hearing loss on her right ear.

He explained that it would become obvious that she had a disability only when one gets closer and interacts with Quoirin, describing her gait as quite fragile coupled with poor balancing when seen from a distance.

Apart from the school’s curriculum, Reeves also disclosed that Quoirin attended two one-to-one therapies — occupational therapy; and speech and language therapy — provided by the school’s therapists to develop the relevant skills she needed and evaluate them on a yearly basis.

Apart from the aforementioned challenges Quoirin faced, Reeves also said the teenager found it difficult to interpret complex emotions, unable to comprehend multi-step instructions, hard to explain advanced concepts and was easily distracted by noises.

He said Quoirin made good progress albeit at a very minimal level throughout her four-year enrolment at the school.

Highly, highly unlikely for Quoirin to go out through window

Asked on the possible theory that Quoirin had gotten outside by exiting through a window roughly at the waist height of an adult, Reeves said Quoirin was absolutely incapable of doing so due to her physical limitations.

“Nora was much obviously much shorter than an average adult. So waist-height for an adult would be getting on to chest height for Nora and I just can’t imagine her having either the skill or balance or strength to climb over something like that.

“No, it’s just highly, highly unlikely,” he said, adding that Quoirin was very much conscious of her disabilities.

Asked further how she would cope with walking over rough terrain filled with stones and tree branches or through perimeter fencing, Reeves said Quoirin would find it exceptionally difficult to do so.

“She would have found it exceptionally difficult. Even for a short distance it would have been very difficult. The idea of Nora climbing fencing is unimaginable. I simply would not believe she would do that.

“She might have climbed over something a foot or higher but no higher than that. Nora had the ability to know what fences are for and she respects other people’s space, rule-bound and had a clear sense of right and wrong,” he added.

He said Quoirin would have been frightened and responded by closing in on herself if she were to find herself out in the dark in a foreign country.

“I would envisage her shouting for her parents. I would expect her to close up and stay still wherever she was,” he said.

Nora Anne, a 15-year-old with learning difficulties, disappeared from the resort last year where she was staying with her London-based family, triggering a 10-day hunt involving helicopters, sniffer dogs and hundreds of searchers.

Her body was discovered close to the jungle retreat and an autopsy found that she likely died of internal bleeding linked to starvation after spending about a week in the dense rainforest.

The inquest resumes on November 23.

Nora Anne Quoirin inquest: Ex-headteacher affirms teen’s difficulties from medical abnormality, says unlikely climbed out window | Malay Mail


Related Articles

• Nora Anne Quoirin inquest: Pathologists affirm no visible signs of sexual, physical assault, estimated time of death at least three days before body’s discovery
• Nora Anne Quoirin inquest: UK forensic pathologist says no reason to dispute autopsy findings, further examination hampered decomposition
• Nora Anne Quoirin inquest: Crime scene investigator says teen’s body only had scratch marks, insect bites when found, no serious injuries observed otherwise

Here is link to her teacher's first day of testimony

 

[Cherwell]

"Nora was much obviously much shorter than an average adult. So waist-height for an adult would be getting on to chest height for Nora ..."

I thought it was said earlier that Nora was 5 foot 1. That's not unusual for an adult - I'm 5' 1''.
Are there any photos of her with other people so we can get an idea of which version is closer to the facts?

 

[MimosaMornings]

The family has traveled places in previous years, think it mentioned going to see relatives - but have they been doing this type of travel, staying at a similar place - not a hotel or at a relative’s home? There’s a big difference between this resort and staying at a chain hotel.

The other piece of the puzzle we will never know - the siblings testimony. There is information about Nora that would be important about the trip, that evening, sleeping arrangements plus interaction on a daily basis with Nora. Much different perspective than the parents.

JMO

 

[Chiatos]

Peritoneum? Not in the duodenum?

Both were perforated..... many perforations.

 

[kittythehare]

The family has traveled places in previous years, think it mentioned going to see relatives - but have they been doing this type of travel, staying at a similar place - not a hotel or at a relative’s home? There’s a big difference between this resort and staying at a chain hotel.

The other piece of the puzzle we will never know - the siblings testimony. There is information about Nora that would be important about the trip, that evening, sleeping arrangements plus interaction on a daily basis with Nora. Much different perspective than the parents.

JMO

Both parents discussed this in their testimonies.
They asked a friend to recommend a place close to KualaLumpar, they only intended staying there a few days. It was merely a stop-over venue.

 

[Chiatos]

I believe it's as conclusive as it can be.
They did a great job.
The lack of even Nora's footsteps anywhere close to where her body was located is a mystery, unless... either herself or whoever brought her there travelled by water?
Is that a possibility @Chiatos ? Would a small boat have had access or not? You know terrain best.

I don't know the terrain, but based on pictures of the surroundings and based on the aerial view or the area, I certainly don't expect a boat in that stream.

 

[kittythehare]

I don't know the terrain, but based on pictures of the surroundings and based on the aerial view or the area, I certainly don't expect a boat in that stream.

But no marks at all found?
No footprints at all?
Nothing.

 

[Chiatos]

The many perforations found in Nora are no evidence of her having been afraid, they're evidence of Nora having been terrified.
She was utterly terrified.

Could she have done this by herself? Could she have wandered off by herself? Shoe less? Could she have crossed those roads intentionally?
How come she ended up at a spot well known to the owners of the resort? Of all places?
How come she ended up very near the water treatment plant? Of all places?

 

[Chiatos]

But no marks at all found?
No footprints at all?
Nothing.

I know!
She could have waded through the shallow stream, but still. She would have had to have done it while in the process of dying.
(?)

 

[MimosaMornings]

Both parents discussed this in their testimonies.
They asked a friend to recommend a place close to KualaLumpar, they only intended staying there a few days. It was merely a stop-over venue.

I remember that part. I was just wondering if this type of environment was new/scary/standard stuff to Nora?
A camping trip was mentioned - so perhaps Nora was more accustomed to outdoor type lodging and was not afraid of walking outside in a strange outdoor environment.
Perhaps the family had stayed at very similar “open” type vacation housing each year versus a more commercial hotel or home. JMO

 

[HongKongPhooey]

How Nora got to her final resting place will probably remain a mystery. Regarding lack of evidence of abduction or transfer to the area by a third party (interesting wording), absence of evidence isn’t evidence of absence (of a third party). I’m still struggling with Nora getting there on her own. Could the parents’ estimate of her abilities be so unrealistic as to insist adamantly that she couldn’t do it? There is no one in Malaysia who can definitively assert that she could have gone on her own. But a medical witness the parents provide will likely be one who would confirm their opinion that she didn’t have the physical ability or be neutral. So we’re left with the parents saying she had to have been abducted and the Malaysian professionals saying there is no evidence that she was abducted. What would Occam’s Razor indicate is most likely? I really can’t say.

I cant imagine Nora making her way that far on her own either Lilibet. It's just as bizarre as it always was.

 

[janeh]

The family has traveled places in previous years, think it mentioned going to see relatives - but have they been doing this type of travel, staying at a similar place - not a hotel or at a relative’s home? There’s a big difference between this resort and staying at a chain hotel.

The other piece of the puzzle we will never know - the siblings testimony. There is information about Nora that would be important about the trip, that evening, sleeping arrangements plus interaction on a daily basis with Nora. Much different perspective than the parents.

JMO

 

[janeh]

It was discussed on here early on that they had previously enjoyed those type of holidays. I think that was due to their busy day to day lives this type of holiday was more preferable to them. Perhaps not normally as remote as this complex is though.

I have followed this case since the beginning and something is bothering me about the location where Nora was found. I am suspecting that she did reach this area by herself. I say this because it has been reported that it is very, very difficult to reach. Whilst most people here seem to have concluded it is not somewhere that Nora could have got to herself, I believe that she did. Once lost, I feel that Nora has wandered aimlessly in no particular direction and stumbled/fell a lot due to her limited walking ability. I don't see this as impossible, whereas I do think that it would have been more difficult than that for someone to have taken her there by carrying her, for example. Nora had a week to become more and more lost and covering that distance in spurts and could be the reality of the situation in my view.

 

[Chiatos]

This is so confusing.
The pathologist described the terrain and how even he had a hard time to reach the spot where Nora had been found.
A strong, grown-up man. Without disorders, without ulcers in his intestine and wearing good shoes.

Nora could have walked around aimlessly, who knows. How did she get there? The terrain is known to be steep and with much undergrowth.

Isn't there any footage showing Nora's motoric skills? The defence lawyers keep on mentioning her participating in basket ball and cycling classes.
Surely, her basket ball and cycling classes can't be compared to those of pro's?

I don't know what to think any more.