Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #20

[Rolfe]

If the Kerchers did ask for the schedule to be altered so they could attend at the verdict, I see no prospect at all that they would be denied this on the grounds that the court was going to acquit! Just think about what you're saying!

 

[SMK]

Amanda Knox's lawyers demand: Set her free

http://www.seattlepi.com/amanda-knox/article/Amanda-Knox-s-lawyer-2192664.php#ixzz1ZMLTf0hx

 

[SMK]

If the Kerchers did ask for the schedule to be altered so they could attend at the verdict, I see no prospect at all that they wouldn be denied this on the grounds that the count was going to acquit! Just think about what you're saying!

You are absolutely correct! What was I thinking??:waitasec: ETA: Oh, I now see what you are addressing: In other words, you believe the courtesy would still be extended, even with acquittal...After all, Hellman could not very well say, "No, stay home, it will not be worth your while..."

 

[SMK]

I think waiting until Monday has more to do with the media. Apparently Hellman has agreed to allow the media to livestream/photograph the verdict when it is read. So I think he agreed to Monday, instead of "Saturday or Monday" so everyone didn't have to hang out for the entire weekend.

I could be totally wrong. I find the agreement to allow the photographing, etc. very intriguing and cannot come to a conclusion about whether or not it is a good/bad sign.

Salem

(highlighted by SMK)--I am wondering about this, too. It could be for either reason: Wanting the world to see them set free, or wanting the world to see Italy stand strong against "American media pressure".:waitasec:

 

[trillian]

You are absolutely correct! What was I thinking??:waitasec: ETA: Oh, I now see what you are addressing: In other words, you believe the courtesy would still be extended, even with acquittal...After all, Hellman could not very well say, "No, stay home, it will not be worth your while..."

lol, no I guess he couldnt say that. But really, why would the Kerchers need extra time when everyone else is camped out for this verdict? I'm sure they would be there Saturday if it was scheduled for Saturday.

The media angle does make sense. And as a bonus, Perugia gets more media $$ from the crews already there spending an extra few days, not that Hellman should care.

 

[SMK]

When you stop and look at what it entails just to get images of her entering the court room, I think it probably is safe to assume that the delay of the verdict entails media issues.....:waitasec:

image from Perugia Murder File.org

 

[OldSteve]

Interesting how the pictures and talk focuses upon Amanda so much more so than on
Raffaele.
They supposedly acted as a team, yet all I hear is how Amanda is the evil this-and-that (not that I want to hear this say about Raffaele, or her)... I guess the media knows what sells, sadly.
Is it me, or does the outcome of the appeal appear to rest more upon finding Amanda guilty/innocent ?

 

[SMK]

Interesting how the pictures and talk focuses upon Amanda so much more so than on
Raffaele.
They supposedly acted as a team, yet all I hear is how Amanda is the evil this-and-that (not that I want to hear this say about Raffaele, or her)... I guess the media knows what sells, sadly.
Is it me, or does the outcome of the appeal appear to rest more upon finding Amanda guilty/innocent ?

I agree. Sollecito was always sort of a "guilt by association" figure- and even their attorneys have been careful not to speak of them as a pair...They even speak of "pressure from American media" (the prosecution, that is) and we know Sollecito is from Rome.

 

[Monzoo]

FYI --

Friday's 20/20 will include a report on the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito Trial.

 

[SMK]

FYI --

Friday's 20/20 will include a report on the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito Trial.

Thanks--I will look for it!!

 

[Rolfe]

I agree. Sollecito was always sort of a "guilt by association" figure- and even their attorneys have been careful not to speak of them as a pair...They even speak of "pressure from American media" (the prosecution, that is) and we know Sollecito is from Rome.

I believe he's from a town in the far south of Italy.

 

[Rolfe]

You are absolutely correct! What was I thinking??:waitasec: ETA: Oh, I now see what you are addressing: In other words, you believe the courtesy would still be extended, even with acquittal...After all, Hellman could not very well say, "No, stay home, it will not be worth your while..."

What I really meant was, since they haven't deliberated yet, and they haven't even heard all the arguments, they can hardly use the nature of the verdict that will be delivered as a reason for either granting or denying such a request!

In particular, as you say, Hellman could hardly turn down the request, because in the back of his mind he's thinking, well you're not going to like what I'm going to say anyway, so better if you can't make it.

It's ridiculous.

Anyway, I think the rescheduling was purely for logistical reasons.

 

[SMK]

I believe he's from a town in the far south of Italy.

:blushing::doh:

 

[SMK]

What I really meant was, since they haven't deliberated yet, and they haven't even heard all the arguments, they can hardly use the nature of the verdict that will be delivered as a reason for either granting or denying such a request!

In particular, as you say, Hellman could hardly turn down the request, because in the back of his mind he's thinking, well you're not going to like what I'm going to say anyway, so better if you can't make it.

It's ridiculous.

Anyway, I think the rescheduling was purely for logistical reasons.

Do you still have full confidence in acquittal? I must say, I am worried, as someone pointed out on JREF, that the defense - notwithstanding the DNA thrown out by the independent experts - may still not prevail, if the jury decides that Knox's "accusation" of PL and other things still points to guilt....

 

[Rolfe]

No, of course I don't have "full confidence" in acquittal. I'm aware of far to many utterly perverse judgements and appeal judgements for that.

However, I'm reasonably optimistic. This really is a very straightforward case. Burglar burgles house. Young lady returns home while he's there, there is a confrontation, and she is sexually assaulted and murdered. Burglar flees. Burglar is identified by a fingerprint which matches his immigration records on file, and then DNA which is collected from his home matches the "mystery" DNA found at the scene of the crime. Burglar is apprehended, tried and convicted.

What the defence need to do is show the court that simple narrative, and that the accusation of the two students is a bizarre side-show entirely dreamed up by the Perugian law enforcement. It's an Occam's razor job, in that sense. Anyone looking at the evidence, or rather lack of it, should understand that. It's only because the evidence has been misrepresented in the media and on message boards that the guilter position still seems tenable.

 

[SMK]

No, of course I don't have "full confidence" in acquittal. I'm aware of far to many utterly perverse judgements and appeal judgements for that.

However, I'm reasonably optimistic. This really is a very straightforward case. Burglar burgles house. Young lady return home while he's there, there is a confrontation, and she is sexually assaulted and murdered. Burglar flees. Burglar is identified by a fingerprint which matches his immigration records on file, and then DNA which is collected from his home matches the "mystery" DNA found at the scene of the crime. Burglar is apprehended, tried and convicted.

What the defence need to do is show the court that simple narrative, and that the accusation of the two students is a bizarre side-show entirely dreamed up by the Perugian law enforcement. It's an Occam's razor job, in that sense. Anyone looking at the evidence, or rather lack of it, should understand that. It's only because the evidence has been misrepresented in the media and on message boards that the guilter position still seems tenable.

Yes, well-stated. I just do not trust juries....

 

[Monzoo]

Do you still have full confidence in acquittal? I must say, I am worried, as someone pointed out on JREF, that the defense - notwithstanding the DNA thrown out by the independent experts - may still not prevail, if the jury decides that Knox's "accusation" of PL and other things still points to guilt....

You didn't ask me, but I think acquittal looks to be the likely outcome.

The reason I feel this way is based on the evidence Hellmann decided to allow further testimony on in this appeal -- namely, the knife, bra clasp, and the testimony of Antonio Cuartolo.

Hellmann decided to appoint an independent expert to look at the knife and bra clasp, and recall Cuartolo, at the beginning of the appeal. I don't believe he is an unfair man, so it stands to reason that he thought that these pieces of evidence were crucial to the prosecution's case. They are, after all the ones charged with proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

When one looks at the results of the examination of this evidence, I believe that by most accounts Cuartolo, the knife and the bra clasp were all found to be unreliable. In essence, the prosecution did not gain any new evidence from the first trial but they lost a great deal.

If Hellmann would still convict even without these it stands to reason that he would have given the defense an opportunity to present even more things. There were an awful lot of things asked for in the appeals that Hellmann did not grant at the beginning (such as an independent expert on the computer evidence) that I think he would have allowed if he were not already convinced to acquit.

The one thing I am less sure about is Amanda's conviction for calumnia against Patrick Lumumba. I thnk that could go either way.

 

[SMK]

You didn't ask me, but I think acquittal looks to be the likely outcome.

The reason I feel this way is based on the evidence Hellmann decided to allow further testimony on in this appeal -- namely, the knife, bra clasp, and the testimony of Antonio Cuartolo.

Hellmann decided to appoint an independent expert to look at the knife and bra clasp, and recall Cuartolo, at the beginning of the appeal. I don't believe he is an unfair man, so it stands to reason that he thought that these pieces of evidence were crucial to the prosecution's case. They are, after all the ones charged with proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

When one looks at the results of the examination of this evidence, I believe that by most accounts Cuartolo, the knife and the bra clasp were all found to be unreliable. In essence, the prosecution did not gain any new evidence from the first trial but they lost a great deal.

If Hellmann would still convict even without these it stands to reason that he would have given the defense an opportunity to present even more things. There were an awful lot of things asked for in the appeals that Hellmann did not grant at the beginning (such as an independent expert on the computer evidence) that I think he would have allowed if he were not already convinced to acquit.

The one thing I am less sure about is Amanda's conviction for calumnia against Patrick Lumumba. I thnk that could go either way.

Thanks, really excellent points, and most appreciated. Just so long as the calumnia does not get intertwined with the criminal ("well, she accused him falsely, so must have had some involvement after all")- i am thinking less of Hellman and more of those 6 wearing those sashes....

 

[Monzoo]

Thanks, really excellent points, and most appreciated. Just so long as the calumnia does not get intertwined with the criminal ("well, she accused him falsely, so must have had some involvement after all")- i am thinking less of Hellman and more of those 6 wearing those sashes....

I don't think that Hellmann would allow conviction of a greater charge based on a lesser charge. I have a feeling that the two judges will hold great sway over the lay judges -- odds are, the verdict will be unanimous or nearly unanimous. MOO.

 

[wasnt_me]

Hmm, is it just me or does Raf seem to be getting hotter?

Of course if I thought for a minute that he was guilty I wouldn't think that, but in the paradigm of innocence...

I think he's innocent, but unfortunately, some killers, especially serial killers, have some kind of sex appeal. Like Ted Bundy. The murderousness of course does make them unattractive, but some of them used their sex appeal to get victims.