MI - 4 students killed, 6 injured, Oxford High School shooting, 30 Nov 2021 *Arrest incl parents* #2

[Chelly]

Curious to know how they were planning to get across the border. Sheriff stated it was less than a mile away. Were they planning to pay someone to smuggle them in a boat? Obviously they couldn't cross at a manned border. Did they think they could get ashore and just walk into the country? There's surveillance all along the border.

I have an acquaintance who's then-boyfriend crossed illegally from Canada to US on a boat, ten years ago. There was no bolo out on him, just an outstanding warrant for I don't know what. I also don't know the ease of illegal US/Canada or Canada/Us crossing these days.

 

[Betty P]

Sheriff Michael Bouchard of Oakland County MI was just interviewed live on MSNBC. The shooter and his parents are in his jail. Bouchard said the demeanor of all three is "sullen" and showing "no remorse".

I'm glad the U.S. Marshals were involved. They didn't buy the story of "they're going to turn themselves in tomorrow...". I also have the impression they weren't confused about whether the prosecutor was going to charge the parents. JMO, they had seen enough evidence at that point to realize the parents contributed to the shooting. It's a big relief to know someone is on the ball and takes these things seriously. JMO

 

[cady]

dbm

 

[MsMarple]

Imagine how differently the day would have gone if a school official had simply asked “Ethan, would you open your backpack for us?”

 

[ClaireNC]

It's over - I hope I was able to get all the information to you guys. Was trying to type as fast as they were speaking!

If you need me to, I can copy all my posts into one long post

Thanks so much for your notes! I watched the proceedings but your notes are great to refer back to and help with understanding. I’d like to see a long post with all the notes in one place.

 

[Arkay]

I would like to know what transpired during the meeting with Ethan, his parents, and school officials on the morning of the shooting. I suspect that the Crumbleys thought it was all a joke and that the school was overreacting.

I agree. My impression is that this was an inconvenience to the parents, and they felt a waste of their time. They certainly didn't react with anguish, not if the mother was texting “LOL learn how to not get caught” to Ethan.

I wonder what the school admin are thinking now, since clearly they were sitting in an office with the family while Ethan had the gun in his backpack. I suppose he could’ve chosen to kill them or his parents if he’d so wished.

 

[bestill]

Imagine how differently the day would have gone if a school official had simply asked “Ethan, would you open your backpack for us?”

Yes!! One simple question that any of the adults in the room could have asked.

 

[ClaireNC]

I’m a gun owner and I just can’t get past the fact that they bought their 15 year old son a handgun for Christmas! Who buys a 15 year old a handgun? I could go with a BB gun or a shotgun maybe for target practice or skeet shooting. But a handgun? Why?

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Imagine how differently the day would have gone if a school official had simply asked “Ethan, would you open your backpack for us?”

At that point, Ethan might have felt cornered. If the gun was loaded, Ethan could have shot both of his parents and school personnel in attendance at the meeting. He might very well have shot himself.

 

[kaen]

Imagine how differently the day would have gone if a school official had simply asked “Ethan, would you open your backpack for us?”

Or, if the school officials had asked him these things before his parents arrived, conducted the search, and called the police-- which they could have done.

The school is limited do that because they need reasonable suspicion. They could have also questioned him if they were not to intrusive if he was suspected of breaking a school code or the law. But, some school administrators are more in fear of parents/people getting furious about their actions than they are of acting. My guess is that this family would have told them to not question him further until they arrived. Given their familial response to the looking up ammunition, they were probably a family that school administrators dreaded dealing with.

The parents could have asked him if he had a weapon. I suspect these parents would not have asked because if they did he might have gotten into "trouble" with the school, which they would have wanted to avoid.

What none of us know is if the gun was in his backpack or hidden somewhere on the campus. I think he may have hidden it rather than keep it in his pack.

 

[Chelly]

Imagine how differently the day would have gone if a school official had simply asked “Ethan, would you open your backpack for us?”

Maybe the school official would have been shot?

 

[Cryptic]

Most, if not all, schools have protocols about what happens when you see a kid in this kind of condition ---even committees that look at potential student threats based on behavior in the community.

So, here is my issue with the district and it is embedded in this response. The issue is not about discipline. The issue is about action warranted.

My children go to a school that has limited resources and alot of unsupervised at home type students. I volunteer at the school and know the principle- an amazing women.

Good news is that there is committee. Bad news is that the committee has a uhmm...."good number" of problem students to evaluate, discipline and keep track of.

Other bad news is that we are the roughest school in a low reputation district and other nearby nearby socio economic bubble districts pay noticeably more. This leads to staff and in turn, committee turn over. The more capable staff tend to turn over the most.

The committee marches on as best they can. The committee needs to make judgement calls- sometimes based on partial information, as to which kids are truly dangerous, which are "salvgeable" and which were one time problems.

Evaluations so far this year include quickly expelling a kid who brought a gun to school. But.... also allowing a boy caught twice with a knife at school to stay (salvageable).

I know the family and the kid. The mother is involved. The kid has anger issues, likes to show off and is slow- and is not going to "speed up" (why sugar coat?). I support the school's judgement call and don't think he is truly dangerous either.

But.... it is still a judgement call and the school and myself could still be wrong. In short, crystal balls are in short supply and it can be hard to tell the truly dangerous from the salvageable and if a "one time" is going to be one time.

 

[Chelly]

At that point, Ethan might have felt cornered. If the gun was loaded, Ethan could have shot both of his parents and school personnel in attendance at the meeting. He might very well have shot himself.

Agree. He was on the edge. I believe he would have pulled out the weapon and used it.

 

[Cool Cats]

• Parents of Michigan school shooter Ethan Crumbley charged with manslaughter | Daily Mail Online
• Seven disturbing details about suspected school shooter's 'fugitive' parents

Ethan was arraigned in court on Thursday Credit: WNYT

James and Jennifer Crumbley. James was proud of the open letter Jennifer wrote to Trump praising his defense of gun rights.

Jennifer and Ethan show off gun on social media, Jennifer brags of hitting the bullseye. Ethan offers to take questions about the gun.

 

[bestill]

Do we know if the parents were at home when the school called them for the emergency meeting? Would have been very easy to check and see if the guns were where they should be.

 

[kaen]

My children go to a school that has limited resources and alot of unsupervised at home type students. I volunteer at the school and know the principle- an amazing women.

Good news is that there is committee. Bad news is that the committee has a uhmm...."good number" of problem students to evaluate, discipline and keep track of.

Other bad news is that we are the roughest school in a low reputation district and other nearby nearby socio economic bubble districts pay noticeably more. This leads to staff and in turn, committee turn over either to other schools in the district or to "bubbleville". The more capable staff tend to turn over the most.

The committee marches on as best they can. The committee needs to make judgement calls- sometimes based on partial information, as to which kids are truly dangerous, which are "salvgeable" and which were one time problems.

So far this year, among alot of other evaluations, the committee quickly expelled a kid who brought a gun to school. But.... also allowed a boy caught twice with a knife at school to stay (salvageable).

I know the family and the kid. The mother is involved and are not in denial. The kid is has anger issues, likes to show off and is slow- and is probably not going to speed up (why sugar coat?). He is still very responsible for his decisions. I support the school's judgement call in letting him stay. I don't think he is truly dangerous either.

But.... it is still a judgement call and the school and myself could still be wrong- very wrong. In short, crystal balls are in short supply and it can be hard to tell the truly dangerous from the salvageable and if a "one time" is going to be one time.

I totally get all of that. I am so sorry that these committees have to exist. It is better than days of no committee and leaving it up to the judgment of one person. It is by no means perfect but a better system than none. The calls are hard and to think we have to assess children based on salvageable or not breaks my heart. This school shooting is a grim reminder that we have to keep striving to do better. That said, if there were mistakes made by the school administration then whatever the cost (financial or human capital) they should be held to account.

 

[Kristin Esq.]

@ClaireNC Here you go

Notes from the Arraignment:

* Jen. C - Involuntary manslaughter - 4 charges, punishable of up at 15 year in prison and/or $7,500 fine. She has plead Not Guilty to all four counts. She's crying.

* Same charges for James C. James also plead Not Guilty on all 4 counts. He sounded somber.


Probable cause conference is on Dec. 14 at 1:15pm.
Preliminary Examination Dec 22 at 9:45am

Both are in person.

Bail Discussion

Prosecution: There is a strong likelihood of conviction. The gun was purchased for his son. Mrs. Crumbley went to the shooting range with her son and posted on social media that this gun was his christmas present. Both Defendants were aware that he was searing ammunition - Mrs. Crumbley texted "LOL I'm not mad, next time don't get caught." On the 30th, they were called to the school regarding a drawing that depicted acts of violence, they chose not to disclose to the school that he might be dangerous, that he had access to a gun, and didn't take him home. After the active shooter situation, she texted him "Ethan, Don't Do It." Mr. Crumbly checked his gun. They could have stopped it, they didn't secure the weapon and allowed him free access to it. Purpose of bond is to further court appearances. Clearly, the defendants didn't tell their lawyers the truth, they didn't turn themselves in. They withdrew $4K from Rochester which is very close. They weren't out of town. Instead they fled, and they were eventually tracked down because a witness saw it. They were found locked in a room hiding. They aren't people that can be assured to return to court on their own.

The court should also consider members of community to vouch for the defendants. There was no one there to vouch for them.

Defendants’ Attorney: She texted the prosecutor they could talk. Prosecutor said they could text the next morning, Friday. They claim they called the prosecutors office all day and they were never called back. The prosecutors office decided to have a press conference and catch the clients off guard. Lawyers claim they were in contact with the parents. The last texts/phone and they were going to drive them to district court for an arraignment at 8:30am. They were absolutely going to turn themselves in and it was a matter of logistics. All the prosecutor had to do was respond to us.

Jennifer: She's 43, director of marketing, grew up in Clarkson, she's never been in serious trouble with the law, drunk driving conviction from college - any conviction is a misdemeanor and is old. She retained the lawyers had she not planned to turn themselves in and fight the case. The facts are incomplete - they didn't give the child the gun and knew that the was going to do this. The gun was actual locked. There is far more going on than what the court has been made aware of. They would agree to a GPS monitor, and conditions. But it doesn't warrant a $500,000 bond. Asked for $50-100K bond. Clients will fight the charges and they are devastated just as everyone else. Ask the court to set reasonable bond.

James: 45 years old, prior conviction from 2004 - any convictions were misdemeanors, no substance abuse issues, he is diabetic, gainfully employed.

Prosecutor's response: The court hasn't heard all the facts, bc I have an ethical duty to not disclose everything.

No one needs permission to go to the court or the police department to turn themselves in. The whole country knew these charges were coming, how would they be surprised. yes, this is in the media because 4 children were injured.

Court:

The court has some concern about flight risk and public safety. If they do post bond, they have to hand over any and all weapons.

$500K Bail for Jennifer Crumbley. If she can make that, there are conditions in place.
$500K Bail for James Crumbley. Same conditions.


Attorney Lehman - She didn't know that there was a 4pm arraignment, and the other attorney didn't know either.

 

[Loveallmyhorsesdogsandcats]

Or, if the school officials had asked him these things before his parents arrived, conducted the search, and called the police-- which they could have done.

The school is limited do that because they need reasonable suspicion. They could have also questioned him if they were not to intrusive if he was suspected of breaking a school code or the law. But, some school administrators are more in fear of parents/people getting furious about their actions than they are of acting. My guess is that this family would have told them to not question him further until they arrived. Given their familial response to the looking up ammunition, they were probably a family that school administrators dreaded dealing with.

The parents could have asked him if he had a weapon. I suspect these parents would not have asked because if they did he might have gotten into "trouble" with the school, which they would have wanted to avoid.

What none of us know is if the gun was in his backpack or hidden somewhere on the campus. I think he may have hidden it rather than keep it in his pack.

In my opinion the drawing, was enough to warrant searching his backpack, gave them all the reasonable cause they needed. In no way do I believe they did not have action they could’ve taken, that their hands were tied. I have wondered if the gun was still in his backpack or perhaps he had stashed it in the bathroom. At least if the school had tried to do something it wouldn’t be pure negligence on their part. As it stands now, in my opinion, the school is going to be facing major civil suits for their lack of action. His drawing was literally a cry for help and that cry was not answered by either his parents or the school. MOO

 

[Cool Cats]

@ClaireNC Here you go

Notes from the Arraignment:

* Jen. C - Involuntary manslaughter - 4 charges, punishable of up at 15 year in prison and/or $7,500 fine. She has plead Not Guilty to all four counts. She's crying.

* Same charges for James C. James also plead Not Guilty on all 4 counts. He sounded somber.


Probable cause conference is on Dec. 14 at 1:15pm.
Preliminary Examination Dec 22 at 9:45am

Both are in person.

Bail Discussion

Prosecution: There is a strong likelihood of conviction. The gun was purchased for his son. Mrs. Crumbley went to the shooting range with her son and posted on social media that this gun was his christmas present. Both Defendants were aware that he was searing ammunition - Mrs. Crumbley texted "LOL I'm not mad, next time don't get caught." On the 30th, they were called to the school regarding a drawing that depicted acts of violence, they chose not to disclose to the school that he might be dangerous, that he had access to a gun, and didn't take him home. After the active shooter situation, she texted him "Ethan, Don't Do It." Mr. Crumbly checked his gun. They could have stopped it, they didn't secure the weapon and allowed him free access to it. Purpose of bond is to further court appearances. Clearly, the defendants didn't tell their lawyers the truth, they didn't turn themselves in. They withdrew $4K from Rochester which is very close. They weren't out of town. Instead they fled, and they were eventually tracked down because a witness saw it. They were found locked in a room hiding. They aren't people that can be assured to return to court on their own.

The court should also consider members of community to vouch for the defendants. There was no one there to vouch for them.

Defendants’ Attorney: She texted the prosecutor they could talk. Prosecutor said they could text the next morning, Friday. They claim they called the prosecutors office all day and they were never called back. The prosecutors office decided to have a press conference and catch the clients off guard. Lawyers claim they were in contact with the parents. The last texts/phone and they were going to drive them to district court for an arraignment at 8:30am. They were absolutely going to turn themselves in and it was a matter of logistics. All the prosecutor had to do was respond to us.

Jennifer: She's 43, director of marketing, grew up in Clarkson, she's never been in serious trouble with the law, drunk driving conviction from college - any conviction is a misdemeanor and is old. She retained the lawyers had she not planned to turn themselves in and fight the case. The facts are incomplete - they didn't give the child the gun and knew that the was going to do this. The gun was actual locked. There is far more going on than what the court has been made aware of. They would agree to a GPS monitor, and conditions. But it doesn't warrant a $500,000 bond. Asked for $50-100K bond. Clients will fight the charges and they are devastated just as everyone else. Ask the court to set reasonable bond.

James: 45 years old, prior conviction from 2004 - any convictions were misdemeanors, no substance abuse issues, he is diabetic, gainfully employed.

Prosecutor's response: The court hasn't heard all the facts, bc I have an ethical duty to not disclose everything.

No one needs permission to go to the court or the police department to turn themselves in. The whole country knew these charges were coming, how would they be surprised. yes, this is in the media because 4 children were injured.

Court:

The court has some concern about flight risk and public safety. If they do post bond, they have to hand over any and all weapons.

$500K Bail for Jennifer Crumbley. If she can make that, there are conditions in place.
$500K Bail for James Crumbley. Same conditions.


Attorney Lehman - She didn't know that there was a 4pm arraignment, and the other attorney didn't know either.

Thanks for putting this altogether.

 

[kaen]

At that point, Ethan might have felt cornered. If the gun was loaded, Ethan could have shot both of his parents and school personnel in attendance at the meeting. He might very well have shot himself.

Generally, when a school administrator is searching a bag, the student is not asked to open it. The bag is taken and the administrator opens and inspects on their own outside of the arm reach of the student. Or, in my district, the school resource officer is the one who inspects the bag, locker, etc. again the student does not have access to the item being searched although they may witness the search.