Nancy Grace Monday 12/8/2008

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KC's grandmother and/or aunt dabbled in this idea in their daily letters stating that this illness is on George's side of the family.

Something IS wrong with KC whether it is bi-polar disorder or all of the other diagnoses given to her by all of the shrinks on NG. No normal person acts like her. Does anyone remember really early on when NG or GVS asked CA if KC had any mental problems and CA responded that she didn't know any 22 year old who didn't have problems. If a mental disease is on George's side of the family, I have to add that it is on CA's side too, even if it starts with her. CA is not normal either. She lies and admits it but says she has a reason. Like mother like daughter. Her own mother said she wasn't acting like herself in an e-mail to her. If you haven't read the e-mails going back and forth between KC's grandmother and great-aunt, please do. They are at the end of the second batch of materials in the KC forensic cell phone records thread. Very interesting.

Maybe KC should be given meds. I wonder if they have been offered to her by the shrink that she sees everyday, but can't open up to?

I agree,

There is definitely something wrong with Casey.

I'm not exactly sure what her "Issues" are but she is far from normal.

Not only is Casey lacking a conscience I think she's lacking something else. She doesn't have whatever it is that prevents most people from putting their hand into the "proverbial" fire.

Look at her behavior.

She told LE that she worked for Universal & actually walked them down the hall to her imaginary office.She had to have known that they would find out she was lying & that they would confront her.

She walks into a bank & cashes a stolen check. She had to have known that were a dozen cameras pointed right at her.

She doesn't seem to have that fear that we all have. The fear of getting caught.

Most of us realize that there are consequences for our actions but Casey is either unwilling or unable to process this.

Whatever it is that's wrong with Casey she still knows right from wrong & therefore she's 100% responsible for her actions & she should be held accountable.

The legal definition of insanity is very clear & Casey does not even come close to meeting it.




My own humble opinion
 
Questions:

1. If a prisoner is diagnosed with personality/mood disorder, are they MANDATED to take meds?
2. If yes, then does this vary by state?
3. Could a prisoner refuse say chemo treatment, because it is their choice, vs. refusing psych meds that will impact their behavior in prison, and possibly during additional legal proceedings?


I don't know if a convicted prisoner can be mandated to take meds, but I do know that there are situations were a defendant on trial can be ordered to. For example, if someone is deemed incompetent to stand trial, but it can be shown that meds would remedy the situation, then the court can mandate the meds. Of course, there is a pretty high standard to meet as far as showing that the meds would definitely help.
 
I agree,

There is definitely something wrong with Casey.

I'm not exactly sure what her "Issues" are but she is far from normal.

Not only is Casey lacking a conscience I think she's lacking something else. She doesn't have whatever it is that prevents most people from putting their hand into the "proverbial" fire.

Look at her behavior.

She told LE that she worked for Universal & actually walked them down the hall to her imaginary office.She had to have known that they would find out she was lying & that they would confront her.

She walks into a bank & cashes a stolen check. She had to have known that were a dozen cameras pointed right at her.

She doesn't seem to have that fear that we all have. The fear of getting caught.

Most of us realize that there are consequences for our actions but Casey is either unwilling or unable to process this.

Whatever it is that's wrong with Casey she still knows right from wrong & therefore she's 100% responsible for her actions & she should be held accountable.

The legal definition of insanity is very clear & Casey does not even come close to meeting it.




My own humble opinion


You may be on to something... that shows a lack of control. I started searching for articles about pathological lying and I came across this interesting statement...

"Unlike other forms of lying, pathological lying appears to be unplanned and impulsive, he explained. "It is questionable whether it is always a conscious act and whether pathological liars have control over their lies."

Whether pathological liars are aware of the falsehoods embodied in their stories has substantial implications for forensic psychiatry practice—for example, it could help determine how a court may deal with pathological liars who provide false testimony while under oath. It could also affect competency determinations.

"In a hearing about competency to stand trial," Dike asked, "could it be argued that the compulsively repeated lying prevents the pathological liar from effectively assisting in his case?"

He also noted that agreement by psychiatrists on the factors that characterize pathological lying and differentiate it from related behaviors could have clinical implications as well. "

Source: http://pn.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/38/1/24


Do you think this may be the defense strategy? Try to have her declared incompetent to stand trial because she can't control her lies? If they had enough scientifically accepted support, it could work.
 
I don't know if a convicted prisoner can be mandated to take meds, but I do know that there are situations were a defendant on trial can be ordered to. For example, if someone is deemed incompetent to stand trial, but it can be shown that meds would remedy the situation, then the court can mandate the meds. Of course, there is a pretty high standard to meet as far as showing that the meds would definitely help.

TY. What sort of standards? Would that include multiple psych experts' input, perhaps only when both defense and prosecution agree that it would help the defendant?
 
TY. What sort of standards? Would that include multiple psych experts' input, perhaps only when both defense and prosecution agree that it would help the defendant?


I think there has to be a widely accepted scientific theory to back it up. You can't just have a psychiatrist guessing that "maybe" it would help. However, I'm no crim law expert so don't I don't know for sure. I just recall this as a discussion in my crim law class, so I don't really have a source to point you towards. I'm going to look and see if I can find any cases on the subject and I'll get back to you.
 
I think there has to be a widely accepted scientific theory to back it up. You can't just have a psychiatrist guessing that "maybe" it would help. However, I'm no crim law expert so don't I don't know for sure. I just recall this as a discussion in my crim law class, so I don't really have a source to point you towards. I'm going to look and see if I can find any cases on the subject and I'll get back to you.


Ok, here's a snippit from one...
This is from Tally v. Ortiz (US dist Co 2006)

In May, 1996, the state filed a motion with the trial court seeking authority to involuntarily medicate Tally with antipsychotic drugs. At a hearing on this motion, Dr. Johnson testified that since Tally's arrival at CMHI in February, 1996, Tally had been delusional and had become violent and extremely dangerous to others at CMHI. Dr. Johnson reported that Tally had been medicated on an emergency basis for eight days, and that Tally had become less dangerous while on medication. Dr. Johnson proposed continuing medication with approximately 200 mg of Haldol injected every few weeks. Vol. V, pp. 59 -- 60. On May 20, 2006, the trial court authorized this treatment plan, and approved the involuntary administration of Haldol. Vol. I, p. 279 -- 280.

In late August, 1996, Dr. Johnson reported that Tally had been restored to competence, and would remain competent [*4] as long as he continued to take Haldol. After a hearing, the trial court found that Tally had been restored to competency, and ordered that Tally continue to take Haldol, including involuntary administration, if necessary. Vol. VI, pp. 43 -- 48. The court later issued a written order. Vol. II, pp. 287 -- 288. On October 10, 1996, Tally moved to rescind the trial court's order authorizing involuntary medication. Vol. II, p. 320 -- 321. At a hearing on that motion and other motions, the court denied Tally's motion to rescind the involuntary medication order. Vol. VII, 47 -- 53.





And here are the Fl rules of crim procedure related to involuntary treatment:
RULE 3.211. COMPETENCE TO PROCEED: SCOPE OF EXAMINATION AND REPORT


(1) In determining considering the issues of involuntary hospitalization relating to treatment, the examining experts shall consider and include in their report an analysis of on the following factors:

(i) The nature and extent of the mental illness or mental retardation causing the incompetence suffered by the defendant ;

(ii) The treatment or treatments appropriate for the mental illness or mental retardation of the defendant, and an explanation of each of the possible treatment alternatives in order of choices;

(iii) The availability of acceptable treatment. If treatment is available in the community, the expert shall so state in the report;

(iv) The likelihood of the defendant attaining competence under the treatment recommended, an assessment of the probable duration of the treatment required to restore competence, and the probability that the defendant will attain competence to proceed in the foreseeable future.

(ii) Whether the defendant, because of such mental illness or mental retardation, meets the criteria for involuntary hospitalization or placement set forth by law;

(iii) Whether there is a substantial probability that the defendant will attain competence to stand trial within the foreseeable future;

(iv) The nature of the care and treatment to be afforded the defendant and its probable duration;

(v) Alternatives other than involuntary hospitalization which might be less restrictive on the defendant's liberty.
 
TY. What sort of standards? Would that include multiple psych experts' input, perhaps only when both defense and prosecution agree that it would help the defendant?

A prisoner can be forced to take psychotropic medications if they have a serious mental disorder which causes them to be a threat to themselves or other inmates. To my knowledge, the major cases on this issue have all dealt with anti-psychotic medications. The inmate has a right to an administrative hearing to determine whether involuntary medication is necessary to achieve the State's interest in securing the safety of the inmates. The ruling body in the hearing must balance the inmate's liberty interest in refusing unwanted medication with the State's interest in securing the safety of the inmate population. The inmate must be diagnosed by a psychiatrist and the diagnosis and suggested treatment are reviewed at the administrative hearing. The inmate has a right to review the information presented at the hearing and to cross-examine witnesses. If the administrative hearing ends with a determination that the inmate should be involuntarily medicated, the inmate has a right to seek judicial review of the decision. (See, Washington v. Harper)

A criminal defendant can also be involuntarily medicated for the purpose of restoring his/her competence to stand trial. The standard of review is slightly higher and the defendant is entitled to a judicial hearing on the matter. Side effects of the medication must not compromise a defendant's ability to assist in his/her own defense, etc. Cases I've read concerning the involuntary medication of criminal defendants to restore competency have also dealt with anti-psychotic medication. (See, Sell v. US)

I'm not sure if this has been completely flushed out, but the State also seems to have the authority to forcibly medicate a convicted criminal to restore his/her competence to be executed. It's unconstitutional to execute an insane person, but it might be constitutional to forcibly medicate a prisoner until s/he is sane enough to execute. (See, Singleton v. Norris)

I'll see if I can find a law review article or something which flushes out the balancing tests the decision-making body would employ in each case...
 
oops! sua sponte was on top of it while I was typing my reply. :)
This article also
does a good job explaining the Supreme Court's position on the issue and the different balancing tests which would be applied for proceedings involving inmates or criminal defendants.
 
http://ca.encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761589447/Bipolar_Disorder.html

I know two people with Bipolar disorder and it took thier families months to get a proper diagnosis,both these men were once popular and outgoing.(some said over the top)It was a shock to find out they have BP ,but now we can see "aha" thats what was wrong with them



Bipolar Disorder, mental illness in which a person’s mood alternates between extreme mania and depression. Bipolar disorder is also called manic-depressive illness. When manic, people with bipolar disorder feel intensely elated, self-important, energetic, and irritable. When depressed, they experience painful sadness, negative thinking, and indifference to things that used to bring them happiness.

In the manic phase of bipolar disorder, people feel intensely and inappropriately happy, self-important, and irritable. In this highly energized state they sleep less, have racing thoughts, and talk in rapid-fire speech that goes off in many directions. They have inflated self-esteem and confidence and may even have delusions of grandeur. Mania may make people impatient and abrasive, and when frustrated, physically abusive. They often behave in socially inappropriate ways, think irrationally, and show impaired judgment. For example, they may take airplane trips all over the country, make indecent sexual advances, and formulate grandiose plans involving indiscriminate investments of money. The self-destructive behavior of mania includes excessive gambling, buying outrageously expensive gifts, abusing alcohol or other drugs, and provoking confrontations with obnoxious or combative behavior.
 
Caller asking about whether Jeff H was questioned...can I borrow someones wall? Mine are already full of head shaped holes.
LOL! Thanks for starting my morning off with a good laugh! Nancy handles the callers pretty well for as rude as she can get (sorry Nancy but you know it's true!).

Did I tell you that we had coleslaw at work yesterday? I can't get away from this case!
 
Geez. it was a full on June 16th...yeah. having worked in the mental health field...yes... worse behaviors occur during a full moon.
I believe that more babies are born during a full moon too. That's because we are made up of a huge percentage of water and so, we get the pull of the moon.
 
if all she had ever said was "I don't know where she is" this approach would make sense (still don't think a jury would buy it but okay)... but she didn't say I don't remember. She said she gave her to a nanny that doesn't exist, took the police on a wild goosechase, and admits to be in possession of the car containing the forensics until the 27th of June. Her lying is an admission of knowledge and blows the I don't recall theory out the window.

Has she actually admitted that, i.e. as opposed to evidence gathered from her family/social group?
 
I completley agree Moe....Taking proper care of Caylee was a pain to Casey and probably she heard alot of wining for Cindy from Caylee because of just that. IMO, Casey didn't want little Caylee...but, she didn't want her mother to have Caylee either.
 
I also don't think she is Bi-Polar....I think that is a copout...She is just a cold hearted, spoiled little Biotch who was having a major temper tantrum and unfortunatley Caylee was caught in the crossfire. MOO
 
I am bipolar. Have been for over 20 years. I have 3 friends who are the same, and counseled others with the disorder. I would never, at my worst, not report my child missing for 31 days, or shop for beer and undies after her disappearance/death. I see no similarities, myself. She is too cunning, manic is very unorganized thought...


Thank you. I am in the same position as you are. My mother was also bipolar so I am intimately familiar with the disorder. KC is NOT bipolar. MOO
 
It'll never fly. Never! I'll eat my arm if Casey having Bipolar is a successful defense or if it even makes it into court as a viable defense.

There you are! I was waiting for you to jump in. I'm in total agreement. In fact I'll eat your other arm if it makes it to court. Er, um that didn't sound quite right, did it? :crazy:
 
Maybe casey was going to chloroform herself before she was "found"

I also think something went sideways with her plan and she procrastinated too long about plan b.

I have wondered this myself---except I question with the chloroform was intended for the parents (perhaps ventalation system) & baby---

jmo
 
I don't know if a convicted prisoner can be mandated to take meds, but I do know that there are situations were a defendant on trial can be ordered to. For example, if someone is deemed incompetent to stand trial, but it can be shown that meds would remedy the situation, then the court can mandate the meds. Of course, there is a pretty high standard to meet as far as showing that the meds would definitely help.

never had to much experience with psych---except what I have read & experienced first had with my mom when she was dealing with the effects of her dementia....

I know when she was in the senior behavior unit (just a nice word for psych ward)---she had options to take or not take meds--HER CHOICE--she didn't know who she was---or where she was but had that choice---they had to ASK her

She wasn't mentally competent at all---there were times there was a "medical hold" on her---before the hearing they withheld meds from her due to her "legal" rights--they couldn't just give her the meds--(she eventually took them--but it was her choice--)--even after she was declared "medically incompetent" she had the same rights---they couldn't force them on her--could offer them--but it was up to HER...(trust me for what they gave her and what it took to finally get them to work was always amazement--the frustration level! ) I did have to testify her at one point for but they still couldn't give her meds---(heck after one incident in particular--I would have taken her meds! :innocent:)

As for ca's mom and aunt--thru out the disease my sil alwas blamed MY FAMILY for any psychois that came out---at one point even diagnosing mom (who she didn't really even like)--as schizo-which to this day I am still saying to all whom as "NO" wasn't the diagnosis--she had psychosis episodes-but that was it...I think we just hear about the mental illness of the wek and since our behavior would be nothing like it --- we want to deem it that way--heck even my kids know kids who dream of being bi-polar...

imo--mental illness isn't a story of the week--it is an illness that we try and try to define but still continue to sweep it away..(shameful)--unless someone can cling to it for a "defense"

jmo
 
You may be on to something... that shows a lack of control. I started searching for articles about pathological lying and I came across this interesting statement...

"Unlike other forms of lying, pathological lying appears to be unplanned and impulsive, he explained. "It is questionable whether it is always a conscious act and whether pathological liars have control over their lies."

Whether pathological liars are aware of the falsehoods embodied in their stories has substantial implications for forensic psychiatry practice—for example, it could help determine how a court may deal with pathological liars who provide false testimony while under oath. It could also affect competency determinations.

"In a hearing about competency to stand trial," Dike asked, "could it be argued that the compulsively repeated lying prevents the pathological liar from effectively assisting in his case?"

He also noted that agreement by psychiatrists on the factors that characterize pathological lying and differentiate it from related behaviors could have clinical implications as well. "

Source: http://pn.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/38/1/24


Do you think this may be the defense strategy? Try to have her declared incompetent to stand trial because she can't control her lies? If they had enough scientifically accepted support, it could work.

Except I don't think Casey is anything more than a manipulator who lies to get what she wants. Taking the police to Universal but not Blanchard Park. The stories she told about her car running out of gas in order to gain use of someone else's vehicle. The lie she told Amy about Amy sleepwalking and hiding money from herself. All told to GAIN something. Cashing stolen checks was old hat to her. It GAINED her something and was worth the risk. Lying about a job GAINED her freedom to come and go at odd hours and depend on her parents for sitting services in the evenings. Lying about a nanny GAINED her a status with her friends as a good mom and one with a good paying job. Lying on the video taped meetings with her parents GAINED her time to dodge their questions regarding who/what/where about Caylee. I'm not sure I could see any lies she told Lee, but then they were talking strangely so I will allow that one to slide.

The point is, she lies to GAIN. She doesn't lie because she can't control herself. It has proven to be VERY lucrative for Casey to lie to get what she wants, even to the point of manipulating events so that friends don't meet each other, parents are told to stay away from a certain friend, that same friend is told to stay away from the parents. Manipulation using lies isn't a pathology. It's a skill set, an art form, a way of life. It isn't a pathology, it IS her normal condition, and it certainly isn't a disease, though definitely what results is toxic.

She is a liarpants. She likes it. It gets her what she wants and she doesn't care what it costs anyone else (though she does recognize that it will because she creates a cover story like sleepwalking). She moves her friends and family around the chessboard of Caseyland like the Red Queen in Alice in Wonderland. She's painting the roses red!
 
oops! sua sponte was on top of it while I was typing my reply. :)
This article also
does a good job explaining the Supreme Court's position on the issue and the different balancing tests which would be applied for proceedings involving inmates or criminal defendants.

Thank you both very much, Nancy and Sua Sponte. Very helpful.

I don't see psychosis in KC, so it sounds like they wouldn't likely force her to take meds involuntarily. Maybe she'll take them voluntarily.
 

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