NH NH - Allenstown, Adult Female & 3 Children, found Nov'85 & May'00

[ice190]

Please don't laugh at me, but I was looking through previous posts and read that the woman might not be the mother, but on the mother's side, with a large gap between siblings, it got me thinking.
Instead of just the three children being the result of a Cleveland situation, the woman as as well! After all, Fritzl's oldest 'grandchild' was 19.
In other words, girl could have got locked up (latest time the early sixties), had the woman, at least 15 years later had the other girls. I'm just throwing that out there. Of course, not only does that make it near impossible to find out who the ORIGINAL victim was, (unless THEY didn't have DNA stored, as in the examples I'll put below), but she and/or the killer of these four could

I'm not laughing, I brought up literally the same thing on another forum. Think of all the sex trafficking victims there are right now, American and foreign, cross borders and all that. Who's honestly going to say none of those women and teens are getting pregnant, then who's going to say that there's not at last one sick * keeping the baby, for, dare I say worse? What could have Castro done with Amanda's daughter Jocelyn, especially if his situation got tight?

The one child who may or may not be related paternally could very will be another abuser's child our another victim's. It could be at the level of the original victim's grandchild is now a victim, just like slavery as it basically is.

I'm sure there's multiple similar situations out there that are more recent.

 

[Earth]

I honestly think this could be a lead.

Fritzl let his newborn son die and tossed his body in a furnace, but when his 19-year-old daughter was ill, with Elisabeth's pleading, she went to hospital. So he must have wanted her for something. Same with Castro and Jocelyn and possibly Garrido and Jaycee's daughters. Maybe he would have his way if Jaycee stayed with him for even a few more months! It gives me chills just thinking that.

As for where the victim came from, a lot of people fled Europe from Hitler and Stalin, maybe the 'Albanian' link could be there. Someone tell them 'oh yeah, I've got a house you can hide in/hide your daughter, in the States, it'll be fine'.

The overbite is probably an incest thing, if my theory is right. After all, Queen Victoria probably had hemophilia from the Royal Family's endless marriages to cousins. (I had a chart on my wall of the last 1,000 years and believe me, it looked more like a canopy than a tree) Though I don't know if any tests can prove incest.

 

[emeraldine]

Many, many people have an overbite, especially Caucasians. I don't think it would have anything to do with incest(necessarily).

 

[Earth]

Just a thought.

 

[carbuff]

Incest and inbreeding aren't the same thing.

 

[Earth]

Personally, I think that these three are the best options.

Patricia Spencer, 16, Michigan, 1969; Lynne Schulze, 18, 1971, Vermont ; Dorothy Bois, 22, 1973, New Hampshire.

Patricia I have already mentioned numerous times, but I have some firm reasons to believe Lynne or Dorothy is JD.

Lynne was 18 when she vanished on her campus in Middlebury. She was getting her pen for an exam. Literally, just crossing campus. Her parents weren’t told for a week. Even in 1971, that was a bit stupid.

Somewhere else on this forum has suggested Ted Bundy as a possible suspect, but I never believed so – I don’t know why.

Lynne resembles the JD, she’s the right age (if the woman died at the same time as the two children in the second barrel, that would have been 1980-82; Lynne would have been 27-29).

Dorothy was 22 when she walked out of her home in Nashua (or so her husband says), just 41 minutes from Bear Brook. In fact, out of ALL the missing women I listed that didn’t have DNA stored, she disappeared closest to Allenstown. I was looking at her photo a few days ago and realised for the first time, she wasn’t smoking something, she was pushing her hand toward the camera.

Because she walked out from her husband, she may have been scared that if she was caught, she’d be sent back, or maybe she was so sick of her life that she just walked out.

That was in 1973. She could have met someone else around that time and had the two girls with him. If she got pregnant almost immediately in 1973, then the child would be 8 in 1982.

It could explain why she wasn’t reported missing a second time – even if it wasn’t a Dugard situation, she would have had no legal documents about her new identity.

 

[Roselvr]

Personally, I think that these three are the best options.

Patricia Spencer, 16, Michigan, 1969; Lynne Schulze, 18, 1971, Vermont ; Dorothy Bois, 22, 1973, New Hampshire.

Patricia I have already mentioned numerous times, but I have some firm reasons to believe Lynne or Dorothy is JD.

Lynne was 18 when she vanished on her campus in Middlebury. She was getting her pen for an exam. Literally, just crossing campus. Her parents weren’t told for a week. Even in 1971, that was a bit stupid.

Somewhere else on this forum has suggested Ted Bundy as a possible suspect, but I never believed so – I don’t know why.

Lynne resembles the JD, she’s the right age (if the woman died at the same time as the two children in the second barrel, that would have been 1980-82; Lynne would have been 27-29).

Dorothy was 22 when she walked out of her home in Nashua (or so her husband says), just 41 minutes from Bear Brook. In fact, out of ALL the missing women I listed that didn’t have DNA stored, she disappeared closest to Allenstown. I was looking at her photo a few days ago and realised for the first time, she wasn’t smoking something, she was pushing her hand toward the camera.

Because she walked out from her husband, she may have been scared that if she was caught, she’d be sent back, or maybe she was so sick of her life that she just walked out.

That was in 1973. She could have met someone else around that time and had the two girls with him. If she got pregnant almost immediately in 1973, then the child would be 8 in 1982.

It could explain why she wasn’t reported missing a second time – even if it wasn’t a Dugard situation, she would have had no legal documents about her new identity.

Will see what I can do to get a sample for Patricia Spencer. I made an album for her & Pam on Never Forget Me; I know she has a sister. I don't know why there is no sample there yet

Lynne Schulze Status: Sample available - Not yet submitted
Patricia Spencer Status: Sample is currently not available
Dorothy Bois Status: Sample is currently not available

 

[Earth]

Thank you. It's just so horrible that not only has somebody done this to children, but they've been unidentified for so long.

 

[Roselvr]

Patricia Spencer's sister gave DNA to their local police. I passed it on to Brenda Galarza

 

[Earth]

OK. Hope this could have an outcome. Fingers crossed!

Yesterday, I was just thinking about this family that just seemed to appear suddenly without any sign of who they were. Is anyone missing them? Did the girls' father do it?

Did anyone know they existed, at least in the States? Did the oldest girl (and possibly the second) have classmates that miss them? Teachers? Neighbors?

Did the woman ever watch the moon landing or was involved in the anti-war protests? Did she see the kids in from school every day?

Did the kids hide under the duvets when they heard Daddy hit Mommy?

Did she plan to run away with them to a woman's shelter or something before he killed them? Were any of them aware when they died?

Were the children the result of assault, Dugard situation or otherwise? Had they ever left their house or back garden or wherever they lived? Was there another woman down there with them, the second girls' mother? Why wasn't SHE with the bodies? Is she still out there in Bear Brook? (I've seen both Hampshires and trust me, it's easy to get lost) Did she die giving birth to the girl? Is she still alive herself, maybe unaware of what happened to her girl?

Maybe the guy killed them because he was going to move and didn't want to take them all with him. Maybe the second woman was a 'favorite' like Amanda was with Castro? Maybe she'll one day read about the bodies' identification and realize what he did to them.

There are so many questions out there that need answering and this is one of the saddest cases I have come across, which is perhaps why I keep returning to it.

 

[Earth]

OK, apparently the following have their DNA submitted now, so I guess it rules them out.

https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/20169/61 - Alice Reeves

https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/8784/28 - Dennis Sullivan

https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/26943/158 - Diane Collins

https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/27748/210 - Susan Curtis

https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/3219/272 - Loy Evitts

Oh, Helen Harrington's profile seems to have been taken down for some reason. I actually feel better when I read their DNA hasn't matched up with any bodies, because it gives some hope that they're alive.

 

[Earth]

Mary Weekly's DNA has been completed, so that rules her out.

 

[Ozoner]

Can anyone tell me when the Bear Brook Gardens Mobile Home Park was built? Could the bodies have been dumped before that trailer park was built?

If not, then I think there's a good chance that the killer had some connection to the trailer park and may have lived there at some point. Maybe he killed his family just before moving of the park and that's why no one noticed that they were missing.

Does anyone know how LE determined that the earliest date for the murders was '77?

 

[Earth]

Can anyone tell me when the Bear Brook Gardens Mobile Home Park was built? Could the bodies have been dumped before that trailer park was built?

If not, then I think there's a good chance that the killer had some connection to the trailer park and may have lived there at some point. Maybe he killed his family just before moving of the park and that's why no one noticed that they were missing.

Does anyone know how LE determined that the earliest date for the murders was '77?

I agree, I think 1980-1982 is a closer approximation.

Oh, Marcia Joyce has had her DNA completed, so that rules her out.

I personally think the following are likely to be the woman.

Patricia Spencer. (as mentioned prior)

Lynne Schulze. (as mentioned earlier)

Dorothy Bois (as mentioned earlier)

Nancy Wilcox. https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/27747/186 I don't think Bundy killed her. I think it was simply a 'I don't care who killed her, but I'm taking the blame so people notice me'. The nose and facial structure seems to stand out. In 1982, she would have been 24.

Wilma Vermaas. http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/v/vermaas_wilma.html Does bear some resemblance to the deceased. This is difficult, as there is only one picture of her, but the nose and cheekbones stick out. In 1982, she would have been 30.

Also, if the deceased showed Native American ancestry, could it be possible to see who lived in the trailer park and was Native American?

We identify the woman, we identify the family.

 

[Earth]

Right, I revised the list and I think these women fit, as none of them have DNA in CODIS and the timeframe fits. I am, however, a little unsure on some of them.

https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/543/85 - Gloria Baird, 23, 1969 (Would have been 33 in 1979/1980)

https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/10763/57 - Ann Miller, 21, 1966 (Would have been 33 in 1978/1979)

https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/10766/58 - Renee Bruhl, 19, 1966 (Would have been 33 in 1980/1981. Vanished with Ann Miller, perhaps explain the non-relation to the second child?)

https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/13067/82 - Carmen Hallock, 22, 1969 (Would have been 33 in 1980/1981)

https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/6975/108 - Lynne Schulze, 18, 1971 (Would have been 32 in 1985)

http://www.missingkids.com/poster/NCMC/1175069/1 - Patricia Spencer, 16, 1969 (Would have been 32 in 1985)

https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/2508/109 - Elizabeth Lande, 21, 1971 (Would have been 33 in 1983/1984)

https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/26809/131 - Rory Kesinger, 24, 1973 (Would have been 33 in 1982/1983)

https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/1817/148 - Dorothy Bois, 22, 1973 (Would have been 33 in 1984/1985)

https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/11936/149 - Barbara Aleksivich, 24, 1973 (Would have been 33 in 1983/1984)

https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/21576/163 - Mary Radford, 22-25, 1974 (Would surgery have been visible?)

https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/14488/175 - Carlene Brown, 19, 1974 (Would have been 30 in 1985)

https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/4594/181 - Barbara Glueckert, 14, 1974 (Would have been 25 in 1985)

https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/27747/186 - Nancy Wilcox, 15, 1974 (Would have been 26 in 1985)

https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/8530/217 - Janis Sanders, 25, 1975 (Would have been 33 in 1983)

https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/4188/232 - Sallie Reed, 22, 1976 (Would have been 31 in 1985)

https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/5489/239 - Wilma Vermaas, 23, 1976 (Would have been 32 in 1985. Would teeth be visible?)

https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/7783/240 - Delores Stanton, 21, 1976 (Would have been 30 in 1985)

https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/23979/243 - JoAnn Benner, 21, 1976 (Would have been 30 in 1985)

https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/4576/252 - Cynthia Kinney, 16, 1976 (Would have been 25 in 1985)

The others mentioned on a previous post have their DNA entered since I posted, are too old or vanished later than 1977 (the oldest girl is 8 at the youngest and died in 1985 at the latest).

In case you can't tell, I love making lists.

 

[JusticeWillBeServed]

Thirty years later, N.H. murders of woman, 3 girls remain a mystery

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2015/11/09/thirty-years-later-murders-woman-girls-continues-baffle/I7n4d1NKACqfFhnIwAnVVP/story.html

On the 30th anniversary of the first discovery, the killings of the woman and three children — whose ages and identities are unknown — remain one of New Hampshire’s most baffling mysteries.

But the investigation continues, with new information expected next week.

Members of the New Hampshire State Police, the FBI, and the National Center for Missing & Exploited Children met last week about the case and are in the process of reviewing new scientific data, including isotope analysis of the victims’ hair, bones, and teeth, that might pinpoint what region they lived in based on the drinking water they consumed. They plan to announce the results at a press conference Nov. 17.

“I think we are going to be able to give the public a much better picture of the relationship between these four victims and where they originated from,” said Carol Schweitzer, a senior forensic specialist at the National Center for Missing & Exploited Children.

 

[leonhardt]

I was wondering if someone posted about this! I'm glad this case is being picked up and looked at by LE again. And I'm excited to hear about what they've found. A mother and her children all going missing at once? There's someone who knows something.

 

[LookingForClues]

Thirty years later, N.H. murders of woman, 3 girls remain a mystery

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2015/11/09/thirty-years-later-murders-woman-girls-continues-baffle/I7n4d1NKACqfFhnIwAnVVP/story.html

Also from this article:

The center, which posted three-dimensional facial reconstructions of the victims on its missingkids.org website three years ago, is also poised to release new, more lifelike computerized images — similar to the type recently used to help identify a child’s body found on Deer Island as Bella Bond of Dorchester.

And at the end of the article, a bit about Carl and Websleuths, as well as Carl's reconstruction of the victims.

 

[Jake479]

I really hope this family is identified and their killer is brought to justice. RIP Bear Brook Jane Does

 

[Boomeroreo]

Has anyone contact all the Native American tribes in the area that may bring back someone's memory or go states wide and check with other NA tribes?