Deceased/Not Found NY - Etan Patz, 6, New York, 25 May 1979 #1 *P. Hernandez guilty*

[fascination]

Hi - I just finished reading an article that contained a small detail that is pretty significant. I don't think I had come across this bit of info before - and I've done a fair amount of reading on this case over the past 50 hours (i.e. the old Vanity Fair article, etc.):

In the neighborhood Saturday, local resident Roberto Monticello recalled Ramos as a malignant presence on Prince St.

“He was the bum around here,” said Monticello, 46, who was a teen when Patz disappeared. “He was aggressively panhandling.”

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/-article-1.1065529#ixzz1sjSJlzlo

So here is a witness who is establishing Ramos' regular presence on the street on which Etan lived. Hmmm.

Then, there are the recent reports that Ramos worked for Othniel Miller - or may have worked for Miller. So, which was it - was he a "malignant" panhandler, or an employee of the neighborhood handyman? Perhaps both? I guess it's possible that he both bummed on Prince Street, and presented himself to Miller for odd jobs.

But if that's the case - shouldn't there have been more neighborhood witnesses who remembered Ramos' presence? Maybe there are some witness statements that authorities have been withholding all of these years - but so far, I haven't encountered anything else that establishes Ramos as a presence in the Prince St. area.

I'm still wondering how likely it is that Ramos was in the right place at exactly the right time. Even if he did panhandle in the area or did some odds & ends for Miller - he would have had to have been in the right spot bright and early - some time around 8:00 a.m.. Not sure how many "slackers" are morning people - would he have been a mile from his home at that time?

Then, he would have had to have successfully lured Etan in an inconspicuous manner. How familiar was Etan with this guy?

I did read somewhere that LE believed or theorized that Ramos might have been stalking the woman he was "dating" around that time. If so, I guess that would be a powerful motive to be in the area at that time - since this woman had been walking Etan to school. (It would be interesting to know more specifics about how the woman did this job - i.e. did she pick Etan up at his home, or at the bus stop? Was Etan the only person she walked to school, or was he just one of several?) Also - I'm no expert on pedophiles - but I would imagine that some/many of them "get off" on such stalking behavior as secretly observing children at a bus stop. Maybe this guy had a strong sexual motivation to have been lurking in the area at that time (to which he was possibly "introduced" through his girlfriend). But then - exactly where along the path would that place Ramos? Would it place him closer to the bus stop, where it would have been more difficult to lure Etan unnoticed? I wonder how many children were already at the bus stop by the time Etan would have gotten near it.

Maybe I need to read "After Etan" - I thought I saw somewhere where it could be bought as an ebook.

 

[epiphany]

Snipped

The retired SoHo handyman suspected in the death of Etan Patz was visited Saturday for the second time in three days by FBI agents probing the reheated cold case.

Snipped

The FBI also questioned a man named Jesse Snell, who had done work for Miller, as part of the recent probe, law enforcement sources said.

Miller’s daughter told the Daily News this week that the FBI was trying to track down several of her father’s former employees.

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york...ller-33-years-article-1.1065531#ixzz1sjmPQKPT

 

[epiphany]

Miller insisted that he had an alibi for the day of that incident, although the source said his story could not be corroborated or refuted by the feds. And the niece has never been located.

Another source said the former Phyllis Miller told the feds her story for the first time back in the late 1980s. But her former spouse was never regarded as a suspect until the last few weeks.

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york...ller-33-years-article-1.1065531#ixzz1sjnAosnO

 

[fascination]

Miller insisted that he had an alibi for the day of that incident, although the source said his story could not be corroborated or refuted by the feds. And the niece has never been located.

Another source said the former Phyllis Miller told the feds her story for the first time back in the late 1980s. But her former spouse was never regarded as a suspect until the last few weeks.

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york...ller-33-years-article-1.1065531#ixzz1sjnAosnO

BBM. Very weird that the Millers (or the family of Miller's ex-wife - not sure if the niece was Miller's blood-relative, or Miller's ex-wife's blood-relative) would completely lose track of a family member - and that skilled LE cannot locate her.

 

[DevilsPlayThing]

I'm still wondering how likely it is that Ramos was in the right place at exactly the right time. Even if he did panhandle in the area or did some odds & ends for Miller - he would have had to have been in the right spot bright and early - some time around 8:00 a.m.. Not sure how many "slackers" are morning people - would he have been a mile from his home at that time?

I don't think slacker really describes Ramos. The girlfriend who called him Michael I think described to LE her and her son going to dinner at Ramos home. Table made up nicely - parachute-like material hung decoratively from ceiling. She said her son was so happy after that dinner with him - that is why she kept seeing him. Also Ramos knew when Rainbow Meetings would be in other states. He had purchased a school bus. Was traveling with 2 others. And made sure to be at the Rainbow Meetings for the short times they would be taking place. And plan and make it to the next one. He was described as selling items on the streets. And doing odd jobs. After Etan went missing he came into a large amount of money and traveled overseas. He was in a branch of the Military. One article confirmed the time he spent and his accomplishments regarding Military during the Cuban Missle Crisis. Most articles say they cannot confirm - I remember one did - cannot remember which article though. I do not recall reading about any drug use - 8 am might be still up from night before. But one article went into detail his psych - most likely not a big sleeper. If not medicated and having psych problems - unusual sleep patterns - lack of sleep is a symptom. Plus he seems to have been on a quest for taking sex from kids. Maybe could be lurking anytime. If ex-military maybe he got some money from there ? No need to work - more time to wreak havoc.

The one thing I do wonder.. he managed to travel all over. Molester kids left and right. On the bus. The girlfriends son. Under the drainpipe. Rainbow Meetings. The boy traveling with him - that LE at one time thought was Etan age 13. But he gave these kids toys and candy or whatever and molsetered. Was free for years after Etan went missing. Why would he kill once only ? Some kill once only because they get caught then put in prison. Ramos was not put in prison for years after. And what about before Etan.. Any missing can be tied to Ramos ? Why Etan only ?

 

[wfgodot]

Mere $1K halted ’79 excavation (New York Post)

It would have cost the city as little as $1,000 to repair a concrete basement that officials considered digging up in their 1979 search for Etan Patz.
---
When Etan vanished, investigators questioned handyman Othniel Miller about the basement floor, which looked freshly poured. He said they could dig it up, but they passed when told they’d have to fix it.

Construction industry workers told The Post that patch-up work would have cost “maybe $1,000” at the time. That would be about $3,000 today.
---

a bit more at link above

 

[wfgodot]

Love those tabloid headlines.

Playroom eyed as hell cellar (New York Post)

---
The basement would have been familiar territory to the Patz family. Etan’s older sister, Shira, was a play-group member, [Judy Reichler, one of the founding parents] recalled.

But by 1979, the basement was also the domain of Othniel Miller, the now-75-year-old handyman known for doing odd jobs around the neighborhood who emerged this past week as a prime suspect in the case.

“He was a very good craftsman,” said Steve Kuzma, 78, building manager of nearby 133 Wooster St.
---
“Every time I went down there, there was a different wall,” Kuzma told The Post. “It was a maze. [Miller] probably put in some of those walls.”
---

more at link above

 

[carole]

I think probably one thing that stalled looking closer at the basement in 1979, was that they were looking for an live abducted child and not a murdered child.

JMHO

 

[katydid23]

But it seems odd that no other neighborhood kids have come forward to accuse Miller of anything over the years. It seems that if a handyman is a twisted pedophile, and is capable of killing a little 6 yr old and burying him in the basement, that he would have more victims in the past 30 years.

Maybe he killed them all, but are there many kids in the surrounding area missing?

 

[wfgodot]

Post article about the sad ending of life for the lead detective on the Patz case:

Lead sleuth’s torment ended in suicide

Every day at 7:30 a.m., the lead detective in the search for Etan Patz retraced the 6-year-old’s steps from Prince Street to the West Broadway bus stop — desperate for any clues in the riveting case that ultimately consumed his life.

Wearing a suit and tie, clutching the doe-eyed child’s picture, Missing Persons Detective William Butler spent four years chatting up everyone he met as he plowed the same course along the gritty downtown blocks.
---
“I think he’s still nearby,” he told The Post at the time. “I feel we’re going to come out good on this.

“By now, I feel like he’s my own son and you can’t give up.”

But eventually he did.
---

more at New York Post link above

 

[DevilsPlayThing]

Mere $1K halted ’79 excavation (New York Post)

a bit more at link above

I know it has been reported that is the reason. I will never believe that is the true reason. They put at least one helicopter in the air over Prince Street in the afternoon / evening Etan went missing before the rain started falling. The cost each time they put each one in the air is over 1000$. They were going to bring bloodhounds or the bloodhounds did come but the rain fell. + The trip to Israel - Not sure the timing there but the choppers in the air was day of. After reading that the Assistant US Attorney stated MILLIONS had been spent on this case I will never believe 1000$ was standing in the way of anything. Especially if they had Miller's permission. Which seems unlikely. LE would goto the building owner for permission. Miller did not own the basement - or am I wrong about that...

 

[wfgodot]

I assume Miller rented the space, but I don't know.

 

[fascination]

I don't think slacker really describes Ramos. The girlfriend who called him Michael I think described to LE her and her son going to dinner at Ramos home. Table made up nicely - parachute-like material hung decoratively from ceiling. She said her son was so happy after that dinner with him - that is why she kept seeing him. Also Ramos knew when Rainbow Meetings would be in other states. He had purchased a school bus. Was traveling with 2 others. And made sure to be at the Rainbow Meetings for the short times they would be taking place. And plan and make it to the next one. He was described as selling items on the streets. And doing odd jobs. After Etan went missing he came into a large amount of money and traveled overseas. He was in a branch of the Military. One article confirmed the time he spent and his accomplishments regarding Military during the Cuban Missle Crisis. Most articles say they cannot confirm - I remember one did - cannot remember which article though. I do not recall reading about any drug use - 8 am might be still up from night before. But one article went into detail his psych - most likely not a big sleeper. If not medicated and having psych problems - unusual sleep patterns - lack of sleep is a symptom. Plus he seems to have been on a quest for taking sex from kids. Maybe could be lurking anytime. If ex-military maybe he got some money from there ? No need to work - more time to wreak havoc.

The one thing I do wonder.. he managed to travel all over. Molester kids left and right. On the bus. The girlfriends son. Under the drainpipe. Rainbow Meetings. The boy traveling with him - that LE at one time thought was Etan age 13. But he gave these kids toys and candy or whatever and molsetered. Was free for years after Etan went missing. Why would he kill once only ? Some kill once only because they get caught then put in prison. Ramos was not put in prison for years after. And what about before Etan.. Any missing can be tied to Ramos ? Why Etan only ?

Ahh - yes - good points all. I guess I temporarily forgot about people having their individual "body-clocks" (I know I couldn't have thought that I was the only one who had shifting circadian rhythms - lol).

The question of "Why Etan only" has crossed my mind, as well - in regards to both Ramos and Miller. Particularly Miller - although info has since emerged that casts Miller in a little more of a "capable" light. Still - you'd think that someone who would have been so driven to molest and kill Ethan would have more of a "record" for displaying pedophilic/molestation tendencies. Maybe there are other incidents that have never been unearthed - who knows? I wonder when he left Jamaica? I've wondered if he ever victimized anyone in Jamaica. Maybe he has some skeletons that he left on that island.

But as far as "Why Etan only" - one thing that's crossed my mind is that perhaps Etan was indomitable in some manner - and/or somehow indicated that he would report the rape/molestation (attempt). Or - perhaps the perp realized that he had somehow gone "too far" - that the violation would be too obvious to Etan's caring parents and to authorities (i.e. bleeding, bruising).

One impression I've gotten from looking at several photos of Etan is that he looks like a sharp, sharp kid - even precocious. Maybe looks are deceiving - but to me, he doesn't look as though he would be an easy victim - especially for a 6 y/o. Perhaps the perp realized this when it was too late.

Ramos' coming into a lot of money after Etan's disappearance is obviously suspicious. Did he sell Etan? Would he have had the skill to do that on short notice? Did he have access to a car at that time?

It seems that the longer that Etan was alive after 8:00 a.m. on May 23 - and the farther he got from that block on Prince St. - the more likely something would have been spotted by witnesses....the more likely someone would have seen/heard something. Unless a moving vehicle snatched him up, I'm skeptical as to whether he ever made it far from his own doorstep.

Another possibility that someone brought up much earlier in the thread is that Miller is guilty - but not in the manner we are speculating. Maybe Etan got in the way of some hazardous machinery in that workshop - was accidentally killed - and Miller panicked, big-time. But could he keep that secret after all these years without breaking down at some point? If he is guilty of anything - could he have fooled LE for as long as he has?

 

[4Jacy]

I had never heard about this little boy and this case until it was reported on NG Thursday night. At the time this happened I was rather young, raising my children, listening to music, et al.

Now that I know about it, I can only feel compassion for the parents, especially since they still live in the neighborhood, hear the sounds and see the assembled crowds. What anguish they must be going through. God bless this family.

 

[DevilsPlayThing]

Post article about the sad ending of life for the lead detective on the Patz case:

Lead sleuth’s torment ended in suicide

more at New York Post link above

Aw yes this detective was consumed with the case. I never knew of his fate. How terribly awful. He wanted so much to bring Etan home. I wonder what he was dealing with at work. If he was in touch with the Assistant US Attorney that was also working the case - different agency though. Wonder if they were sharing info - if they agreed on theories and the way the investigation was being handled. If he even met the AUSA. How sad to picture this detective walking the streets alone. There are pictures included in many old articles of him doing so. Rest in Peace Detective Butler.

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/video/#!/on-air/as-seen-on/Archive-Interview--Etan-Patz-Detective/148155795
Awww. Short video of Detective Butler and the Mother of Etan + the neighborhood. It is old video. I remember someone in thread said the missing sometimes end up in landfill. Early in video a green trash bin can be seen. My heart sank.

 

[DevilsPlayThing]

Ahh - yes - good points all. I guess I temporarily forgot about people having their individual "body-clocks" (I know I couldn't have thought that I was the only one who had shifting circadian rhythms - lol).

The question of "Why Etan only" has crossed my mind, as well - in regards to both Ramos and Miller. Particularly Miller - although info has since emerged that casts Miller in a little more of a "capable" light. Still - you'd think that someone who would have been so driven to molest and kill Ethan would have more of a "record" for displaying pedophilic/molestation tendencies. Maybe there are other incidents that have never been unearthed - who knows? I wonder when he left Jamaica? I've wondered if he ever victimized anyone in Jamaica. Maybe he has some skeletons that he left on that island.

But as far as "Why Etan only" - one thing that's crossed my mind is that perhaps Etan was indomitable in some manner - and/or somehow indicated that he would report the rape/molestation (attempt). Or - perhaps the perp realized that he had somehow gone "too far" - that the violation would be too obvious to Etan's caring parents and to authorities (i.e. bleeding, bruising).

One impression I've gotten from looking at several photos of Etan is that he looks like a sharp, sharp kid - even precocious. Maybe looks are deceiving - but to me, he doesn't look as though he would be an easy victim - especially for a 6 y/o. Perhaps the perp realized this when it was too late.

Ramos' coming into a lot of money after Etan's disappearance is obviously suspicious. Did he sell Etan? Would he have had the skill to do that on short notice? Did he have access to a car at that time?

It seems that the longer that Etan was alive after 8:00 a.m. on May 23 - and the farther he got from that block on Prince St. - the more likely something would have been spotted by witnesses....the more likely someone would have seen/heard something. Unless a moving vehicle snatched him up, I'm skeptical as to whether he ever made it far from his own doorstep.

Another possibility that someone brought up much earlier in the thread is that Miller is guilty - but not in the manner we are speculating. Maybe Etan got in the way of some hazardous machinery in that workshop - was accidentally killed - and Miller panicked, big-time. But could he keep that secret after all these years without breaking down at some point? If he is guilty of anything - could he have fooled LE for as long as he has?

I really do not know what to think anymore. The Assistant US Attorney was searching for a live Etan - doing a DNA test on at least one known kid - and keeping updated models of how Etan would look as he aged. At the same time searching waters and underground for a not live Etan. That Penn State guy molestered many children - never killed. Maybe that is how Ramos is. Maybe if Etan is not home it is because he cannot come home. Maybe someone who is not being named did harm to Etan - and others. Maybe that is why not solved. Going in circles with the same suspect for 33 years. Other children in the area have not come home in the passed 33 years - maybe the connection is there.

 

[Peazzzer]

Etan Patz and his disappearance have crossed my mind for years. I had been graduated from high school that month, and I remember the search well. How awful then, how swgul now that he has never been found or the culprit caught. I am going back to read some more, but after all these years, I still think it was someone who knew Etan, knew his parents and snatched him. So sad. So sad.

 

[wfgodot]

New York Daily News article by the author of “After Etan: The Missing Child Case that Held America Captive,” Lisa R. Cohen:

Long, furious search for Etan Patz is far from bringing any closure

---
In the spring of 1986, the FBI had enough credible information to dig up a 3,600-square-foot art installation around the corner from where they are digging now. It was called “The Earth Room,” an enormous space packed with sterile dirt. Authorities found nothing.
---

much more at link above

 

[katydid23]

Ahh - yes - good points all. I guess I temporarily forgot about people having their individual "body-clocks" (I know I couldn't have thought that I was the only one who had shifting circadian rhythms - lol).

The question of "Why Etan only" has crossed my mind, as well - in regards to both Ramos and Miller. Particularly Miller - although info has since emerged that casts Miller in a little more of a "capable" light. Still - you'd think that someone who would have been so driven to molest and kill Ethan would have more of a "record" for displaying pedophilic/molestation tendencies. Maybe there are other incidents that have never been unearthed - who knows? I wonder when he left Jamaica? I've wondered if he ever victimized anyone in Jamaica. Maybe he has some skeletons that he left on that island.

But as far as "Why Etan only" - one thing that's crossed my mind is that perhaps Etan was indomitable in some manner - and/or somehow indicated that he would report the rape/molestation (attempt). Or - perhaps the perp realized that he had somehow gone "too far" - that the violation would be too obvious to Etan's caring parents and to authorities (i.e. bleeding, bruising).

One impression I've gotten from looking at several photos of Etan is that he looks like a sharp, sharp kid - even precocious. Maybe looks are deceiving - but to me, he doesn't look as though he would be an easy victim - especially for a 6 y/o. Perhaps the perp realized this when it was too late.

Ramos' coming into a lot of money after Etan's disappearance is obviously suspicious. Did he sell Etan? Would he have had the skill to do that on short notice? Did he have access to a car at that time?

It seems that the longer that Etan was alive after 8:00 a.m. on May 23 - and the farther he got from that block on Prince St. - the more likely something would have been spotted by witnesses....the more likely someone would have seen/heard something. Unless a moving vehicle snatched him up, I'm skeptical as to whether he ever made it far from his own doorstep.

Another possibility that someone brought up much earlier in the thread is that Miller is guilty - but not in the manner we are speculating. Maybe Etan got in the way of some hazardous machinery in that workshop - was accidentally killed - and Miller panicked, big-time. But could he keep that secret after all these years without breaking down at some point? If he is guilty of anything - could he have fooled LE for as long as he has?

BBM

It is possible. But why would Etan be in the workshop when he was on the way to the bus for school? Miller knew he was on the way to school so it wouldn't make sense to take him into the workshop just to tinker around with the machinery, imo.

 

[MsFacetious]

On April 2, 1986, seven years after Etan vanished, the set-to-retire 56-year-old from Flatbush, Brooklyn, put his .38 caliber against his head and pulled the trigger.

His body was found in the kitchen by his cop daughter, Jacqueline.
------------------

This week’s resurrected search for Etan’s remains has brought back memories of the 31-year veteran whose family life suffered from his obsession.

“I saw him on TV the other day,” said his youngest daughter, Patricia, the only one of his children not on the force.
Butler’s other six children followed in his footsteps.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/..._suicide_4cM82hCgh9tIGSbI7aXkLM#ixzz1smwGeFS2

I can say this... when you have an unsolved missing person or murder case in your family, you just want a detective that CARES.
When you find a detective that cares it is a wonderful feeling. Hope that at least someone will REALLY work on it. REALLY try to solve it.

When that detective who cares is just gone... it is unbelievably devastating. You are left wondering if another one will care that much...
I would imagine this was probably very hard on Etan's family if they had worked closely with Detective Butler.

I know from experience that my family would have been thrilled to have this detective and completely crushed to lose him. :twocents: