NY NY - Sylvia Lwowski, 22, Staten Island, 6 Sept 1975 - #3

[GoingByMyGut]

Original post TBM:

I think it was that night and the next day that Eva and the friend went searching for her at the Jetty? If she had accidentally fallen or had been pushed her purse might have went in with her. We don't even know the type of purse, I remember the seventies purses I had, they were the kind you put over your head, laying the strap on one shoulder while the purse itself hung on the other side of the body. If it was a small clutch purse, depending on how far she fell the purse could have fallen on the rocks or into the water below. If Eva went to the jetty or other type of body of water looking for her, in the dark, it's possible they would have missed seeing her purse. Sylvia did not have the search party that Sarah had, consisting of friends/police/firefighters/scuba divers/or media. Even her father stayed at home in case she came back. So there was two people looking for her that night? Two ladies in the dark. No publicity means no search parties.

BBMs: All your points are still valid, Skeet, but I am pretty sure MMQC and EL went searching for SL at those places Sunday morning, in daylight, not Saturday night. Saturday MMQC (with her father) and EL (alone), separately, and at different times, looked for SL at the mall in their cars, then MMQC said she took EL looking at the two friends' ususal "haunts" the next day, including Wagner and Conference House Park. Having said that, you are right about the number of searchers, and given the amount and type of terrain, they could have easily missed it in daylight as well.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

Did we ever determine how far, distance-wise, it would have been if Sylvia had attempted to walk home from the spot where BF/F said she got out of the car-and what the most likely route might have been?

IIRC, there were a couple of route options, with MMQC saying that main road (can't think of the name of the street right now, but it's the name of a bus route as well -- Richmond Ave.?). She actually said this would be the bus she would take too., as it went straight into her neighborhood. I believe ASWDH suggested the golf course as a place to look for a body, but I'm not sure he meant she'd have gone there willingly (I had asked if she might shortcut this way); MMQC didn't think she would because of their experience with -- was it chiggers? (gross) -- in there once before. Going by memory.

 

[alliemay]

Yes you are right, the night it happened Eva and MMQC were not together. I forgot about that. I wonder what area's MMQC and her father drove around to, on that night?

 

[GoingByMyGut]

multi Q -TBM

bbm's It is curious - what I wonder about here is a long engagement when two 20-somethings are living with their parents. I didn't know too many who wanted to be home with their parents at 22-25 years old in 1975, for sure.

-I remember fewer traditional weddings and disillusioned parents, elopements, long engagements when living together first, rushing to the alter if she was pregnant (not looked upon with approval to be showing with child before married in the 70's),

I was surprised there was no known wedding date. Traditionally, what is it, 6 months to a year after an engagement announcement? And their engagement seemed publicly traditional - impressive ring, announcement in the newspaper, engagement party, and gifts. And then, no wedding date? I wonder what they told everyone at the engagement party?

BBM1: I actually did know people with long engagements in the 70s, Rose -- one three-year, another through four years of college. I do also remember being surprised when I heard about older couples, who I knew only marginally, getting engaged with multi-year wedding plans (and not living together). I was more a child of the times and moved in with a BF at 19. At the time, I didn't "get" why someone wouldn't move with the winds of change.

But I think there was always a divide, even back then, between those who represented new ways of doing things and more traditional types -- the kind who didn't leave home, settled down in the same towns they grew up in, went into family businesses. In spite of the greater social wave, no time period speaks for everyone. And SL and her BF/F were still at home in their mid-20s ... maybe that's who they were? As you point out (BBM2), the public trappings of the engagement do speak to tradition.

I keep thinking that could be one of the things SL may have been about to rebel against -- the source of the fire rolling around inside her, causing the split with her father, and making her moody. I think her "crisis" over the abortion would make her less likely to be cowed by convention, as that's one thing a crisis can do for you -- make your realize you have nothing to be afraid of, because what you fear happening already has. But who knows. That could just be what I want to be true.

 

[rosemadderlake]

BBM1: I actually did know people with long engagements in the 70s, Rose -- one three-year, another through four years of college. I do also remember being surprised when I heard about older couples, who I knew only marginally, getting engaged with multi-year wedding plans (and not living together). I was more a child of the times and moved in with a BF at 19. At the time, I didn't "get" why someone wouldn't move with the winds of change.

But I think there was always a divide, even back then, between those who represented new ways of doing things and more traditional types -- the kind who didn't leave home, settled down in the same towns they grew up in, went into family businesses. In spite of the greater social wave, no time period speaks for everyone. And SL and her BF/F were still at home in their mid-20s ... maybe that's who they were? As you point out (BBM2), the public trappings of the engagement do speak to tradition.

I keep thinking that could be one of the things SL may have been about to rebel against -- the source of the fire rolling around inside her, causing the split with her father, and making her moody. I think her "crisis" over the abortion would make her less likely to be cowed by convention, as that's one thing a crisis can do for you -- make your realize you have nothing to be afraid of, because what you fear happening already has. But who knows. That could just be what I want to be true.

I knew a long engagement couple too, just not too many, like only one comes to mind... And, like you I lived with someone when I was young and thought the same about the winds of change. I know the preconceived notions of how a young life should be lived are quite proscribed in some and totally unstructured in others. And you are right on – no era speaks to everyone.

Bbm: Oh I think this is very possible, but I wonder if her loss may have obscured her vision. Did her crisis over the abortion stifle her because she didn’t talk about it with anyone but her best friend? –If she didn’t tell her mom about it, then definitely maybe not her BF/F either. So, some things can either stay bottled up, or become the great motivator.

One of the strongest impressions of Sylvia that I feel is her regret about the abortion in college and perhaps this regret translated into a real desire to be married, and have a baby. In thinking about the events before she disappeared, something different was happening with her. I wonder if she thought she was pregnant. There is that wild panic of surprise, heightened by huge emotions and hormones, (I forgot the birth control, did the birth control not work) and was she late in her cycle? Maybe she was fielding the possibilities with her BF/F but he was not receptive, had different ideas; not the right time, need to be married, have the house and career going, then family. Does she share with him what’s going on with her, and why? -Maybe not.

 

[rosemadderlake]

-Just rearranging some pieces to explore some different angles. -All imo speculation–

Something else was going on to cause Sylvia to ‘flip her switch’ with her Dad at the pool party. Sylvia’s father's ways were not new to her; she handled being her father's daughter throughout college, and her whole life. In learning that her brother said ‘that the fight with the father wasn't the catalyst’, maybe Sylvia and her father had started to patch things up before she disappeared.

The information we have is not too definite on why the BF/F was not at her party. Maybe he hadn’t met her sorority, or all of them; they hadn't met her fiance –she didn’t live at Wagner. -Maybe it was the absence of her BF/F at the pool party that could have been the major unexpressed upset, and the antics of that evening was just icing on top of an already awkward party. Is this piece the precursor to the argument?

-To storm off in a public place is not something you see all the time. Was she composed when she left the car? It doesn’t really match up with the throwing of the glasses, but it could be she was very able to switch gears, redirect and then, make a phone call, go to the bus stop, walk home, or accept a ride.

I think whether anyone believes him or not, whatever the argument was about is known, but not shared, here. -And somehow the rumor about the ring ties into this, too. I really wish the BF/F would join WS and fill in some details…

 

[alliemay]

Yes I also think it is known what the argument was about and it's not being shared.

 

[alliemay]

Wish we knew what type of shoes she wore that night and what her size was. On the doe network, in the unidentified section, if they don't have knowledge of what the person looked like because they only found a skeleton, they put a picture of the articles of clothing that were found with the person. It makes me realize how important it is to pay attention to certain things where my loved ones are concerned. Would I know how tall they were, what their shoe size was, what things they liked to wear. I think I might me just guessing at some things. I also wish we knew what type of purse it was, and if she wore a watch and what type. You really never know where bits of clues will turn up.

 

[rosemadderlake]

Skeet – a couple of things you mentioned hit home to me – like something occurring “close to home”. We are told she said she would take the bus home. She didn’t make it home but did she make it close to home? - Great Kills Harbor is a deep and protected body of water, almost entirely landlocked. Would a body, if caught up under water, ever be disturbed?

I have to say, Great Kills must have been a beautiful place to live and grow up in the 60's & 70's. -Spectacular. Sylvia must have known it really well, too. It had plenty of very private places to be alone, or with someone. She and her fiancé must have spent time enjoying the beaches there – what could be more youthful and romantic? On this night though, after sunset, with the new moon, it must have been very dark. So, the conditions make me wonder about several scenarios, accidental or otherwise, that could render someone blind in an otherwise familiar landscape.

The other thing is; I hadn’t thought of this before you mentioned it, but I agree, and I doubt very much that Sylvia would be buried in the landfill at the hands of someone who cared about her. Maybe I am naive but I think because there is the component of love here, and no history of violence, what could be grimmer to live with than dumping your fiancé in a landfill? I really don’t think she is in the landfill.


Here are some links and facts about the harbor, park, and her neighborhood.

There was a yacht club but not sure what marinas were there -the current Nicholas Great Kills Marina (home to 350 boats) was established in 1976 (37 years ago).
http://www.atlanticcruisingclub.com/Marinas/Classic/2846

Great Kills Park became a National Park in 1973- map.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NPS_Great_Kills_Park_Map.jpg

There was once a landfill there. “…the total land area of Great Kills Park is 488 acres. Of that total, approximately 223 acres are landfill…”
http://www.nps.gov/gate/parkmgmt/greatkillscleanup.htm

And the US Army Corp of Engineers does maintenance dredging and beach nourishing: next one is scheduled for fall/winter 2013-2014. Last one was 2003.

-Came across this SI real estate website that has a video on Great Kills neighborhood, history, and has information on transportation..
http://trendingsiny.com/2012/08/31/all-about-the-great-kills-bay-terrace-neighborhood/

 

[alliemay]

Wow Rose, this is a good find, in the video it even shows the street sign that has Goodall Street written on it. I was also surprised to know that Great Kills Park was once landfill. I also hadn't thought about the possibility of her trying to take a train home. Again, IF it had been something she tried to do.

 

[Jmoose]

Skeet – a couple of things you mentioned hit home to me – like something occurring “close to home”. We are told she said she would take the bus home. She didn’t make it home but did she make it close to home? - Great Kills Harbor is a deep and protected body of water, almost entirely landlocked. Would a body, if caught up under water, ever be disturbed?

I have to say, Great Kills must have been a beautiful place to live and grow up in the 60's & 70's. -Spectacular. Sylvia must have known it really well, too. It had plenty of very private places to be alone, or with someone. She and her fiancé must have spent time enjoying the beaches there – what could be more youthful and romantic? On this night though, after sunset, with the new moon, it must have been very dark. So, the conditions make me wonder about several scenarios, accidental or otherwise, that could render someone blind in an otherwise familiar landscape.

The other thing is; I hadn’t thought of this before you mentioned it, but I agree, and I doubt very much that Sylvia would be buried in the landfill at the hands of someone who cared about her. Maybe I am naive but I think because there is the component of love here, and no history of violence, what could be grimmer to live with than dumping your fiancé in a landfill? I really don’t think she is in the landfill.


Here are some links and facts about the harbor, park, and her neighborhood.

There was a yacht club but not sure what marinas were there -the current Nicholas Great Kills Marina (home to 350 boats) was established in 1976 (37 years ago).
http://www.atlanticcruisingclub.com/Marinas/Classic/2846

Great Kills Park became a National Park in 1973- map.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NPS_Great_Kills_Park_Map.jpg

There was once a landfill there. “…the total land area of Great Kills Park is 488 acres. Of that total, approximately 223 acres are landfill…”
http://www.nps.gov/gate/parkmgmt/greatkillscleanup.htm

And the US Army Corp of Engineers does maintenance dredging and beach nourishing: next one is scheduled for fall/winter 2013-2014. Last one was 2003.

-Came across this SI real estate website that has a video on Great Kills neighborhood, history, and has information on transportation..
http://trendingsiny.com/2012/08/31/all-about-the-great-kills-bay-terrace-neighborhood/

I hate the thought of the landfill, and think it may only be likely if someone other than her BF/F is responsible for her disappearance-or if he had help from somebody who didn't care about her. Interesting info regarding the US Army Corps of Engineers at Great Kills

 

[rosemadderlake]

The Great Kills Library caught my eye in the video- this must have been Sylvia’s library. It is just over a mile away from her house-a nice walk, or short bike ride. When I think back to that time I rode my bike everywhere, didn’t need a car. I think commuting to Wagner with her father makes practical sense, too. Sylvia was punctual and spent time with her studies at the library or with the band when she was at Wagner according to her brother. -But what was her summer of 1975 like? This was the summer before she disappeared. What direction what she going, or thinking of? --Wedding plans, job search, thinking of applying to Grad School? Her mom talked about her job prospects as a reason not to bring publicity to her disappearance – so maybe she was interviewing for jobs at that time? -Maybe though student career services at Wagner. She seemed to be in touch with her sorority – having the party at the end of the summer.

I guess I am thinking what a tragic loss it would be to miss the opportunity to find her, find out what happened to her, because no one believes her BF/F. I know how compelling it is that they had a fight, and he is the last known person to see her, but I have to ask; is it that no one believes him, or is there a critical piece that is missing and unspoken from ‘their story’ and our convo here on WS? If the former is the case, then I am guessing the clue or that other critical detail is undoubtedly buried along with her disappearance. If the latter is the case, and I am not talking about a rumor, then there’s nowhere else to go on this thread. (imo)

-And, if something completely random happened to her, then no one who knew her would know.


“The Great Kills Branch of The New York Public Library originated as a small "sub-branch", with limited hours and collections, in 1925. In 1954 it was expanded into a branch and moved into its current building on Giffords Lane in Staten Island.”
http://archives.nypl.org/nypla/5813#overview

 

[alliemay]

http://library.wagner.edu/wagnerian/1974/wagnerian_05-01-74.pdf

The first time I clicked on this link I was only able to read the first couple of pages, then for some reason the rest of it was not loading. I clicked out and then back in again, and the pages I had read were grayed to the point I couldn't read them. The college paper was the Wagnerian or WAG. On page three, in the editorial section there is a letter from a student who graduated in 74 and talks about the biology trip to Bermuda. I'm just looking for any articles that might have her picture or name in it before she went missing.

 

[rosemadderlake]

http://library.wagner.edu/wagnerian/1974/wagnerian_05-01-74.pdf

The first time I clicked on this link I was only able to read the first couple of pages, then for some reason the rest of it was not loading. I clicked out and then back in again, and the pages I had read were grayed to the point I couldn't read them. The college paper was the Wagnerian or WAG. On page three, in the editorial section there is a letter from a student who graduated in 74 and talks about the biology trip to Bermuda. I'm just looking for any articles that might have her picture or name in it before she went missing.

Skeet, very interesting. Perhaps she knew this person. I don't recall if it was mentioned which year her trip was to Bermuda, '74 or '75 I would guess.

I would not be surprised if there was a picture and/or article on her somewhere in the Wagnerian Archives.

Posting the link to the newspaper archives. All 4 yrs. are there...
http://wagnerian.omeka.net

 

[Jmoose]

The Great Kills Library caught my eye in the video- this must have been Sylvia’s library. It is just over a mile away from her house-a nice walk, or short bike ride. When I think back to that time I rode my bike everywhere, didn’t need a car. I think commuting to Wagner with her father makes practical sense, too. Sylvia was punctual and spent time with her studies at the library or with the band when she was at Wagner according to her brother. -But what was her summer of 1975 like? This was the summer before she disappeared. What direction what she going, or thinking of? --Wedding plans, job search, thinking of applying to Grad School? Her mom talked about her job prospects as a reason not to bring publicity to her disappearance – so maybe she was interviewing for jobs at that time? -Maybe though student career services at Wagner. She seemed to be in touch with her sorority – having the party at the end of the summer.

I guess I am thinking what a tragic loss it would be to miss the opportunity to find her, find out what happened to her, because no one believes her BF/F. I know how compelling it is that they had a fight, and he is the last known person to see her, but I have to ask; is it that no one believes him, or is there a critical piece that is missing and unspoken from ‘their story’ and our convo here on WS? If the former is the case, then I am guessing the clue or that other critical detail is undoubtedly buried along with her disappearance. If the latter is the case, and I am not talking about a rumor, then there’s nowhere else to go on this thread. (imo)

-And, if something completely random happened to her, then no one who knew her would know.


“The Great Kills Branch of The New York Public Library originated as a small "sub-branch", with limited hours and collections, in 1925. In 1954 it was expanded into a branch and moved into its current building on Giffords Lane in Staten Island.”
http://archives.nypl.org/nypla/5813#overview

I firmly believe that the reason Eva thought that publicity would ruin Sylvia's job prospects lies with the officer taking the report. I think he said this to Eva, and convinced her that Sylvia would return home, and no lasting harm done, if they all didn't make a big deal about it. Of course, I also realize that something should have happened when she didn't return home, but the cops dropped the ball and lost the opportunity to try to find out if she got on the bus, or if they actually went to the movie, or if anyone else saw her, or...so on and so on. There isn't any evidence of this, but I can't think of any other reason why a mother of a missing daughter would come to this conclusion, and we are pretty certain that no investigation commenced for real until the cold case detectives looked at it (too late to rule anything in or out).

 

[alliemay]

I half wonder if Eva felt that maybe Sylvia was going through some sort of a breakdown, I don't know why but I truly feel that Sylvia had shared some things with her mother, and in turn the mother did not share these things with the father. Maybe I just feel that from my own experiences with my girls. Even when they are not telling me something, mom knows, and I don't stop asking until they fess up. They are the same with me though, they know me.

 

[alliemay]

http://doenetwork.org/cases/612ufca.html

This is unrelated, but it's an example of what I mean when I say I wish we knew what type of watch, what type of shoe, what type of purse. You would think they would be able to at least determine what states this type of shoe was sold in and come close to where the victim had lived. Back then maybe they could have but maybe not so easy now.

The doe network even has a section for amnesia victims. There was one woman I was looking at but this person was found in Hawaii, and she had a French/Canadian accent, interesting though and sad, the lady has passed away and they never found out who she was.

 

[Jmoose]

http://doenetwork.org/cases/612ufca.html

This is unrelated, but it's an example of what I mean when I say I wish we knew what type of watch, what type of shoe, what type of purse. You would think they would be able to at least determine what states this type of shoe was sold in and come close to where the victim had lived. Back then maybe they could have but maybe not so easy now.

The doe network even has a section for amnesia victims. There was one woman I was looking at but this person was found in Hawaii, and she had a French/Canadian accent, interesting though and sad, the lady has passed away and they never found out who she was.

I know what you mean-all of that information would be useful, and I don't know why it seemed so unimportant at the time-I wish her brother or MMQC could help with that-even if the brands aren't known, a description of the general type and materials for the shoes and handbag, and the shape of her watch-round face or tank-type watch, with a leather or metal band.

 

[rosemadderlake]

I firmly believe that the reason Eva thought that publicity would ruin Sylvia's job prospects lies with the officer taking the report. I think he said this to Eva, and convinced her that Sylvia would return home, and no lasting harm done, if they all didn't make a big deal about it. Of course, I also realize that something should have happened when she didn't return home, but the cops dropped the ball and lost the opportunity to try to find out if she got on the bus, or if they actually went to the movie, or if anyone else saw her, or...so on and so on. There isn't any evidence of this, but I can't think of any other reason why a mother of a missing daughter would come to this conclusion, and we are pretty certain that no investigation commenced for real until the cold case detectives looked at it (too late to rule anything in or out).

Bbms: If Sylvia had been job seeking, LE may not have had to convince Eva of the potential embarrassment if Sylvia was temporarily missing. It really is a catch 22. We don’t know what Sylvia plans were that summer, many kids had to find a job after college. So, if she had begun a job search, and she had a fight with her fiancé (we don’t know what that was about), and having had a fight with her father before that (we do know what that was about); all this may have been enough to convince her parents to wait.

It is difficult to read into all the dynamics 38 years later. And those dynamics were deep and enduring too.

 

[alliemay]

Yes maybe the brother would be able to go through some family photo's and catch something that was maybe missed with the thread started. Shoe's, jewelry, etc. You just never know what piece of info would be helpful.