GUILTY OH - Pike Co, 8 in Rhoden Family Murdered Over Custody Issue, 4 Members Wagner Family Arrested #67

[PrairieWind]

Thanks @PrairieWind for the expert input! State has been good so far about providing the defense attys with discovery. From discovery we've seen already, they've provided info about expert witnesses, etc.

Good to know the defendants and their families won't have access to information about any locals, victims' family members, friends, ex-wives, etc. who might testify against them. At the beginning of the pre-trial process many years ago, the attorneys for the grandmother, Fredericka Wagner, tried very hard to get the names of the people who served on the Grand Jury that indicted her.

Grand jury information is secret and should never be disclosed. Although we are seeing changes to that left and right now. A trend I very much disapprove of. But the prosecution MUST disclose its witness information in full. Including addresses. If the witnesses are later threatened in some way, that needs to be investigated and prosecuted as separate crimes. But it can't be withheld by prosecutors. That is the surest way to a mistrial or overturn on appeal.

 

[sunshineray]

All of that information MUST be provided to the defense attorneys. It doesn't have to be made public, but it must be disclosed to defense counsel.

Thanks. Does that also include the right to interview/depose those informants themselves before trial? Or do they just have the transcripts/video-audio the prosecutors supply of such evidence? TIA

 

[PrairieWind]

Thanks @PrairieWind for the expert input! State has been good so far about providing the defense attys with discovery. From discovery we've seen already, they've provided info about expert witnesses, etc.

Good to know the defendants and their families won't have access to information about any locals, victims' family members, friends, ex-wives, etc. who might testify against them. At the beginning of the pre-trial process many years ago, the attorneys for the grandmother, Fredericka Wagner, tried very hard to get the names of the people who served on the Grand Jury that indicted her.

Grand jury information is secret and should never be disclosed. Although we are seeing changes to that left and right now. A trend I very much disapprove of. But the prosecution MUST disclose its witness information in full. Including addresses. If the witnesses are later threatened in some way, that needs to be investigated and prosecuted as separate crimes. But it can't be withheld by prosecutors. That is the surest way to a mistrial or overturn on appeal.

Thanks. Does that also include the right to interview/depose those informants themselves before trial? Or do they just have the transcripts/video-audio the prosecutors supply of such evidence? TIA

Confidential informants are a different matter. They can be kept confidential. But IF they are to be used as a witness, or anything that they said is to be introduced at trial, their identity must be provided and they may be interviewed by defense counsel. If the witness refuses to be interviewd by defense, that is their right. However, the defense attorney will bring that up at trial.

 

[Covert Operative]

Just wondering about that last one...is the defense allowed to see where informants live? Is that info available or does the court keep it sealed?

I think they will give the informant names to the defense if they are a witness but they will not make them public. I think they have already given the witness list to the defense excluding informants.
I have seen trials where the witness list is made public right before trial.

 

[Cool Cats]

I think this Hamilton County Prosecutor needs to keep his mouth shut. This isn't his case, not his problem.

@PrairieWind

Thanks for answering some questions.

George was taken to the courthouse privately without a Hearing or media attention.

Why would George be having a private meeting at the courthouse? Why a private "closed door" meeting instead of a regular Hearing?

Afterward Motions were posted. Is this common? It seemed odd enough for some to wonder if he was doing a plea but evidently not.

01/19/2022
ORDER TO CONVEY DEFENDANT FROM MONTGOMERY COUNTY JAIL TO PIKE COUNTY COURTHOUSE ON WEDNESDAY, JANUARY 19, 2022 AT 11:00AM

01/19/2022
MOTION NO. 82 DEFEDANDANT'S OBJECTION AND MOTION IN LIMINE TO PROHIBIT THE INTRODUCTION OF OTHER ACTS EVIDENCE AT TRIAL

01/19/2022
MOTION NO. 83 DEFENDANT'S MOTION FOR CHANGE OF VENUE

01/19/2022
MOTION NO. 84 DEFENDANT'S MOTION TO COMPEL ALL BRADY OR INFORMANT DISCOVERY

 

[Berrybell]

As Manly as GW tried to act during the phone calls and the family meetings, a refusal to carry a gun and even shoot someone on the night in question would make him appear weak and unworthy of the family name. No, He was there, He had a gun, and he shot someone. Likely Chris Sr.

This is the best assessment of GW!!! He could not and would not wimp out on his family or appear weak. I honestly think this was an agreement between the Wags if caught they would try to keep or get GW free.

 

[Cool Cats]

This is the best assessment of GW!!! He could not and would not wimp out on his family or appear weak. I honestly think this was an agreement between the Wags if caught they would try to keep or get GW free.

I think your right. I think they had an agreement to keep George out of jail so he could raise his son. I think Jake can't keep George out of it altogether but is keeping him out of shooting anyone.

But during Wednesday's hearing, special prosecutor Angela Canepa told Deering she thought there was something important to note: "We are not stipulating that George Wagner did not shoot anybody. We are stipulating that according to Jake Wagner's proffer, George did not shoot anybody. That's an important distinction."

And Canepa stated that Jake contradicted himself in his proffer.

The prosecution then said Jake did implicate George as being involved in the planning and execution of the shootings on the night in April 2016.

Defense admits the prosecution has George as being complicit in all the charges but George had no intent towards any of it.

How can you be complicit but not have intent?

complicit
Involved with others in an illegal activity or wrongdoing.
"All of these people are complicit in some criminal conspiracy."

Intent
Intention or purpose.
"With alarm she realized his intent."

 

[joe jones]

I believe the names would be sealed until trial for safety reasons and possibly the locations (locations may get out anyway through various ways). I do believe the defense may already have some information on where they believe at least some of the informant's locations were/are.

I think state would be required to either provide contact information or provide the informant in person to the defence if they wish to depose them pre trial, the defence has to have a full list of all witnesses state has on its witness list and a way to subpoena them for a deposition

 

[Covert Operative]

I think state would be required to either provide contact information or provide the informant in person to the defence if they wish to depose them pre trial, the defence has to have a full list of all witnesses state has on its witness list and a way to subpoena them for a deposition

Yes, I agree, I do not think the witness names will be made public
( will be sealed) at least not until right before trial if they are. I believe the witness names have been given to the defense a few times already. There was a witness list early on that was not public and I believe they have given them an updated one recently (large number of witnesses) that is not public and maybe some in between.

 

[PrairieWind]

@PrairieWind

Thanks for answering some questions.

George was taken to the courthouse privately without a Hearing or media attention.

Why would George be having a private meeting at the courthouse? Why a private "closed door" meeting instead of a regular Hearing?

Afterward Motions were posted. Is this common? It seemed odd enough for some to wonder if he was doing a plea but evidently not.

01/19/2022
ORDER TO CONVEY DEFENDANT FROM MONTGOMERY COUNTY JAIL TO PIKE COUNTY COURTHOUSE ON WEDNESDAY, JANUARY 19, 2022 AT 11:00AM

01/19/2022
MOTION NO. 82 DEFEDANDANT'S OBJECTION AND MOTION IN LIMINE TO PROHIBIT THE INTRODUCTION OF OTHER ACTS EVIDENCE AT TRIAL

01/19/2022
MOTION NO. 83 DEFENDANT'S MOTION FOR CHANGE OF VENUE

01/19/2022
MOTION NO. 84 DEFENDANT'S MOTION TO COMPEL ALL BRADY OR INFORMANT DISCOVERY

I think it is pretty clear these are plea negotiations and the fact that he is there in person tells me that this is the very end, as in , he is signing a plead agreement and/or giving testimony to a court reporter.

 

[Covert Operative]

This is the best assessment of GW!!! He could not and would not wimp out on his family or appear weak. I honestly think this was an agreement between the Wags if caught they would try to keep or get GW free.

I believe they are claiming G4 did not have intent due to the comments that JW has said in his proffer. Does not mean they are true. I had said posted times right after JW proffer than he may not have told the whole truth in his proffer. Now other things have come out that he supposedly said that make his proffer look more questionable, at least to me, but may cause more issues for the state in a trial. I think some of the things JW said cannot be proven otherwise. He did have all the evidence/discovery before he gave his confession. That probably helped.

 

[Antimony]

If GW cops a plea, whats the over/under on Billy copping one too?

 

[Antimony]

An allocution allows the defendant to explain why the sentence should be lenient. In plea bargains, an allocution may be required of the defendant. The defendant explicitly admits specifically and in detail the actions and their reasons in exchange for a reduced sentence.

In principle, that removes any doubt as to the exact nature of the defendant's guilt in the matter.

 

[Cool Cats]

If GW cops a plea, whats the over/under on Billy copping one too?

Billy can't admit guilt due to dynasty considerations and needing money. He will lose all respect if he admits helping to lead his family down this path that ruined FWF's reputation. In my opinion.

 

[Covert Operative]

If GW cops a plea, whats the over/under on Billy copping one too?

I could see it go either way, they have been idling along for some reason. I do not think G3 cares what anyone knows that he did and I doubt the family would disown him or any of them over it. I think FW will go with what BW tells her to go with and also convince her that anything she may hear about him is not true or there is some explanation.

 

[Puzzles8]

If GW cops a plea, whats the over/under on Billy copping one too?

If past behavior is a predictor of future behavior, I think he will go to trial. IMO, he has never been held accountable for his behavior. He thinks the power of the Wagner name can and will get him out of anything. Obviously, Billy isn't going to do anything until after G4's trial.

I think the only deal that has been offered/will be offered, to him is LWOP. I don't see any reason the state would offer him any better deal. He has no information to offer up on other's crimes. If he did spill on others, I think he would be targeted badly in prison.

LWOP =go directly to jail and stay there. Trial = years of potential appeals on technicalities and a remote possibility. DP is a moot point right now in Ohio.

All completely my opinion.

 

[Betty P]

UPDATE

Our good friend @RAISINISBACK wanted everyone to know she is out of CICU and recovering well in the hospital. Here's to hoping she's back here with us soon.

She is reading / getting news from all of us here, so please post a "Get Well" message for her!

GET WELL @RAISINISBACK ! WE MISS YOU!

 

[Betty P]

I think it is pretty clear these are plea negotiations and the fact that he is there in person tells me that this is the very end, as in , he is signing a plead agreement and/or giving testimony to a court reporter.

Thank you so much. From your lips to God's ear, as they say. Let's hope he's making a plea deal. JMO

 

[Niner]

UPDATE

Our good friend @RAISINISBACK wanted everyone to know she is out of CICU and recovering well in the hospital. Here's to hoping she's back here with us soon.

She is reading / getting news from all of us here, so please post a "Get Well" message for her!

GET WELL @RAISINISBACK ! WE MISS YOU!

Get well soon!!

 

[Nanasteele]

As Manly as GW tried to act during the phone calls and the family meetings, a refusal to carry a gun and even shoot someone on the night in question would make him appear weak and unworthy of the family name. No, He was there, He had a gun, and he shot someone. Likely Chris Sr.

I so AGREE!