GUILTY OH - Pike Co, 8 in Rhoden Family Murdered Over Custody Issue, 4 Members Wagner Family Arrested #67

[joe jones]

As a criminal defense attorney, I take a little offense to this. Especially the "justify billing" comment. Defense attorneys would be preparing the case for trial. It is set for trial, they have prepared, there are procedural process that must be completed. There are almost always plea negotiations that are going on behind the scenes right up to, and even during trial. But the negotiations do not in anyway stop trial prep. Both prosecutors and defense attorneys are professionals, and take their jobs seriously. I doubt any attorney in this case is doing anything just to justify billing.

I think GW the younger got the best defence team out of all 4 of them, all the defence attorneys have done a stellar job for their clients, but GW the youngers team are extremely good, they are really challenging the state on any issue they can raise,

 

[Betty P]

I think George wants out, badly. He tried twice to get bail and doesn't like having roommates in jail. He was obsessive/compulsive about wanting full control and custody over his child and being in jail doesn't change that stubborn obsessive/compulsive mindset.

That and the fact it seems he doesn't feel remorse and is trying to spin his participation in the murders are all reasons why he should NOT get out of jail anytime soon.

• no remorse
• out of touch with reality

• impulsive and unable to control violent behavior, feels justified in violence towards others
  
• obsessive/compulsive disorder
• obsession with controlling other people through violence, murder or other manipulation

• narcissistic sociopath- he has no respect for the lives of others, except for his clan

• delusional thinking about religion and moral superiority to justify mass murder, etc.

Like his family members, this guy is an extreme danger to the public with very little chance of rehabilitation. He views others in society as lesser than himself and feels entitled to inflict violence or murder upon them as he pleases.

You can't rehabilitate GW4 because he doesn't think he did anything wrong. He thinks he's perfect.

Same for his father.

 

[IType]

Great point, even if they are talking it could fall through so they may need to keep filing since it is so close to trial. If there is no plea deal the trial will probably be delayed unless they get a lot of hearings on the calendar. AW's was an unusual circumstance in that they did not file anything for a very long time.
Hopefully the prosecution will file some answers soon to the motions that have been filed.
I am interested in the audio recordings answer from the prosecution.

BBM, I agree.

I, too, won't be surprised if--in the event no plea deal is reached before then--both sides are not quite ready for trial by April 4. Seems to me there's still a lot to be ironed out in just over two months unless, as you say, they get more pretrial hearings arranged before then. Will be interesting to see how quickly the next hearing date will occur after GW4's court date next week. JMO

 

[IType]

Get well wishes to you, Raisin!

 

[Betty P]

BBM, I agree.

I, too, won't be surprised if--in the event no plea deal is reached before then--both sides are not quite ready for trial by April 4. Seems to me there's still a lot to be ironed out in just over two months unless, as you say, they get more pretrial hearings arranged before then. Will be interesting to see how quickly the next hearing date will occur after GW4's court date next week. JMO

If his attorneys keep dragging this out, nitpicking, delaying, it will begin to work against him.

 

[Covert Operative]

BBM, I agree.

I, too, won't be surprised if--in the event no plea deal is reached before then--both sides are not quite ready for trial by April 4. Seems to me there's still a lot to be ironed out in just over two months unless, as you say, they get more pretrial hearings arranged before then. Will be interesting to see how quickly the next hearing date will occur after GW4's court date next week. JMO

I believe the judge had suggested to both sides a few hearings ago that they may want to get more hearings on the calendar.

 

[Ann99]

As a criminal defense attorney, I take a little offense to this. Especially the "justify billing" comment. Defense attorneys would be preparing the case for trial. It is set for trial, they have prepared, there are procedural process that must be completed. There are almost always plea negotiations that are going on behind the scenes right up to, and even during trial. But the negotiations do not in anyway stop trial prep. Both prosecutors and defense attorneys are professionals, and take their jobs seriously. I doubt any attorney in this case is doing anything just to justify billing.

I see what you are saying. My apology.
I simply meant those attorney’s are doing needed work in providing a vigorous defense and they are billing for it.
These Defense attorneys have been assigned to this case and are expected to provide a defense and they are doing so.
I didn’t word it well.
In my thinking, I was comparing it to Billy.
He is set for trial and not much is going on there that we can see. That is my opinion.
Although I’m not an attorney, I’ve worked in Law Offices and I know how every hour must be accounted for and billed to a client or some other recognizable project.
I fully respect the work of Defense and Prosecution. I addition, the law and the judicial system, and all aspects of Law Enforcement.
My opinion, in comparison to what we have seen in the other Wagners Defense in general, I believe Nash and Parker are very aggressive in their Defense of G4 and appropriately so.

 

[Covert Operative]

I think GW the younger got the best defence team out of all 4 of them, all the defence attorneys have done a stellar job for their clients, but GW the youngers team are extremely good, they are really challenging the state on any issue they can raise,

It could be that they have a little more to work with than the others did after JW's proffer, but they do seem to be trying to give as good of a defense as they can. It seems after Parker joined the defense, G4 case ramped up more or it could be after JW's proffer that it ramped up more. Could be both.
There are a several things that JW supposedly said that may cause some issues for both sides if it went in front of a jury.

 

[Betty P]

I think GW the younger got the best defence team out of all 4 of them, all the defence attorneys have done a stellar job for their clients, but GW the youngers team are extremely good, they are really challenging the state on any issue they can raise,

True, but they have crossed the line several times, most recently at GW4's last hearing. The judge accused one of attempting to try his case in the news media. He and the prosecution also made an agreement in chambers regarding what he could discuss from Jake's proffer in the pre-trial hearing. As soon as he got up to speak in court, he violated the agreement by trying to state "cherry picked" facts from Jake's proffer.

Thus far, Judge Deering has been very fair, open to letting the defense attorneys and defendants make their case. Over the 3 years since their arraignment, GW4's attorneys are the only ones to have finally upset Judge Deering.

 

[Nanasteele]

That and the fact it seems he doesn't feel remorse and is trying to spin his participation in the murders are all reasons why he should NOT get out of jail anytime soon.

• no remorse
• out of touch with reality

• impulsive and unable to control violent behavior, feels justified in violence towards others
  
• obsessive/compulsive disorder
• obsession with controlling other people through violence, murder or other manipulation

• narcissistic sociopath- he has no respect for the lives of others, except for his clan

• delusional thinking about religion and moral superiority to justify mass murder, etc.

Like his family members, this guy is an extreme danger to the public with very little chance of rehabilitation. He views others in society as lesser than himself and feels entitled to inflict violence or murder upon them as he pleases.

You can't rehabilitate GW4 because he doesn't think he did anything wrong. He thinks he's perfect.

Same for his father.

You have said it very well! I don't see why they should see outside of those bars ever again!

 

[altojack]

True, but they have crossed the line several times, most recently at GW4's last hearing. The judge accused one of attempting to try his case in the news media. He and the prosecution also made an agreement in chambers regarding what he could discuss from Jake's proffer in the pre-trial hearing. As soon as he got up to speak in court, he violated the agreement by trying to state "cherry picked" facts from Jake's proffer.

Thus far, Judge Deering has been very fair, open to letting the defense attorneys and defendants make their case. Over the 3 years since their arraignment, GW4's attorneys are the only ones to have finally upset Judge Deering.

100% agree Betty, G4s team haven't exactly played a fair game so far. I could not believe my ears when one of his team stood up and started to state, as you said, "cherry picked" facts from Jakes proffer.

Judge Deering was very annoyed. I've always thought him an easy going Judge, and he is. He's very fair but at G4s hearing he had to call a halt to what was being spoken.

 

[Cool Cats]

True, but they have crossed the line several times, most recently at GW4's last hearing. The judge accused one of attempting to try his case in the news media. He and the prosecution also made an agreement in chambers regarding what he could discuss from Jake's proffer in the pre-trial hearing. As soon as he got up to speak in court, he violated the agreement by trying to state "cherry picked" facts from Jake's proffer.

Thus far, Judge Deering has been very fair, open to letting the defense attorneys and defendants make their case. Over the 3 years since their arraignment, GW4's attorneys are the only ones to have finally upset Judge Deering.

Other than this one time I don't remember them crossing any lines. In over 3 years this is the only time Deering has shut them down from arguing in court.

George is scheduled for trial in just over 2 months and has been denied some of his Motions. They, his defense, need to be aggressive. The other Wagner attorneys do not have this trial pressure.

George's defense is giving him the best defense they can considering their client is under the DP with 22 felony charges including 8 aggravated murders charges plus 2 co-defendants testifying for the State implicating him.

Also, they have to overcome the shoe print and recorded conversations evidence. This evidence alone could convict him of murder.

 

[IType]

I believe the judge had suggested to both sides a few hearings ago that they may want to get more hearings on the calendar.

I recall that, too.

 

[joe jones]

Other than this one time I don't remember them crossing any lines. In over 3 years this is the only time Deering has shut them down from arguing in court.

George is scheduled for trial in just over 2 months and has been denied some of his Motions. They, his defense, need to be aggressive. The other Wagner attorneys do not have this trial pressure.

George's defense is giving him the best defense they can considering their client is under the DP with 22 felony charges including 8 aggravated murders charges plus 2 co-defendants testifying for the State implicating him.

Also, they have to overcome the shoe print and recorded conversations evidence. This evidence alone could convict him of murder.

the motions and hearings are becoming more frequent as they near trial date, I expect it will become more contentious as they start arguing over what will be admissible in court, and we have yet to have the Daubert hearings

 

[Covert Operative]

the motions and hearings are becoming more frequent as they near trial date, I expect it will become more contentious as they start arguing over what will be admissible in court, and we have yet to have the Daubert hearings

There are some interesting things that have come from the motions recently. Looking forward to the prosecution responding. I am interested in the audio recording motion. Does not seem BCI would have messed up on the interception warrant for the semi. If they had I would think it would have been brought up before now.

The G4 Defense is asking for a Daubert on shoe evidence only, at least right now. Interesting to me that they have not asked for a Daubert on ballistics. That may indicate they are not concerned with ballistics evidence in regard to G4. If JW did say the other shoeprints belong to G4, seems he gave a rather questionable reason as to why.

G3 team asked for Daubert on shoe evidence and ballistics. They were granted both. They asked for both of those pre confession.

 

[Johnny B Bad]

I don’t understand why GW4 attorneys are trying to exclude the shoe print evidence, Seems to be more convicting evidence, Angela has already did a sworn statement when she confessed that the shoes where purchase for Jake and George Wagner, will the shoe prints be the one piece of evidence that convict’s GW4????

 

[Cool Cats]

I don’t understand why GW4 attorneys are trying to exclude the shoe print evidence, Seems to be more convicting evidence, Angela has already did a sworn statement when she confessed that the shoes where purchase for Jake and George Wagner, will the shoe prints be the one piece of evidence that convict’s GW4????

What George's defense has to do is prove that the shoes Angie says she bought for George do not match the prints at the crime scenes.

The jury might believe Angie when she says she bought the specific shoe, size 10.5 or size 11, for George but the defense will say what George said in Montana, that he never saw them.

George's defense will want the jury to believe that not only did George never wear them, but the bloody prints do not even match those specific shoes.

The defense needs the judge to rule that the forensic shoe print evidence by this shoe print expert is inadmissible.

Because of George's serious shoe print problem his defense team has filed a Daubert motion.

What Canepa said:

"The methodology used in both the ballistic and shoeprint analysis have both been deemed as reliable science by the Supreme Court in other cases." Angela Canepa also said "the shoe expert is world-renowned and cited in Supreme Court decisions."
Billy Wagner returns to court for a hearing in Pike County massacre case

A Daubert motion

is a specific type of motion in limine raised before or during trial to exclude the testimony of an expert witness. Once a Daubert motion is filed, the party seeking to admit the testimony bears the burden of proof and must prove by a preponderance of the evidence that the expert possesses the requisite level of expertise and the testimony is based on reliable methodologies.

If the judge finds that an expert does not rise to the level of expertise required under Daubert, then that testimony will be excluded from being admitted at trial.

A Daubert motion should analyze how the expert reached their conclusions, what methodology was used, and what was lacking in that approach to result in an opinion contradictory your own. Of course, the specific weaknesses of an expert’s opinion can vary widely, but generally speaking, there are certain things that should be analyzed.

The Daubert Standard: A Guide To Motions, Hearings, and Rulings

What is a Daubert Hearing? - Office of Medical and Scientific Justice

Prior to the Daubert Hearing process, it was common for courts to allow “dueling” experts who would present their evidence or testimony and then the jury would decide the relevance or accuracy of the testimony. Perhaps the main advantage claimed for the Daubert Hearing is that it seems to have been effective at keeping what is called “junk science” out of the courtroom.

 

[Betty P]

What George's defense has to do is prove that the shoes Angie says she bought for George do not match the prints at the crime scenes.

The jury might believe Angie when she says she bought the specific shoe, size 10.5 or size 11, for George but the defense will say what George said in Montana, that he never saw them.

George's defense will want the jury to believe that not only did George never wear them, but the bloody prints do not even match those specific shoes.

The defense needs the judge to rule that the forensic shoe print evidence by this shoe print expert is inadmissible.

Because of George's serious shoe print problem his defense team has filed a Daubert motion.

What Canepa said:

"The methodology used in both the ballistic and shoeprint analysis have both been deemed as reliable science by the Supreme Court in other cases." Angela Canepa also said "the shoe expert is world-renowned and cited in Supreme Court decisions."
Billy Wagner returns to court for a hearing in Pike County massacre case

A Daubert motion

is a specific type of motion in limine raised before or during trial to exclude the testimony of an expert witness. Once a Daubert motion is filed, the party seeking to admit the testimony bears the burden of proof and must prove by a preponderance of the evidence that the expert possesses the requisite level of expertise and the testimony is based on reliable methodologies.

If the judge finds that an expert does not rise to the level of expertise required under Daubert, then that testimony will be excluded from being admitted at trial.

A Daubert motion should analyze how the expert reached their conclusions, what methodology was used, and what was lacking in that approach to result in an opinion contradictory your own. Of course, the specific weaknesses of an expert’s opinion can vary widely, but generally speaking, there are certain things that should be analyzed.

The Daubert Standard: A Guide To Motions, Hearings, and Rulings

What is a Daubert Hearing? - Office of Medical and Scientific Justice

Prior to the Daubert Hearing process, it was common for courts to allow “dueling” experts who would present their evidence or testimony and then the jury would decide the relevance or accuracy of the testimony. Perhaps the main advantage claimed for the Daubert Hearing is that it seems to have been effective at keeping what is called “junk science” out of the courtroom.

I recall when GW4's attorney first made those objections. It was somewhat amusing they were claiming that ballistics evidence is "junk science". They seem rather desperate if that's all they can come up with to defend him.

 

[Cool Cats]

I recall when GW4's attorney first made those objections. It was somewhat amusing they were claiming that ballistics evidence is "junk science". They seem rather desperate if that's all they can come up with to defend him.

I thought it was with Jake or Billy that the " junk science" came up but no matter.

Billy's jail mugshot was updated.

Lexington Kentucky Mugshot 11/13/18

Most Recent Mugshot Updated: 1/25/2022

Butler County, Ohio - Persons Currently In Custody

 

[Cool Cats]

Still waiting on an updated mugshot for Angela. This is her original mugshot from
11/13/2018 - Current Inmate Listing - Delaware County Jail - Sheriff

Here is her latest photo from court dated 9/12/2021.

Rhoden family murders update: Angela Wagner pleads guilty in Pike County court