GUILTY OH - Pike Co, 8 in Rhoden Family Murdered Over Custody Issue, 4 Members Wagner Family Arrested #67

[sunshineray]

Grand jury information is secret and should never be disclosed. Although we are seeing changes to that left and right now. A trend I very much disapprove of. But the prosecution MUST disclose its witness information in full. Including addresses. If the witnesses are later threatened in some way, that needs to be investigated and prosecuted as separate crimes. But it can't be withheld by prosecutors. That is the surest way to a mistrial or overturn on appeal.

Confidential informants are a different matter. They can be kept confidential. But IF they are to be used as a witness, or anything that they said is to be introduced at trial, their identity must be provided and they may be interviewed by defense counsel. If the witness refuses to be interviewd by defense, that is their right. However, the defense attorney will bring that up at trial.

Is that because the defendant has the right to witness the interview? I could see, in light of facts that have been disclosed by the guilty, how an ex-wife or associate of any Wagner wouldn't want to be in a room with them. The prosecution can still call those informants at trial though right?

 

[sunshineray]

Billy can't admit guilt due to dynasty considerations and needing money. He will lose all respect if he admits helping to lead his family down this path that ruined FWF's reputation. In my opinion.

I think GW3 to FW is now a lost cause, as far as inheritance is concerned. Most likely her will has been adjusted in that respect. He may get a monthly stipend but I doubt much more. AJMO

 

[sunshineray]

I could see it go either way, they have been idling along for some reason. I do not think G3 cares what anyone knows that he did and I doubt the family would disown him or any of them over it. I think FW will go with what BW tells her to go with and also convince her that anything she may hear about him is not true or there is some explanation.

I respectfully disagree. I think she's probably done with the lot of them as far as sharing in any great inheritance. That could easily be tagged by the victim's families in lawsuits, no? The grandkids may still be beneficiaries but in trusts that will be managed by a lawyer. AJMO

 

[Cool Cats]

I think GW3 to FW is now a lost cause, as far as inheritance is concerned. Most likely her will has been adjusted in that respect. He may get a monthly stipend but I doubt much more. AJMO

I meant - my opinion - he has to think about the FWF reputation. It's a given he can't inherit anything now because if found guilty it all goes to the Rhoden estate.

He needs to think about his relationship with his mom and sister and other close family/friends. He can't let them think he deliberately led his sons out to murder people. Then that means he is responsible for ruining FWF's reputation.

He has to say he is innocent, blame it on Angela and Jake.

He at least needs to keep his close relationship with his sister so she will talk to him, visit him and pay for his calls and commissary. If he tells her he helped murder 8 people he is risking their relationship. He also risks losing financial help.

For these reasons I find it unlikely he would plead guilty. If he does it will only be because Jake and Angela paint him into a corner of which he can't get free from.

Accused killer Billy Wagner asks Pike County judge to let him speak to his sister
Jan 17, 2019

The most curious aspect of Thursday's hearing centered on Billy Wagner's sister, Robin, who's been a fixture in the courtroom.

"My client is very close with his sister, Robin, who is in the courtroom," Collins said.

Collins asked Deering to let the two continue speaking during jail visiting hours. Deering agreed with Collins' request.

"The state is OK with that," special prosecutor Angie Canepa said. "Robin is obviously not a defendant in this case. Just so long as she's not relaying messages and they're not discussing the case."

"I've spoken to both my client and his sister, and they're both in agreement with that," Collins said.

 

[FrankieT]

UPDATE

Our good friend @RAISINISBACK wanted everyone to know she is out of CICU and recovering well in the hospital. Here's to hoping she's back here with us soon.

She is reading / getting news from all of us here, so please post a "Get Well" message for her!

GET WELL @RAISINISBACK ! WE MISS YOU!

Get well, get strong, glad you are out and reading this!! Hope to hear from you soon.

 

[Covert Operative]

I respectfully disagree. I think she's probably done with the lot of them as far as sharing in any great inheritance. That could easily be tagged by the victim's families in lawsuits, no? The grandkids may still be beneficiaries but in trusts that will be managed by a lawyer. AJMO

I did not say anything about inhertitance. I highly doubt that she would leave anything to someone in prison, I am pretty sure that most people would not. There is a civil suit so that would be obvious, yes? I would think that she has had her assets taken care of way before now in that regard.

I do not believe she or others on both sides of the family will cut off communication with the W's. RW is the trustee of at least one of
FW's trust and was made so a few years ago and was made her durable power of attorney in May 0f 2021.

 

[Cool Cats]

I think it is pretty clear these are plea negotiations and the fact that he is there in person tells me that this is the very end, as in , he is signing a plead agreement and/or giving testimony to a court reporter.

Confusing. Then they are talking about a plea and a trial at the same time.

Specific mentions of preparing for trial:

01/10/2022
MOTION NO. 78 and MOTION NO. 79 DEFENDANT'S MOTION FOR PROPOSED JURY INSTRUCTION

01/19/2022
MOTION NO. 83 DEFENDANT'S MOTION FOR CHANGE OF VENUE

01/19/2022
MOTION NO. 82 DEFEDANDANT'S OBJECTION AND MOTION IN LIMINE TO PROHIBIT THE INTRODUCTION OF OTHER ACTS EVIDENCE AT TRIAL

04/04/2022 08:30 AM
JURY TRIAL

 

[Penelope Pitstop]

Get well, get strong, glad you are out and reading this!! Hope to hear from you soon.

Get Well soon!

 

[Chelly]

UPDATE

Our good friend @RAISINISBACK wanted everyone to know she is out of CICU and recovering well in the hospital. Here's to hoping she's back here with us soon.

She is reading / getting news from all of us here, so please post a "Get Well" message for her!

GET WELL @RAISINISBACK ! WE MISS YOU!

Oh Thank goodness! @Betty P . I'm so happy you passed along the good news. I've missed you @RAISINISBACK . Early on, I came here to read your posts. Look forward to seeing you again, right here on this thread.

 

[sunshineray]

Very glad you're feeling better Raisinback <3 Take care and continue to heal, praying for your wellness<3

 

[Ann99]

Raisinback
Get totally well totally soon!
Sending positive thoughts for a full and quick recovery
I am hoping you have one of your favorite wooden eggs with you that has brought you good luck and comfort.

 

[Ann99]

Confusing. Then they are talking about a plea and a trial at the same time.

Specific mentions of preparing for trial:

01/10/2022
MOTION NO. 78 and MOTION NO. 79 DEFENDANT'S MOTION FOR PROPOSED JURY INSTRUCTION

01/19/2022
MOTION NO. 83 DEFENDANT'S MOTION FOR CHANGE OF VENUE

01/19/2022
MOTION NO. 82 DEFEDANDANT'S OBJECTION AND MOTION IN LIMINE TO PROHIBIT THE INTRODUCTION OF OTHER ACTS EVIDENCE AT TRIAL

04/04/2022 08:30 AM
JURY TRIAL

I think it is possible they are talking, or at least Defense is thinking about a plea while filing paperwork for trial. The papers, the motions, are just that - paperwork for the record and to justify billing. Buying time.
Defense lawyers defend their client, but they also defend the legal process, the legal system, and themselves from appeal or claims of ineffective counsel, etc.
This could go as far as everyone entering the courtroom for jury election and then a sudden agreement or plea deal is accepted by Defense.
No trial. Over and done. my opinion only.

 

[altojack]

Oh Thank goodness! @Betty P . I'm so happy you passed along the good news. I've missed you @RAISINISBACK . Early on, I came here to read your posts. Look forward to seeing you again, right here on this thread.

I'd like to add my Bestest good wishes for a steady and successful recovery @RAINSINISBACK. Your friends here miss you very much, so get your butt in gear as soon as you safely can and come pull up a chair and join us again xx

 

[LMDlong]

Well wishes and prayers to Rainsiniback .

 

[Covert Operative]

I think it is possible they are talking, or at least Defense is thinking about a plea while filing paperwork for trial. The papers, the motions, are just that - paperwork for the record and to justify billing. Buying time.
Defense lawyers defend their client, but they also defend the legal process, the legal system, and themselves from appeal or claims of ineffective counsel, etc.
This could go as far as everyone entering the courtroom for jury election and then a sudden agreement or plea deal is accepted by Defense.
No trial. Over and done. my opinion only.

Great point, even if they are talking it could fall through so they may need to keep filing since it is so close to trial. If there is no plea deal the trial will probably be delayed unless they get a lot of hearings on the calendar. AW's was an unusual circumstance in that they did not file anything for a very long time.
Hopefully the prosecution will file some answers soon to the motions that have been filed.
I am interested in the audio recordings answer from the prosecution.

 

[Puzzles8]

I think it is possible they are talking, or at least Defense is thinking about a plea while filing paperwork for trial. The papers, the motions, are just that - paperwork for the record and to justify billing. Buying time.
Defense lawyers defend their client, but they also defend the legal process, the legal system, and themselves from appeal or claims of ineffective counsel, etc.
This could go as far as everyone entering the courtroom for jury election and then a sudden agreement or plea deal is accepted by Defense.
No trial. Over and done. my opinion only.

I think you are spot on. G4 has a trial date of 4/4/2022. Theoretically, he can still negotiate a plea deal up until trial. I think he sees it as leverage. As the trial is about to start, last minute, what is A/C willing to give up so it ends in a plea? IMO, G4 is bluffing up until the trial date to get the best plea he can.

I think it's also relevant what terms G4 might be looking for in a plea. I can only imagine he would not like to spend the rest of his life in prison. I also imagine he would like some time with his son, even if it is visitation and 30 years like AW got. But, with no chance to appeal.

IMO, A/C will not agree to the 30 yr deal. He would be late 50's and still have some of his life ahead. Angie will not get out until her late 70's. That basically exceeds her life expectancy and is = to LWOP. And no appeals.

AW was at home, G4 was an active participant at the crime scenes, he watched and helped it all go down and didn't try to stop it.

I don't think the accuracy of AW's proffer/testimony will be an issue at trial. IMO, JW though, isn't the brightest bulb in the box, and JW was the only witness at some/all of the crime scene's. Can he keep his story straight?

Does G4 take the chance JW will screw up his proffer at trial? With the DP in moratorium in Ohio does G4 see his worst risk as LWOP either way? After a trial he then has the avenue of appeal, but in doing so he assumes a lot of risk at trial.

All completely my opinions and speculation.

 

[Cool Cats]

I think you are spot on. G4 has a trial date of 4/4/2022. Theoretically, he can still negotiate a plea deal up until trial. I think he sees it as leverage. As the trial is about to start, last minute, what is A/C willing to give up so it ends in a plea? IMO, G4 is bluffing up until the trial date to get the best plea he can.

I think it's also relevant what terms G4 might be looking for in a plea. I can only imagine he would not like to spend the rest of his life in prison. I also imagine he would like some time with his son, even if it is visitation and 30 years like AW got. But, with no chance to appeal.

IMO, A/C will not agree to the 30 yr deal. He would be late 50's and still have some of his life ahead. Angie will not get out until her late 70's. That basically exceeds her life expectancy and is = to LWOP. And no appeals.

AW was at home, G4 was an active participant at the crime scenes, he watched and helped it all go down and didn't try to stop it.

I don't think the accuracy of AW's proffer/testimony will be an issue at trial. IMO, JW though, isn't the brightest bulb in the box, and JW was the only witness at some/all of the crime scene's. Can he keep his story straight?

Does G4 take the chance JW will screw up his proffer at trial? With the DP in moratorium in Ohio does G4 see his worst risk as LWOP either way? After a trial he then has the avenue of appeal, but in doing so he assumes a lot of risk at trial.

All completely my opinions and speculation.

Forgot about that, that signing a plea means you sign away your right to spend years appealing your conviction.

I think George will want the chance to appeal.

I think George wants out, badly. He tried twice to get bail and doesn't like having roommates in jail. He was obsessive/compulsive about wanting full control and custody over his child and being in jail doesn't change that stubborn obsessive/compulsive mindset.

What's the best chance he has at getting out before he is in his late 50's or older?
Because it is getting out that he craves.

His best chance at getting out sooner is with a trial. With a plea deal he has zero zilch, as Fred would say, of a chance at getting out before at least 30 or more years. With a trial he has a chance at getting acquitted of the murders and aquitted of enough of the other 14 charges to give him a sentence of far less than at least 30 or more years.

What? A 1% chance? 5%? 10%? 50/50 chance at aquittals? At least with trial there's a chance.

But then you mention the trial brings risks. Hummm....are the risks worth it?

Jake has to testify truthfully and if he doesn't the DP stays.
George could get convicted of the murders and end up with LWOP.

George's attorneys need to do the responsible thing which is to be honest with him about the odds of him being acquitted at trial. Jake's attorneys I believe leveled with him about the overwhelming evidence and helped him cop a plea and avoid death.

If George's attorneys think the evidence and Jake and Angele's testimony will get George convicted of the murders then they need to convince him that a life sentence with parole or 30 or 40 years is better than the LWOP he will get if convicted at trial.

It's up to his attorneys to level with him on his odds but George is the one who will throw the dice on the decision. Right now all Motions point to trial but it's a given George still holds the dice in his hands.

• Should I Take A Plea Or Go To Trial? Eight Steps To Your Decision.

• https://www.hg.org/legal-articles/when-should-you-accept-a-plea-bargain-in-your-criminal-case-30893

• 10 Things Your Lawyer Won't Tell You

 

[Betty P]

I think it is possible they are talking, or at least Defense is thinking about a plea while filing paperwork for trial. The papers, the motions, are just that - paperwork for the record and to justify billing. Buying time.
Defense lawyers defend their client, but they also defend the legal process, the legal system, and themselves from appeal or claims of ineffective counsel, etc.
This could go as far as everyone entering the courtroom for jury election and then a sudden agreement or plea deal is accepted by Defense.
No trial. Over and done. my opinion only.

Agree, it looks like they're keeping the trial prep going as a way to hold a position in plea negotiations. JMO, that sounds like they're trying to get a better deal than LWOP. The longer it drags out, the more likely that the state has evidence GW4 was a shooter. We already know he was a conspirator.

Hopefully, the deal is done. As @PrairieWind pointed out upthread, if GW4 was taken in person to the court house, it probably means he was there to sign something. They wouldn't have brought him there just for negotiations or discussion.

JMO

 

[PrairieWind]

I think it is possible they are talking, or at least Defense is thinking about a plea while filing paperwork for trial. The papers, the motions, are just that - paperwork for the record and to justify billing. Buying time.
Defense lawyers defend their client, but they also defend the legal process, the legal system, and themselves from appeal or claims of ineffective counsel, etc.
This could go as far as everyone entering the courtroom for jury election and then a sudden agreement or plea deal is accepted by Defense.
No trial. Over and done. my opinion only.

As a criminal defense attorney, I take a little offense to this. Especially the "justify billing" comment. Defense attorneys would be preparing the case for trial. It is set for trial, they have prepared, there are procedural process that must be completed. There are almost always plea negotiations that are going on behind the scenes right up to, and even during trial. But the negotiations do not in anyway stop trial prep. Both prosecutors and defense attorneys are professionals, and take their jobs seriously. I doubt any attorney in this case is doing anything just to justify billing.

 

[IType]

I think it is possible they are talking, or at least Defense is thinking about a plea while filing paperwork for trial. The papers, the motions, are just that - paperwork for the record and to justify billing. Buying time.
Defense lawyers defend their client, but they also defend the legal process, the legal system, and themselves from appeal or claims of ineffective counsel, etc.
This could go as far as everyone entering the courtroom for jury election and then a sudden agreement or plea deal is accepted by Defense.
No trial. Over and done. my opinion only.

BBM, I agree