OH - Pike County: 8 people from one family dead as police hunt for killer(s) - #30

[amauet1]

I"m going to be busy (just like most of us) the next couple of weeks and would like to take this time to wish all members, guests and the Rhoden/Gilley families, the warmest, happiest most beautiful Merry Christmas and Happy New Year. Here's praying this case gets solved and you can begin healing.

 

[rsd1200]

BBM

I think LM is like most parents, he views his children through rose colored glasses. Most of us parents like to think of our kids as they were when they were younger, not now when they are middle aged.

I think DR and JM were very close when they were younger. But marriage changes things and very often husbands and wives (I think especially wives) get in between siblings so that the siblings are not as close as they once were. But yet the older parents never know about the small feuds between their kids and in-laws or choose to believe that those small feuds do not do any lasting damage and everything goes on as it always was.

But when you live with someone everyday (since we have been talking about dogs I will use this word) who is constantly yapping in your ear about the wrongs, real or imagined, that your sister or brother has done, then over time it wears you down.

I went through this with a sister-in-law who was particularly good at this. She was constantly telling my brother how we snubbed her at family gatherings or slighted her during Christmas gift giving or how when she called one of us we either didn't answer or cut the conversation with her short. I found myself spending long periods of very valuable time on the phone with her (she always called us when she knew we would be working or busy) so as to not give her the impression I was snubbing her. One day i said enough and when she called I very firmly told her I was too busy to talk. Five minutes later my brother called and asked why I was so short with his wife. I told him that she always made sure she called when she knew I was working and that if he wanted me to spend long hours talking to his wife I would quit working and move in with him so I could be available to her 24/7. He never complained about it again but there was always a coolness between us after that.

Totally getcha. Had a blow up with a sibling's s/o about ten yeas ago. We get along fine at family get togethers and his s/o and I are on speaking terms, but I think there's still a bit of a grudge there, seeing as how I've never been given their address (we only live about 15 miles apart, too). :laughing: However, as close as LM lived to JM and DR, it would seem he'd kinda know, and why not describe BJM in the same terms? My parents KNOW. They like to pretend that all is a-okay but they KNOW. Sure, he said she was child-like, but she was capable enough to take care of their children, and raise her own, w/o a partner to help her, but he never spoke of her and DR being close. I think he knew the heat was on JM from the git go, may have known there was tension between them too, and was over doing it. As someone said, BJM got a car for free and a cheap place to live. KR2, CR2, and HMR, all had cars. He apparently had to buy his from his sister, who was doing much better, it appears, than her brother. Whether BJM was helping or not, they were paying her for helping, but she got perks, besides pay.

 

[rsd1200]

Seems to me (and you it looks like) that the Manleys and Wagners are having a contest between each other on who can blame whom for this and that. So that tells me that both families are involved in this mess. Like i have said IMO the Manleys know a lot of what went down both before and after this crime. And at first, weren't the Wagners going "on vacation" to Alaska, not moving there at first?

They did in fact go off for vacation first. I think to scope out properties. They packed all of their stuff in those trailers b/c they'd sold the house.

:thinking: Wonder if that's why they couldn't get a warrant to search inside of the W boy's home? They'd sold it and had a contract pending. However, when they put their things in the trailers, and moved them to the guy's lot, that was fair game, to get topick through the household items. The land search was fair game b/c it was not living quarters, same as the elder W's property (they didn't search their living quarters that day but did search the nursing facility,earlier on.) Just a thought.

 

[Dudly]

IF all the corruption and high level of those being investigate are involved in this case, could the "laser focus" and searches after the Ws moved have been a deflection? Could they be trying to draw attention away from those involved? Even the focus on JM could have been a deflection. I think even Reader has been told to watch what he says. I think DeWine is controlling everything in this case....

 

[RAISINISBACK]

Your more than welcome to use that phrase! LOL!

Right now with what little info we have to go on, and the "lasor focus" on the W, they and the Manleys are all we have. Let me put this out there.
LM has said that there was a custody thing going on and an article in one of the papers printed that. And if it's true there was some kind of fight between CRsr and BW sometime before the murders, then it seems to me, that the Wagner's and Rhoden's weren't getting along as AW and JW would like us to think.
JW showed up at the hospital, Why? These families were not getting along. Her new boyfriend could have been there with her, difinately her family was there. Was JW alone or did he bring the whole clan? Just to intimidate the Rhodens? Couldn't AW by herself have brought litle S to see her new sister? There was a rumor about Sheriff Reader being at the hospital that day. Could some kind of fight have occured? Could some people have been banned from visitation?

BBM

I think it was in MSM, I am not sure which article though, that JW and DR got into an argument at the hospital. If Sheriff Reader was at the hospital that day (it seems odd that the sheriff himself would be there, not a deputy) then that argument must have gotten pretty heated.

Indeed JW may have been banned from seeing HR and the newborn at the hospital.

You know, typing that statement and talking about snubbing people, O.J. Simpson popped into my head. Remember that the prosecution said during his trial that the Browns snubbing him during his daughter's dance recital was what set him off. It was something like "how dare they snub me after all I have done for them?" Because he was much more wealthy than the Browns he felt a sense of entitlement.

Since admittedly the W family was much more wealthy with the elder W's owning a multi million dollar farm and BW and family owning Defiance Farm could they also have felt a sense of entitlement? Could this have been JW and his families reaction to that fight and possible snub at the hospital setting off a murderous rage in them?

 

[RAISINISBACK]

Totally getcha. Had a blow up with a sibling's s/o about ten yeas ago. We get along fine at family get togethers and his s/o and I are on speaking terms, but I think there's still a bit of a grudge there, seeing as how I've never been given their address (we only live about 15 miles apart, too). :laughing: However, as close as LM lived to JM and DR, it would seem he'd kinda know, and why not describe BJM in the same terms? My parents KNOW. They like to pretend that all is a-okay but they KNOW. Sure, he said she was child-like, but she was capable enough to take care of their children, and raise her own, w/o a partner to help her, but he never spoke of her and DR being close. I think he knew the heat was on JM from the git go, may have known there was tension between them too, and was over doing it. As someone said, BJM got a car for free and a cheap place to live. KR2, CR2, and HMR, all had cars. He apparently had to buy his from his sister, who was doing much better, it appears, than her brother. Whether BJM was helping or not, they were paying her for helping, but she got perks, besides pay.

BBM

I think the heat was on JM from the start also. His was the only vehicle towed that day for forensics. Remember how furious LM was about that? I don't think LE bought his reason for being there that early either. It was probably total chaos at first but once LE began putting statements from BJM and LM and the BJM guests together, they may have realized that no one called JM to tell him to check on DR. They may have asked themselves if no one called JM to tell him to check on DR, how is it he knew his niece would be "like that".

LM could very well have been reacting defensively to them focusing on JM, and have made that statement about how close they were. But then again LM may have suspected something. We have not heard a peep out of Judy M. She has not gone on record to defend JM nor has she protested that he would not have hurt Dr because they were so close. Is it because she is too shy, letting her husband do all the talking? Or is it because like most mothers she knows her son better than his father does and deep down she knows that JM is capable of it? Or that AM is?

 

[Betty P]

I"m going to be busy (just like most of us) the next couple of weeks and would like to take this time to wish all members, guests and the Rhoden/Gilley families, the warmest, happiest most beautiful Merry Christmas and Happy New Year. Here's praying this case gets solved and you can begin healing.

Hope you and everyone here has a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year! Thanks to everyone here for their hard work and "brain scratching". Happy Holidays also to the family and friends of the Rhodens & Gilleys. I wish them peace and happiness. I agree, let's hope this case is solved in the coming year.

 

[RAISINISBACK]

Ohio's overdose deaths soar again, as state ranks 2nd worst in US

 

[RAISINISBACK]

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to everyone. Here's hoping for safe and happy holidays for all.

 

[Dudly]

Merry Christmas everyone....

 

[amauet1]

BBM

I think it was in MSM, I am not sure which article though, that JW and DR got into an argument at the hospital. If Sheriff Reader was at the hospital that day (it seems odd that the sheriff himself would be there, not a deputy) then that argument must have gotten pretty heated.

Indeed JW may have been banned from seeing HR and the newborn at the hospital.

You know, typing that statement and talking about snubbing people, O.J. Simpson popped into my head. Remember that the prosecution said during his trial that the Browns snubbing him during his daughter's dance recital was what set him off. It was something like "how dare they snub me after all I have done for them?" Because he was much more wealthy than the Browns he felt a sense of entitlement.

Since admittedly the W family was much more wealthy with the elder W's owning a multi million dollar farm and BW and family owning Defiance Farm could they also have felt a sense of entitlement? Could this have been JW and his families reaction to that fight and possible snub at the hospital setting off a murderous rage in them?

Well lets take a look at that. The W's have two grandchildren with them in Alaska, now how did they get custody of both? Could they have been real aggressive with the other child's mother? Was she doing things that got them custody ( drugs, neglect ?) or was she more intimidated by the W's than HMR was? Maybe this was their solution to their problem with HMR (W's). HMR had her whole immediate family beside her and extended family. Maybe the other mother didn't have that kind of support system.
I agree that the W's felt superior over the Rhoden's and a lot of the community. Boy if this was there solution, that must have been a lot of "hatred", making sure that no one in that family was going to be around to "challedge" them ever again about little S.

 

[rsd1200]

BBM

I think the heat was on JM from the start also. His was the only vehicle towed that day for forensics. Remember how furious LM was about that? I don't think LE bought his reason for being there that early either. It was probably total chaos at first but once LE began putting statements from BJM and LM and the BJM guests together, they may have realized that no one called JM to tell him to check on DR. They may have asked themselves if no one called JM to tell him to check on DR, how is it he knew his niece would be "like that".

LM could very well have been reacting defensively to them focusing on JM, and have made that statement about how close they were. But then again LM may have suspected something. We have not heard a peep out of Judy M. She has not gone on record to defend JM nor has she protested that he would not have hurt Dr because they were so close. Is it because she is too shy, letting her husband do all the talking? Or is it because like most mothers she knows her son better than his father does and deep down she knows that JM is capable of it? Or that AM is?

Although I'm not 100% sold the Ws/JM/AM did this, it is one of my theories and I found LM's focus, and anger, that day, over his son's vehicle being taken, a bit misplaced... Had it been me, I'd kinda think of that as way down the ladder to my daughter and grandchildren just being murdered (and I'd probably later, after I got to thinking on it, ask my son myself, why he wasn't already at work). I'd also want to chat w/ DS if I were a R. I noticed he has no R friends, on his FB anymore, last I checked.

 

[Dudly]

Although I'm not 100% sold the Ws/JM/AM did this, it is one of my theories and I found LM's focus, and anger, that day, over his son's vehicle being taken, a bit misplaced... Had it been me, I'd kinda think of that as way down the ladder to my daughter and grandchildren just being murdered (and I'd probably later, after I got to thinking on it, ask my son myself, why he wasn't already at work). I'd also want to chat w/ DS if I were a R. I noticed he has no R friends, on his FB anymore, last I checked.

If I remember correctly, LE did not confirm much of what DS said. They didn't seem to treat him as a valuable first hand witness to a crime scene. Did they not believe him or did they not want the general public to believe him.

 

[rsd1200]

If I remember correctly, LE did not confirm much of what DS said. They didn't seem to treat him as a valuable first hand witness to a crime scene. Did they not believe him or did they not want the general public to believe him.

He was apparently correct on there being pot plants there, but, they haven't confirmed anything else, Nor have the confirmed much of what BJM or JM has said about the scenes either.

I heard JM found DR just inside the front room, saw her leg and backed out, heard a baby crying, but didn't want to see his niece like that (per AM) but none of that, not even DR's placement or body condition, was admitted publicly by LE.

I heard something about DR's body condition, concerning her face and head, that was really bad. (rumor? idk. There was someone who said the funeral home did a good job on her face and you couldn't hardly tell. Tell what?) If that's true, it seems that, based on what BJM said in her 911 call, and the leak about DR's face and neck area, they were the only two who may have received beat downs in addition to bullets.

But was it ever confirmed by LE, about the way JM found her? BJM, she said later that she found CR1 covered. Never confirmed by LE and I don't think LE confirmed the appearance of him being beaten. Thanks to the redacted autopsy report, all we know is there was "soft tissue bruising". That doesn't really give us much to go on. I have soft tissue bruising, somewhere, nearly all of the time...

The only way we know that BJM and JM were grilled by the cops is because LM told it. He's been the only real source of info and sometimes I'm not so sure if he isn't blowing some smoke, b/c he says he's going to tell all of this stuff, if this or that didn't happen. In the very beginning he said that, but then he tells about 2-3 different scenarios, that went down, in the days/weeks leading up to this. I understand his distrust of the law. I don't trust most, and I've never even been arrested. Just seen some stuff that has gone in our own region, and state. One thing is for sure, LM's not talking now, DS clammed up real quick after he gave the initial interviews, and LE has been tight lipped from day one. I will say this for Reader, he seemed genuinely shaken by what he saw in those trailers. I'm not ready to throw him under the bus just yet, but hiring his brother, to work cold cases (iirc), was not his best decision.

To add to this, as just as a thought, I have a hard time visualizing JW shooting a 16 year old kid, cowering between his bed and his wall. He'd known that child for years. I see the pics of him with S, and his eyes do not have that hardened look to them. Never have. They don't have a cold look either. You can see warmth in them. I usually study folk's eyes. Some may fool you, but the "eyes have it", most of the time.

 

[Betty P]

He was apparently correct on there being pot plants there, but, they haven't confirmed anything else, Nor have the confirmed much of what BJM or JM has said about the scenes either.

I heard JM found DR just inside the front room, saw her leg and backed out, heard a baby crying, but didn't want to see his niece like that (per AM) but none of that, not even DR's placement or body condition, was admitted publicly by LE.

I heard something about DR's body condition, concerning her face and head, that was really bad. (rumor? idk. There was someone who said the funeral home did a good job on her face and you couldn't hardly tell. Tell what?) If that's true, it seems that, based on what BJM said in her 911 call, and the leak about DR's face and neck area, they were the only two who may have received beat downs in addition to bullets.

But was it ever confirmed by LE, about the way JM found her? BJM, she said later that she found CR1 covered. Never confirmed by LE and I don't think LE confirmed the appearance of him being beaten. Thanks to the redacted autopsy report, all we know is there was "soft tissue bruising". That doesn't really give us much to go on. I have soft tissue bruising, somewhere, nearly all of the time...

The only way we know that BJM and JM were grilled by the cops is because LM told it. He's been the only real source of info and sometimes I'm not so sure if he isn't blowing some smoke, b/c he says he's going to tell all of this stuff, if this or that didn't happen. In the very beginning he said that, but then he tells about 2-3 different scenarios, that went down, in the days/weeks leading up to this. I understand his distrust of the law. I don't trust most, and I've never even been arrested. Just seen some stuff that has gone in our own region, and state. One thing is for sure, LM's not talking now, DS clammed up real quick after he gave the initial interviews, and LE has been tight lipped from day one. I will say this for Reader, he seemed genuinely shaken by what he saw in those trailers. I'm not ready to throw him under the bus just yet, but hiring his brother, to work cold cases (iirc), was not his best decision.

To add to this, as just as a thought, I have a hard time visualizing JW shooting a 16 year old kid, cowering between his bed and his wall. He'd known that child for years. I see the pics of him with S, and his eyes do not have that hardened look to them. Never have. They don't have a cold look either. You can see warmth in them. I usually study folk's eyes. Some may fool you, but the "eyes have it", most of the time.

IIRC, in one of his last interviews LM said they were under a gag order to not talk about the crimes, probably because of Junk's secret grand jury proceedings. Otherwise, LM would probably still be talking to the news media.
According to DeWine, they haven't learned anything from the GJ proceedings, even though people called to testify can't have a lawyer present or exercise their 5th Amdt rights. Junk is probably keeping the GJ emanated for this case to keep people from talking.

Because of all this it seems highly unlikely any of the Manley were the killers. Killing 8 people in 4 crime scenes leaves a lot of opportunities to leave evidence. A killer might get lucky with one crime scene but not 4 in the same night. I also agree with others that it seems highly n likely that JM, who didn't have much history of violence could kill his own sister, nieces and nephews in cold blood. Same w DS. I could, however, see DS feeding info to the killers about the victims daily schedules, weapons, homes etc.

ETA I also still think some in LE knew immediately who was likely behind the killings. The murders and how they were committed were to send a very powerful message far and wide to LE and others involved in the drug trade and/ or other illegal activities. organized crime was and is very present and powerful in southern Ohio, northern KY, etc. LEs initial focus on LM was probably because they thought he might know some of the people involved. Either that or it was a distraction.

If you were in LE and knew you had to go up against people willing and able to kill you and your entre family while you slept wouldn't you consider looking the other way and try to pin it on some poor local instead?

 

[Bootsctr]

Merry Christmas wishes for everyone, and a Happy New Year soon to come!

Hoping for resolution to this case in the coming year!

So many great posts! Yay! I wish I knew why this case touched my soul so much. Surely the remaining family members must be restless and unsettled with no arrests. The following statement by Len M sticks with me. I think it is a clue that he knows who the murderers are and he is speaking directly to them.

"The Pike County Sheriff's wanted to ask me the same questions the BCI did,'' she said, adding that investigators seem to be fixated on when she found the bodies. They said it was earlier, Bobby Jo says. But she said, she went there around 7 a.m.

"I think they should all just leave us alone,'' she said in a moment between tears.

Leonard Manley looked up as his daughter and sighed.

"Look, we are just hillbillies,'' he said. "We ain't got no revenge in our hearts.''

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/ne...enge-our-hearts-pike-co-family-says/83517330/

 

[Bootsctr]

Hi amauet1 I am going to be ifing! I love that phrase of yours. It is going to be my favorite phrase to use next year. I can see it now telling my clients "ok I am going to be ifing right now but...." LOL Thank you !!!!!

So If DR called Cr1 about the phone call that would mean CR1 at least was alive after 10:30 PM.

If Dr called CR1 to tell him she was home then that means CR1 was alive after 11:00 PM.

If DR checked on HR and CR2 that means both of them were alive at 11:00 PM.

Any one else?

Frankie and HG. And Kenneth. Why Kenneth? Just because they could?

 

[Dudly]

He was apparently correct on there being pot plants there, but, they haven't confirmed anything else, Nor have the confirmed much of what BJM or JM has said about the scenes either.

I heard JM found DR just inside the front room, saw her leg and backed out, heard a baby crying, but didn't want to see his niece like that (per AM) but none of that, not even DR's placement or body condition, was admitted publicly by LE.

I heard something about DR's body condition, concerning her face and head, that was really bad. (rumor? idk. There was someone who said the funeral home did a good job on her face and you couldn't hardly tell. Tell what?) If that's true, it seems that, based on what BJM said in her 911 call, and the leak about DR's face and neck area, they were the only two who may have received beat downs in addition to bullets.

But was it ever confirmed by LE, about the way JM found her? BJM, she said later that she found CR1 covered. Never confirmed by LE and I don't think LE confirmed the appearance of him being beaten. Thanks to the redacted autopsy report, all we know is there was "soft tissue bruising". That doesn't really give us much to go on. I have soft tissue bruising, somewhere, nearly all of the time...

The only way we know that BJM and JM were grilled by the cops is because LM told it. He's been the only real source of info and sometimes I'm not so sure if he isn't blowing some smoke, b/c he says he's going to tell all of this stuff, if this or that didn't happen. In the very beginning he said that, but then he tells about 2-3 different scenarios, that went down, in the days/weeks leading up to this. I understand his distrust of the law. I don't trust most, and I've never even been arrested. Just seen some stuff that has gone in our own region, and state. One thing is for sure, LM's not talking now, DS clammed up real quick after he gave the initial interviews, and LE has been tight lipped from day one. I will say this for Reader, he seemed genuinely shaken by what he saw in those trailers. I'm not ready to throw him under the bus just yet, but hiring his brother, to work cold cases (iirc), was not his best decision.

To add to this, as just as a thought, I have a hard time visualizing JW shooting a 16 year old kid, cowering between his bed and his wall. He'd known that child for years. I see the pics of him with S, and his eyes do not have that hardened look to them. Never have. They don't have a cold look either. You can see warmth in them. I usually study folk's eyes. Some may fool you, but the "eyes have it", most of the time.

I thought it was said at some point that DR was shot in the face and neck five times. That would likely take some work at the funeral home to make her look normal.
I never had the feeling that JW could shhot anyone, but, like you said, some folks fool you...

 

[Dudly]

IIRC, in one of his last interviews LM said they were under a gag order to not talk about the crimes, probably because of Junk's secret grand jury proceedings. Otherwise, LM would probably still be talking to the news media.
According to DeWine, they haven't learned anything from the GJ proceedings, even though people called to testify can't have a lawyer present or exercise their 5th Amdt rights. Junk is probably keeping the GJ emanated for this case to keep people from talking.

Because of all this it seems highly unlikely any of the Manley were the killers. Killing 8 people in 4 crime scenes leaves a lot of opportunities to leave evidence. A killer might get lucky with one crime scene but not 4 in the same night. I also agree with others that it seems highly n likely that JM, who didn't have much history of violence could kill his own sister, nieces and nephews in cold blood. Same w DS. I could, however, see DS feeding info to the killers about the victims daily schedules, weapons, homes etc.

ETA I also still think some in LE knew immediately who was likely behind the killings. The murders and how they were committed were to send a very powerful message far and wide to LE and others involved in the drug trade and/ or other illegal activities. organized crime was and is very present and powerful in southern Ohio, northern KY, etc. LEs initial focus on LM was probably because they thought he might know some of the people involved. Either that or it was a distraction.

If you were in LE and knew you had to go up against people willing and able to kill you and your entre family while you slept wouldn't you consider looking the other way and try to pin it on some poor local instead?

A Mexican National was just busted with drugs again in southern Ohio. Hard to believe they could all be individuals working alone....

 

[Dudly]

Newspaper asks Supreme Court to reconsider....

http://wdtn.com/2017/12/23/newspape...ling-on-pike-county-massacre-autopsy-reports/