OK OK - Jamison Family; Truck, IDs and Dog Found Abandoned, 8 Oct 2009 - #11

[Soulmagent]

Without the dog and the money being in the truck ,it would be a lot harder to presume they were dead wouldn't it?

Without the presumption of death what would have happened to Bobby Sr's estate? Say if Madyson was known to be deceased verses presumed to be alive? Pro and cons?

I just think that for some reason it is very odd that the clause in the will happened to involve a case just like the clause in the will.

 

[ilovemew]

Reading like a champ here but so far haven't seen this answered. Were the remains found buried, out n the open, shallow graves or what?

Wow, Mcstay's and Jamison's both answered. We'll pretty sure the Jamison's. Always googled their name every now and than to see. Brittanee Drexel's the other one I google.

 

[Mitch1]

Without the dog and the money being in the truck ,it would be a lot harder to presume they were dead wouldn't it?

Without the presumption of death what would have happened to Bobby Sr's estate? Say if Madyson was known to be deceased verses presumed to be alive? Pro and cons?

I just think that for some reason it is very odd that the clause in the will happened to involve a case just like the clause in the will.

Death in absentia maybe?? I think there might be a certain amount of time family would have to wait before going through the legal system to have someone declared dead, and there may be even stricter guidelines when it involves a child. That clause can't kick in until the little girl is declared deceased-I would think

 

[Soulmagent]

Death in absentia maybe?? I think there might be a certain amount of time family would have to wait before going through the legal system to have someone declared dead, and there may be even stricter guidelines when it involves a child. That clause can't kick in until the little girl is declared deceased-I would think

No it kicked in the day Bobby Sr died because she was missing so according to the will, it should considered as if she had died first.
Possibly even if she wasn't dead but missing at the time of his death.
I might be wrong ,, about this though.

 

[Mitch1]

No it kicked in the day Bobby Sr died because she was missing so according to the will, it should considered as if she had died first.
Possibly even if she wasn't dead but missing at the time of his death.
I might be wrong ,, about this though.

If its true, it seems like a planned disappearance-my opinion of why and who planned it departs from most though!!

 

[granny5500]

No it kicked in the day Bobby Sr died because she was missing so according to the will, it should considered as if she had died first.
Possibly even if she wasn't dead but missing at the time of his death.
I might be wrong ,, about this though.

Not necessarily...have read that in such cases, the date of death can be determined to be the time the body is found. But who knows how it will play out in this case ?

 

[Soulmagent]

Not necessarily...have read that in such cases, the date of death can be determined to be the time the body is found. But who knows how it will play out in this case ?

It has already played out. I mean with the will and all.

I feel like we will be lucky to get an official I.D anytime in the next few months. Much less a COD ,and not ever with a TOD.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

It has already played out. I mean with the will and all.

I feel like we will be lucky to get an official I.D anytime in the next few months. Much less a COD ,and not ever with a TOD.

We might get a COD, but TOD will be difficult.

 

[granny5500]

It has already played out. I mean with the will and all.

I feel like we will be lucky to get an official I.D anytime in the next few months. Much less a COD ,and not ever with a TOD.

There will surely have to be a TOD officially stated. The money is supposed to be in a trust for Madyson, if she is determined to have died after Bob Sr. then there will be those who will have a legal claim as her next-of-kin. If before him, then could possibly be claims filed by his sisters. It was explained to me that SJ is only the administrator of his estate, not that she was declared his heir. But as is a common statement where this case is concerned, "I could be wrong" !!

 

[SchoolgirlShamus]

Why did they not take the dog with them ? They drove the dog there just to leave it in the truck when they went for a hike?

Yes, absolutely. This dog was tiny. Even Madyson would probably have navigated the terrain better than the puppy.

I think I posted about this earlier in the thread, but I'm very familiar with a campground and nature preserve of about 700 acres in SE Ohio which is generally hilly, wooded, and sparsely populated -- but still, nowhere near as rugged as this part of Oklahoma. However, dogs were not allowed on the property during camping and/or events because of how quickly they could get lost, injured, etc. and the difficulties involved in monitoring/locating them once they dashed off to explore.

There were coyote everywhere on this land; you could hear them crying at night all around the campground, almost like they surrounded it and called to each other across our tents in the small valley, from the woods on one side to the ridge on the other -- very eerie. They sounded like I don't even know what! -- like wailing people, sometimes. It was scary to even head down the walk to the port-o-let at 3 am, and I admit peeing behind my tent sometimes, because I was freaked out by the coyotes' strange sounds, even though I knew they would not come near me.

Coyote are shy of humans, but as I understand it, they WILL attack smallish animals. It's been a long time, but I'm fairly certain I remember a smaller dog (let to run free) who was attacked by coyote on this property, and that's what led to the no-dog rule. I know something did, anyway -- even if it was just a lost dog and the extreme difficulty in maneuvering the hills and ridges and ravines and creeks to find it.

Sooo... from personal experience, I understand COMPLETELY why the Jamisons would leave that little dog in the car if they planned to take an hour's walk, or have a picnic. They did bring hotdogs and a cooler, right? So it sounds like they meant to eat during their trip, whether they did or not. Maybe they went to check out some interesting rocks or scenery or whatever, and get some photos of the general area they dreamed of living in. To me, there is nothing strange about leaving the dog behind on such an excursion. It would slow them down, cause worry, potentially injure or endanger the dog.

BTW, some of the owners of the Ohio property I've talked about -- though fairly familiar with the land and the deer trails etc. -- got lost in the nature preserve section, once (which wasn't all that large -- certainly not consisting of miles!). They had to spend the night outside, and found their way back in the morning. Thankfully, it was summertime, and the livin' was easy.

 

[TooCurious]

Ok, so they were known to be alive after the rainstorm of the 8/9th. Their jackets were in the truck, but they should have had them on because on the 9th the temp did not reach 50 until late afternoon (3) IMO LE was thinking of the nice day on the 8th when the pic was taken. The presence of their jackets in the indicates to me that they left the truck a) in a hurry or b) by force. There are a whole lot of ways to kill yourself but I think freezing to death is at the bottom of the list. Even though they painted the rocks occasionally, the rocks struck me as weights they may have put in back to help ensure traction on muddy roads..... I am not going to believe exposure, I think it is foul play. The lack of evidence for a crime doesn't mean it didn't happen.

 

[SchoolgirlShamus]

Thank's SchoolgirlShamus, though I think the Jamison's were murdered, I'm still interested in the theory the Jamison's died of exposure. I really don't know, but they weren't that far from their truck, and I don't know why they wouldn't have tried to get back to it. It's certainly a possibility though. Geesh, this case can drive one nuts!

That's the thing, I'm sure they DID try to find their way back to it. (Assuming, of course, that they got lost at all. Something else may have happened; I'm just addressing the one thing.)

On this thread, I've mentioned lost person behavior and its strangeness; others here have talked from personal experience about how startlingly easy it is to get lost in the woods, even relatively small woods, and head in the wrong direction in spite of all attempts to the contrary.

If you get really lost, and night falls, and you have no coats, and then it rains and you're wet, and the wood around you is wet even if (...IF...) you have a lighter, and the temperature drops into the 40s... well, that's a potentially fatal recipe.

As I understand it (though I welcome more expert opinions), I think people can die of hypothermia even if the temps are in the 50s and it's damp or wet. Especially at risk would be a child, and two noticeably underweight adults.

 

[SchoolgirlShamus]

Without the presumption of death what would have happened to Bobby Sr's estate? Say if Madyson was known to be deceased verses presumed to be alive? Pro and cons?

What is "presumption of death"? Is that a legal term...? If so, how would it apply to a minor child missing for just a few months with no indication of her death?

 

[SchoolgirlShamus]

Ok, so they were known to be alive after the rainstorm of the 8/9th.

They were? I thought the 8th was their date of last contact with anyone. Why is this timeline so hard to remember? I guess because the dates have been reported wrongly so often? ...Oy.

Their jackets were in the truck, but they should have had them on because on the 9th the temp did not reach 50 until late afternoon

I thought they were out and about on the warmer day, which is why they didn't wear jackets.

There are a whole lot of ways to kill yourself but I think freezing to death is at the bottom of the list.

You don't have to "freeze yourself to death" to die of hypothermia. A person can die at temperatures 20 to 25 degrees above freezing, can they not? You seemed to present yourself as an experienced woodsman, who said this very same thing before, so I'm confused.

 

[TooCurious]

That's the thing, I'm sure they DID try to find their way back to it. (Assuming, of course, that they got lost at all. Something else may have happened; I'm just addressing the one thing.)

On this thread, I've mentioned lost person behavior and its strangeness; others here have talked from personal experience about how startlingly easy it is to get lost in the woods, even relatively small woods, and head in the wrong direction in spite of all attempts to the contrary.

If you get really lost, and night falls, and you have no coats, and then it rains and you're wet, and the wood around you is wet even if (...IF...) you have a lighter, and the temperature drops into the 40s... well, that's a potentially fatal recipe.

As I understand it (though I welcome more expert opinions), I think people can die of hypothermia even if the temps are in the 50s and it's damp or wet. Especially at risk would be a child, and two noticeably underweight adults.

They were heard from on the 9th, so they were alive after the storm passed. The 9th high's and lows were only about 8 degree difference. That is why I am saying they would have had their jackets on. The temp didn't drop drastically it was cool when they arrived on the 9th and stayed that way. If they left their truck voluntarily the clothes they had on during their escapde hould have been enough.

 

[TooCurious]

They were? I thought the 8th was their date of last contact with anyone. Why is this timeline so hard to remember? I guess because the dates have been reported wrongly so often? ...Oy.


I thought they were out and about on the warmer day, which is why they didn't wear jackets.


You don't have to "freeze yourself to death" to die of hypothermia. A person can die at temperatures 20 to 25 degrees above freezing, can they not? You seemed to present yourself as an experienced woodsman, who said this very same thing before, so I'm confused.

On the first two comments, I agree this is confusing but look back at (I think) soulmagent post. They were last heard from on the 9th and last seen on the 8th. The pic was taken on the 8th and it was nice weather. That night a storm passed through with a lot of rain and temps dropped, not getting above 52 I believe.

As for the last comment, that is my fault I wasn't clear. If one of them is gonna do a murder suicide, I don't believe they would march 2.7 miles being extremely cold. They would have dressed comfortably. (Jackets) This is also why I said the temp only dropped like 8 degrees and what they had on should have been sufficient. Yes you can get hypothermia in 50 degree weather or even 60 if you are wet and the wind is blowing hard enough. So if they were dressed "comfortably" and in dense woods (where body was found) they would have been in a survival situation. IMO.

 

[TooCurious]

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - OK OK - Jamison Family; Truck, IDs, money, & dog found abandoned, Oct 2009 - #8

Here is the link I was talking about.

I was just trying to find this link and I saw mtrooper has said it was the 7th, then the 8th. Not 8th then 9th. I think this may be the bigger mystery! Lol

 

[SchoolgirlShamus]

If one of them is gonna do a murder suicide, I don't believe they would march 2.7 miles being extremely cold. They would have dressed comfortably. (Jackets)

I totally agree. In fact I don't see why (if murder/suicide) they would have marched 2.7 miles in any conditions! Them not being found by EquuSearch and the other searches is what tilted me away from murder/suicide. Not exclusively, but for the most part.

Why do some folks claim there were no searches? or that offers for help on searches were turned down? THEY. DID. SEARCH. Even expert search and rescue teams searched. So, wtf.

 

[SchoolgirlShamus]

I was just trying to find this link and I saw mtrooper has said it was the 7th, then the 8th. Not 8th then 9th. I think this may be the bigger mystery! Lol

Dude, I so totally know. I am so confused between the 7th/8th and 8th/9th that I can't keep it straight and I have no idea which is right. As soon as I believe firmly it's one, someone crops up and says definitely it was the other.

I think the dates are crucial, given the weather, as to whether they could have died of hypothermia or not. ..Then again, if lost for more than one night, the point may be moot anyway. (As a side note, people, please stop saying "it's a mute point." I realize you don't realize it, but you mean moot. MOOT. Not mute.)

Anyway, I would tend to believe mtrooper on the dates because she has so exhaustively worked on this case. And yet, somehow, many of us are still confused. Do we know for SURE?

 

[Miranda]

I'm much more of a lurker than a poster so please forgive any slip ups here. I've followed the McStay case quite closely for years but haven't caught up on the past 4 years of the Jamison Family. I realize that these families were lost (and found) under very different circumstances but I just can't seem to shake the parallels. 2 families-87 miles apart. 3 months apart. Found within a couple of weeks of each other. Both seem to have hopped in their trucks to never be seen again. Another poster had mentioned (McStay thread) that the dogs being left unharmed (although certainly alone) suggests a dog lover being responsible. 2 unfed dogs left alone outside would certainly garner some attention eventually. I've read that the Jamison truck seemed to have been ransacked- yet the dog was left- alive. Just all seems awfully coincidental.