People Magazine article about Lisa

[MamaK]

I just posted a thread for the kitten: [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7270013#post7270013"]The Kitten - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

 

[AlmostGone]

A comfort for herself or for her son?

I think for herself...

 

[Just K]

Time for sleep...just now I fear I will dream about the dog gone kitten.

 

[UMfanforever]

Glanced through the article today at the store. Haven't decided whether to buy it or not yet. The two new things I learned,
DB & JI met 3 years ago when she worked at a Payless Shoes.

The kitten was not in the home before JI went to work at 5:20pm. DB says she found the stray kitten after he left and before she went to bed.

She has quite a lot of detail that she remembers if she was so drunk and didn't hear the kidnapper. Now, apparently, she found a stray kitten that night too. Quite an eventful night, but Lisa,not on her mind...Puhhlease. MOO

 

[Melanie]

I was thinking the kitten and her son was being used as "comfort" after she harmed Lisa IMO :0)

That makes a lot of sense. It's human nature for folks (myself included) to want comfort after something tragic happens. Whether it's a box of chocolates, my cats, or my son or husband to cuddle with.

So, yah -- that's a really good point.

MOO

Mel

 

[AngelWings444]

Why are you demanding a link to things that are not only common knowledge in all the media articles so far, but that have been discussed extensively here on WS?

Please do provide a link to refute any of the above. The Irwin's public records, which have been sleuthed extensively on WS, show none of the problems I mention. Please see the other threads where there are links aplenty.

From you earlier, my answers in red: (I don't know how to double quote):

The problem with the "she snapped" scenario is that she has no history.

She was out buying items to care for the little girl, who is, by all accounts, well-cared for. There is no record of DFS visits to the house. They do not have a violent history as a couple. She does not have a long litany of boyfriends, ex-friends, ex-bosses and others saying that she had a history of snapping. She cooks for others. She's friends with her neighbors. She's close to her brother. She's a stay-at-home mom to three kids who are, by all acounts, nice kids and also well-cared for. Indeed, she's the kind of naive, relatively uneducated person who takes in a stray kitten (when most of us would put it in quarantine in the laundry room in a box until we could get it to the shelter or a vet - if we did that much).

The kind of bizarre feeding frenzy that media, and LE using the media keeps trying to whip up just isn't supported by any evidence.

#1: We do not know DFS has not been out there before, as the records are confidential.

#2: We do not know if the couple has a violent past or not, LE has not released any reports, if any, of visits to the home.

#3: We do not know what the father of her older son, her HUSBAND has to say, as his statement, if any, have not been released. We do not know what her ex-friends or ex-bosses are reporting to LE, as that has not been released.

#4: DB "says" she cooks for others and is friends with the neighbor, maybe they are just drinking buddies, not "true" friends.

#5: We do not know that she is so "naive."

#6: LE is NOT fueling the media fire, the family of Baby Lisa are the ones in front of the camera. Why aren't they in front of LE instead?

I tend to believe LE. I tend to not believe people who change their stories and their kid goes missing on their watch. I tend to not believe anyone who would say they chose booze of the care of their sick baby! Seems like she cared more for that little kitten, than her own daughter.

LE has not released all the information on DB, her fiance and the life they were leading, and the statements from "friends, neighbors, ex-bosses, lover's etc." We have NO clue how their lives were being lived. All we know for SURE, is Baby Lisa is gone and their timelines have changed.

 

[gwenabob]

The problem with the "she snapped" scenario is that she has no history. She was out buying items to care for the little girl, who is, by all accounts, well-cared for. There is no record of DFS visits to the house. They do not have a violent history as a couple. She does not have a long litany of boyfriends, ex-friends, ex-bosses and others saying that she had a history of snapping. She cooks for others. She's friends with her neighbors. She's close to her brother. She's a stay-at-home mom to three kids who are, by all acounts, nice kids and also well-cared for. Indeed, she's the kind of naive, relatively uneducated person who takes in a stray kitten (when most of us would put it in quarantine in the laundry room in a box until we could get it to the shelter or a vet - if we did that much).

The kind of bizarre feeding frenzy that media, and LE using the media keeps trying to whip up just isn't supported by any evidence.

History is full of "perfect women" such as your description who do indeed commit horrifying crimes against their family and friends. Being the perfect mom is a pretty good cover, don't you think? Casey's friends thought she was a great mom. Same with Terri Horman. I could go on and on.

 

[BritsKate]

I would be interested in reading some links that show that anyone has just "snapped" without a history of violence and instability, prescription or illicit drug use, etc. Violence is a continuum, and when we do see mothers who kill like this, like Andrea Yates, there is a long history of depression, instability, worries by others over her care of the children. Usually the ex has tried to take the child away because of fears for them, etc. I am not saying it never happens, but I would be interested in reading statistics or studies.

RSBBM

If every mother who murdered their child exhibited any set predictors (such as mental illness or instability) we would be a long way in preventing many of the cases we follow here.

Dr. Susan Friedman has written several papers for various psychiatric/psychological publications on child homicide. Her conclusion is basically that much more research would need to go into identifying any risk factors associated with filicide. Her paper differentiates between women who showed signs of psychosis versus those clearly not psychotic - important since I believe Andrea Yates' crime cannot be directly compared to Susan Smith, Darlie Routier, Diane Downs, et al.

This is the link to that study showing some statistics but I strongly encourage googling her and reading some of her other papers. http://www.jaapl.org/content/31/4/459.full.pdf+html

 

[dovebar]

The problem is, it is those arguing she's a killer who need to come up with a plausible past in which she would do such a thing. You are arguing from "absence of evidence" - as in, WE DO NOT KNOW THAT SHE'S NOT A KILLER SO SHE MUST BE ONE!!!!

Yes, much of this material would be on the public record - if she had one.
This family has been sleuthed. There is nothing remarkable there, given their socioeconomic background.

Second, we would see many more people from her past coming forward, family coming forward, neighbors coming forward, etc. to complain about her past behavior. Again, nothing.

I and others here are simply pointing out that many of the statements being made by posters here are entirely without any evidence - and the burden of proof is on those making the allegations.

 

[dovebar]

History is full of "perfect women" such as your description who do indeed commit horrifying crimes against their family and friends. Being the perfect mom is a pretty good cover, don't you think? Casey's friends thought she was a great mom. Same with Terri Horman. I could go on and on.

Actually, this isn't true. In each of these cases, others had expressed misgivings about their behavior on multiple occasions.

Do we have a predictive test? No.
Do we know what signs of stressors, and dangerous situations are? Yes. Mental health professionals and courts couldn't do their jobs, and save as many kids as they do, and get as many people help as they do, without them.

 

[Whisperer]

I heard one former acquaintance call her a con-artist. I doubt most people would say anything bad about a victim of a crime to the media unless they had a very good reason to do it and it was true.

 

[MamaK]

I heard one former acquaintance call her a con-artist. I doubt most people would say anything bad about a victim of a crime to the media unless they had a very good reason to do it and it was true.

There's a thread about that (Former Friends of DB speak out... or something like that) if you scroll down. I have definite misgivings about taking anything that Sara says as fact. It was a long time ago and the 2 were in a little immature tiff IMO. :twocents:

 

[AngelWings444]

The problem is, it is those arguing she's a killer who need to come up with a plausible past in which she would do such a thing. You are arguing from "absence of evidence" - as in, WE DO NOT KNOW THAT SHE'S NOT A KILLER SO SHE MUST BE ONE!!!!

Yes, much of this material would be on the public record - if she had one.
This family has been sleuthed. There is nothing remarkable there, given their socioeconomic background.

Second, we would see many more people from her past coming forward, family coming forward, neighbors coming forward, etc. to complain about her past behavior. Again, nothing.

I and others here are simply pointing out that many of the statements being made by posters here are entirely without any evidence - and the burden of proof is on those making the allegations.

Maybe people from her past have come forward, just not to media. Maybe they have, maybe they haven't. Personally, I have not made statements as factual, and please forgive me if I led anyone to believe I would do that. My thinking is that DB and JI have changed their story/timelines so many times, something is just not right.

People have made statement regarding LE going to the media, feeding them, making this story be a "frenzy" to the media, I disagree. I haven't seen any such behavior from LE. Quite frankly, I am impressed (although disappointed by my own curiosity), they have been so quiet. They haven't released a darn thing. :maddening:

 

[gwenabob]

The problem is, it is those arguing she's a killer who need to come up with a plausible past in which she would do such a thing. You are arguing from "absence of evidence" - as in, WE DO NOT KNOW THAT SHE'S NOT A KILLER SO SHE MUST BE ONE!!!!

Yes, much of this material would be on the public record - if she had one.
This family has been sleuthed. There is nothing remarkable there, given their socioeconomic background.

Second, we would see many more people from her past coming forward, family coming forward, neighbors coming forward, etc. to complain about her past behavior. Again, nothing.

I and others here are simply pointing out that many of the statements being made by posters here are entirely without any evidence - and the burden of proof is on those making the allegations.

We have seen some former friends coming out. I'm sure there will be more. Just a hunch. I think we will find that DB comes from a very troubled background.

 

[gwenabob]

Actually, this isn't true. In each of these cases, others had expressed misgivings about their behavior on multiple occasions.

Yes. And we are seeing some people who have known her express misgivings about DB's past behavior as well.

 

[n4k]

"And because they hadn't paid their cell phone bill and their service had been restricted, Irwin wasn't able to let Bradley know when he'd be home". Bradley says she was never worried because "I knew he was at work". Still, it was the first time Irwin had ever worked late.



Mel

I apologize if this theory has already been visited--i've only read the first page of this thread and my eyes are crossing--not sure I'll finish tonight, but..


So, JI can't call to say, "I'm working over/will be late..." His first time working night shift. DB, drunk and jealous..thinking he's out with a woman does one of two things: 1. Wanting to hurt JI, she goes after the one (baby Lisa) who owns his heart and takes her jealous rage out on Lisa. OR 2. Leaves the children unattended (obviously done) and goes in search of JI. Comes home to find something happened to Lisa.

I suspect #1 may be the scenario.

 

[gwenabob]

There's a thread about that (Former Friends of DB speak out... or something like that) if you scroll down. I have definite misgivings about taking anything that Sara says as fact. It was a long time ago and the 2 were in a little immature tiff IMO. :twocents:

It was only 5-6 years ago, and I wouldn't call DB trying to seduce Sara's husband "a little immature tiff." That would be a definite and permanent deal breaker for me.

 

[MamaK]

Yes. And we are seeing some people who have known her express misgivings about DB's past behavior as well.

One girl whose husband accused DB of making a pass at him when DB was like around 18??? Then the 2 start going back and forth in a childish manor... like High School students? We're going to say that DB has mental problems based on this account from 7 years ago??? :waitasec:

 

[MamaK]

It was only 5-6 years ago, and I wouldn't call DB trying to seduce Sara's husband "a little immature tiff." That would be a definite and permanent deal breaker for me.

...based on what this woman's ex-husband said? Really? I read through everything that these women have to say, and I'm telling you, it's all very typical kind of junior soldier spouse BS.

 

[gwenabob]

One girl whose husband accused DB of making a pass at him when DB was like around 18??? Then the 2 start going back and forth in a childish manor... like High School students? We're going to say that DB has mental problems based on this account from 7 years ago??? :waitasec:

I believe it is one small piece of her personality. And I believe it shows a lack of respect for other people's relationships, and a total disregard for proper boundaries. I have never in my life made a pass at someone else's husband, not as a teen, not as an adult. It has not been that long since she was 17 anyway. And I do believe she has shown a severe case of arrested development. IMO, she has not matured much beyond the age of 17 today.