Poll for the Armchair Psychologists

[molly333]

Tests don't make a diagnosis. They are a tool. One of many.


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So suddenly tests don't make a diagnosis even though Dr. D. used the wrong test to diagnose her with borderline?

You are quoting Dr. Geffner, by the way, that is exactly what he said.

But, he also said, the tests will give you data points and you look for consistentancy and accuracy.

And, the MCMI said she has NO personality disorders and it is a test which also determines its own accuracy which was high in this case.

But, she also tested high for LOTS of problems in the area of anxiety.

She is not a borderline. She is not a psychopath. But she shows every evidence of high functioning autism, IMO.



"You will not apply my precept," he said, shaking his head. "How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth? We know that he did not come through the door, the window, or the chimney. We also know that he could not have been concealed in the room, as there is no concealment possible. When, then, did he come?"
The Sign of the Four, ch. 6 (1890)
Sherlock Holmes in The Sign of the Four (Doubleday p. 111)

 

[Linda7NJ]

Right. The MMPI is not used for diagnosing personality disorders as Dr. Geffner said. But that is the test that Dr. Demarte used to diagnose Jodi as a personality disorder.

It is the MCMI that is geared to showing personality disorders and Jodi tested normal on that test for all personality disorders. That's because she doesn't have a personality disorder.





According to Geffner, the MMPI test used by the State psychologist Dr. Janeen DeMarte to diagnose Arias with Borderline Personality Disorder was not geared for detecting personality disorders. Geffner added that the more appropriate test would have been the MILAN MCMI, the test administered by defense expert Dr Richard Samuels.

http://www.hlntv.com/article/2013/05/03/get-caught-week-18-jodi-arias-trial

No one used a test to make a diagnoses. It was one tool. There was a history, journals, emails, texts, forensic interview, a plethora of information.

Would have been interesting if they all had access to her parents police interviews.


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[Linda7NJ]

So suddenly tests don't make a diagnosis even though Dr. D. used the wrong test to diagnose her with borderline?

You are quoting Dr. Geffner, by the way, that is exactly what he said.

But, he also said, the tests will give you data points and you look for consistentancy and accuracy.

And, the MCMI said she has NO personality disorders and it is a test which also determines its own accuracy which was high in this case.


She is not a borderline. She is not a psychopath. But she shows every evidence of high functioning autism, IMO.



"You will not apply my precept," he said, shaking his head. "How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth? We know that he did not come through the door, the window, or the chimney. We also know that he could not have been concealed in the room, as there is no concealment possible. When, then, did he come?"
The Sign of the Four, ch. 6 (1890)
Sherlock Holmes in The Sign of the Four (Doubleday p. 111)

Please review the section where DeMarte discusses the float.


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[Nhic]

I am saying that she did not score for borderline on the tests that are meant to diagnose that disorder.

She doesn't have borderline or it would have been seen by the tests.

And, Dr. D should have known that.

What I am claiming may not be right, but it is not false.

Someone needs to test Jodi for autism.

IMO

:floorlaugh: Now that would be a waste of money. She isn't autistic, nor is she an idiot savant. You claimed in an earlier post that she's mentally retarded.

three criteria must be met for a diagnosis of mental retardation: an IQ below 70, significant limitations in two or more areas of adaptive behavior (as measured by an adaptive behavior rating scale, i.e. communication, self-help skills, interpersonal skills, and more), and evidence that the limitations became apparent before the age of 18.


Clearly she does not meet the criteria for mental retardation.

 

[Nhic]

So suddenly tests don't make a diagnosis even though Dr. D. used the wrong test to diagnose her with borderline?

You are quoting Dr. Geffner, by the way, that is exactly what he said.

But, he also said, the tests will give you data points and you look for consistentancy and accuracy.

And, the MCMI said she has NO personality disorders and it is a test which also determines its own accuracy which was high in this case.

But, she also tested high for LOTS of problems in the area of anxiety.

She is not a borderline. She is not a psychopath. But she shows every evidence of high functioning autism, IMO.



BBM

Oh yes she is a psychopath. And she is not a high functioning autistic.

As I said just a minute ago, in an earlier post you referred to her as mentally retarded. Mental retardation and high functioning autism are two entirely different diagnoses.

I don't know if she's a borderline, haven't seen all the tests (have you?), but I'd bet money she's a psychopath through and through.

 

[Linda7NJ]

:floorlaugh: Now that would be a waste of money. She isn't autistic, nor is she an idiot savant. You claimed in an earlier post that she's mentally retarded.

three criteria must be met for a diagnosis of mental retardation: an IQ below 70, significant limitations in two or more areas of adaptive behavior (as measured by an adaptive behavior rating scale, i.e. communication, self-help skills, interpersonal skills, and more), and evidence that the limitations became apparent before the age of 18.


Clearly she does not meet the criteria for mental retardation.

Must admit the "idiot savant" claim made me chuckle out loud. lol


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[molly333]

:floorlaugh: Now that would be a waste of money. She isn't autistic, nor is she an idiot savant. You claimed in an earlier post that she's mentally retarded.

three criteria must be met for a diagnosis of mental retardation: an IQ below 70, significant limitations in two or more areas of adaptive behavior (as measured by an adaptive behavior rating scale, i.e. communication, self-help skills, interpersonal skills, and more), and evidence that the limitations became apparent before the age of 18.


Clearly she does not meet the criteria for mental retardation.

I never claimed she was mentally retarded, or I certainly never meant to.

I know what mentally retarded is and I also know Jodi has an IQ which shows she is highly intelligent.

In fact, I said that right off the bat--she is very intelligent--and everyone made fun of me for saying it--until her IQ scores came out, that is.

But, something has always been 'off' with her, and I now think that something is autism.

Now that I think about it--that's pretty much what her mother said about her--she's very intelligent--the books she brings home to read--but something is wrong...

IMO

 

[molly333]

So suddenly tests don't make a diagnosis even though Dr. D. used the wrong test to diagnose her with borderline?

You are quoting Dr. Geffner, by the way, that is exactly what he said.

But, he also said, the tests will give you data points and you look for consistentancy and accuracy.

And, the MCMI said she has NO personality disorders and it is a test which also determines its own accuracy which was high in this case.

But, she also tested high for LOTS of problems in the area of anxiety.

She is not a borderline. She is not a psychopath. But she shows every evidence of high functioning autism, IMO.



BBM

Oh yes she is a psychopath. And she is not a high functioning autistic.

As I said just a minute ago, in an earlier post you referred to her as mentally retarded. Mental retardation and high functioning autism are two entirely different diagnoses.

I don't know if she's a borderline, haven't seen all the tests (have you?), but I'd bet money she's a psychopath through and through.

Where do you think I said she was nentally retarded?

Are you talking about "Idiot Savant"?

That has nothing to do with mental retardation. That has to do with autism.

IMO

 

[Linda7NJ]

sniped

She's not evil, she is an autistic girl who got in over her head.

This is the saddest thing I"ve ever seen.

IMO

One of the saddest things I've ever seen was the butchered body of a terrific young man left to rot in his own shower for days.... Left there by his murderer.

Another viewing the photos of the damage inflicted on his body by a cold calculated remorseless murderer.

Another watching his siblings everyday their faces filled with pain an anguish caused by a killer that seems to relish their pain and never missed an opportunity to twist the knife a little more.

That's what I find SAD





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[BritsKate]

There is no way on this or any other earth that she is a sexually sadistic Anti Social Personality Disorder. Having worked with them just about all of my career, she is nowhere remotely near it and if she was people would not still be asking questions about it. It's just possible she may be a particular personality TYPE in the Jungian sense of the word, and it is totally misunderstood by the majority type. I can sense a real difference in type on these forums, and clear delineation between intuitive and sensate types. Am I the only one?
To be at the end of a DP trial and still be asking questions suggests that all is not well in the state of Denmark.

Despite convictions, there remain people resolutely convinced of the innocence of Scott Peterson and Darlie Routier too though. I don't think there will ever be, can ever be, absolute consensus either between clinicians or lay people - as we all have our own personal baggage bound to influence opinion. All that said...I don't think she's sexually sadistic either, just sadistic. She fits the diagnostic criteria for the shiny, new antisocial/psychopathic like a glove though, in my opinion.

 

[Angelina Frost]

One of the saddest things I've ever seen was the butchered body of a terrific young man left to rot in his own shower for days.... Left there by his murderer.

Another viewing the photos of the damage inflicted on his body by a cold calculated remorseless murderer.

Another watching his siblings everyday their faces filled with pain an anguish caused by a killer that seems to relish their pain and never missed an opportunity to twist the knife a little more.

That's what I find SAD





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Sadder still is to find that people are determined to provide absolution for a convicted murderer no matter what.

As long as we're part of a media-influenced mob intent on making fun of a poor, sick, maligned little girl though, I'd like to know exactly where sending a dead man's grandmother 20 irises falls into an idiot savant/autism diagnosis.

 

[molly333]

One of the saddest things I've ever seen was the butchered body of a terrific young man left to rot in his own shower for days.... Left there by his murderer.

Another viewing the photos of the damage inflicted on his body by a cold calculated remorseless murderer.

Another watching his siblings everyday their faces filled with pain an anguish caused by a killer that seems to relish their pain and never missed an opportunity to twist the knife a little more.

That's what I find SAD





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Yes it is sad. But, two wrongs don't make a right. Is executing a mentally disabled person even allowed in this country?

Think about this--Is Jodi even capable of relishing their pain, as you say? Does she even know what is going on? How could she sit through those impact statements and look like she was really suffering with them if she is so cold blooded?

You think she was pretending to be suffering? Go look at her face again. She is not pretending. But, there is something very off about it, isn't there?

She can understand the words, she can even feel some of their confusion and pain, but she really can't relate in a normal way--someone said why didn't she hang her head in shame?

Because she's autistic, that's why.

IMO

 

[Nhic]

[Q=molly333;9471320]I never claimed she was mentally retarded, or I certainly never meant to.

I know what mentally retarded is and I also know Jodi has an IQ which shows she is highly intelligent.

In fact, I said that right off the bat--she is very intelligent--and everyone made fun of me for saying it--until her IQ scores came out, that is.

But, something has always been 'off' with her, and I now think that something is autism.

Now that I think about it--that's pretty much what her mother said about her--she's very intelligent--the books she brings home to read--but something is wrong...

IMO[/quote]


From an earlier post of yours:

The State of Arizona is about to execute a mentally retarded girl because she has never been properly diagnosed.


She is not mentally retarded, the State of Arizona is not about to execute a "mentally retarded" psychopath with the initials JA.

Ted Bundy's reported IQ was 124. He was charming when he wanted to be, well read, intelligent, etc. - exactly like JA. He was not autistic, nor was he an idiot savant. LOL

Ted Bundy was a psychopath. So is JA.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Sadder still is to find that people are determined to provide absolution for a convicted murderer no matter what.

As long as we're part of a media-influenced mob intent on making fun of a poor, sick, maligned little girl though, I'd like to know exactly where sending a dead man's grandmother 20 irises falls into an idiot savant/autism diagnosis.

Agreed.

It's one thing when it's someone's job...like her lawyers or hired defense "experts"... That's our justice system at work....That I can understand.


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[Nhic]

Yes it is sad. But, two wrongs don't make a right. Is executing a mentally disabled person even allowed in this country?

Think about this--Is Jodi even capable of relishing their pain, as you say? Does she even know what is going on? How could she sit through those impact statements and look like she was really suffering with them if she is so cold blooded?

You think she was pretending to be suffering? Go look at her face again. She is not pretending. But, there is something very off about it, isn't there?

She can understand the words, she can even feel some of their confusion and pain, but she really can't relate in a normal way--someone said why didn't she hang her head in shame?

Because she's autistic, that's why.

IMO

Epic fail.

The term "mentally disabled" is today's term for what was once classified as mentally retarded.

 

[Nhic]

Yes it is sad. But, two wrongs don't make a right. Is executing a mentally disabled person even allowed in this country?

Think about this--Is Jodi even capable of relishing their pain, as you say? Does she even know what is going on? How could she sit through those impact statements and look like she was really suffering with them if she is so cold blooded?

You think she was pretending to be suffering? Go look at her face again. She is not pretending. But, there is something very off about it, isn't there?

She can understand the words, she can even feel some of their confusion and pain, but she really can't relate in a normal way--someone said why didn't she hang her head in shame?

Because she's autistic, that's why.

IMO

BBM

Umm......no, it's because she doesn't regret slaughtering TA, nearly decapitating him, nor does she have any shame. She's a psychopath.

You might want to read a book or article written by the foremost authority of psychopathy, Dr. Robert Hare.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Yes it is sad. But, two wrongs don't make a right. Is executing a mentally disabled person even allowed in this country?

Think about this--Is Jodi even capable of relishing their pain, as you say? Does she even know what is going on? How could she sit through those impact statements and look like she was really suffering with them if she is so cold blooded?

You think she was pretending to be suffering? Go look at her face again. She is not pretending. But, there is something very off about it, isn't there?

She can understand the words, she can even feel some of their confusion and pain, but she really can't relate in a normal way--someone said why didn't she hang her head in shame?

Because she's autistic, that's why.

IMO

She is not mentally disabled

She is not autistic

She is not an idiot savant. Pointing to "her art" and music is laughable... Belly laughing, rolling in the floor laughing.

I don't care if she lives or dies. Makes no difference to me. I feel she worked very hard and earned a sentence of death.

Of course she is aware of what's going on. Her narcissism keeps her in charge and believing, still, she's the smartest in the room.

IMO her tears could have been her own frustration the siblings testified in person and she didn't get her way that they be videotaped, she could have simply been mimicking what she was seeing, they could have been for herself. I don't know. I'd lay big money it was not empathy for them.


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[MeeBee]

Yes it is sad. But, two wrongs don't make a right. Is executing a mentally disabled person even allowed in this country?

Think about this--Is Jodi even capable of relishing their pain, as you say? Does she even know what is going on? How could she sit through those impact statements and look like she was really suffering with them if she is so cold blooded?

You think she was pretending to be suffering? Go look at her face again. She is not pretending. But, there is something very off about it, isn't there?

She can understand the words, she can even feel some of their confusion and pain, but she really can't relate in a normal way--someone said why didn't she hang her head in shame?

Because she's autistic, that's why.

IMO

BECAUSE SHE IS A SOCIOPATH!! :banghead:

 

[MeeBee]

I was doing a little research so I could better argue why Jodi is a sociopath when I stumbled upon the following article. Interestingly, the very last paragraph talks about Jodi herself:

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...g-the-sociopath-cause-motivation-relationship


"The current Jodi Arias trial has brought the psychological maze of sociopathy back into American culture, a trend that emerges every few years when a legal case has all the fixin's for a super-sized sensational trial. Day after day, Ms. Arias sits in the courtroom, affectless, as if a character in a movie instead of her own life. While my sense is that Ms. Arias is a true sociopath, to see her each day in the courtroom is to see a woman who appears incredibly lost, lonely, and emotionless. In so many ways, she appears to be the perfect face of sociopathy: ever-changing, highly guarded and empty. At the end of the day, she is a powerful reminder of how complex, dangerous and, yes, misunderstood the sociopath remains today."

 

[MeeBee]

I've seen some interesting rationalizations for Jodi, but idiot savant takes the cake.

I also never questioned that Jodi is intelligent. Of course she is. But her 119 IQ isn't highly intelligent. My husband's IQ falls into the highly intelligent range at 137. Jodi wouldn't even qualify for the T and G classes at most schools. It is above average, bright. But most college students have an IQ around the same range. Fortunately, her high IQ means she will never be able to claim "retardation."

Demarte didn't use the tests as the sole diagnostic tool. She said this. She also said it's not wise to rely on the tests alone because Jodi may have been, and seemed to be manipulating them. She used a set of criteria to diagnose Jodi and needed anecdotal evidence from her life, her journals, the people she knew, etc. Demarte seems to be the only expert who got closest to the heart of Jodi's pathology. She said her IQ test was interesting because while all the other scores were average, the verbal score was very high, which is unusual. I read that such a thing signals a disconnect which could point to, among other things, ASPD.

There was a score that was very high on the test, like in the hundreds. The initial was PD. Willmott asked what that was and Demarte said it meant psychopathic deviance. Willmott moved on without inquiring further. I don't know what exactly psychopathic deviance means, but there is a reason why Willmott did not implore about it and moved on quickly, when every other part of the test was picked apart by her.

This girl is a sociopath. No doubt about it.