Poll for the Armchair Psychologists

[2Hip2BSquare]

I think it is a stretch to say someone is born defective, when you have only seen them via media during a murder trial.

I vigorously disagree with taste of honey about a "born this way" BPD---that is conjecture, and interpretation only. I have enormous respect for logic and the rules and ethics of logic, and these assumptions are not logical.[/QUOTE]

Dear SMK:

I will reiterate my claim that it could be nature ("born this way") or it could be environmental ("nurture").
I posted a link before from the NIMH (National Institute of Mental Health) that talked about both etiologies and research backing both.

Maybe you've misinterpreted or skipped my post?

In your post at the end you say it was nature and nurture.

But it sounded as if, after you initially quoted the NIMH On brain abnormalities, that all BPD are "born that way" and that abnormalities cannot be created later in development.

Your first statement essentially negated your conclusion of it being both nature and nurture. Kind of confused me. Sorry.

My neighbors are having sex next door. Keep it down!

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

Yet TA turned out fine and overcame the difficulty. Situations do not define people

What's that saying? Situations don't define people, it's their reaction to the situation that defines them.

Did anyone see the interview in which an inmate who was friends with Arias said she gained respect by telling the other women she (sorry):

Cut up Travis and spread his body parts across the desert.

I always thought she was intending to do this, but did not have enough time. She killed Travis not long after his roommates left for work. She couldn't kill him as soon as she wanted to because she had to wait for then to leave.

Because she was behind on schedule with her alibi, had little time to dismember the body, and had more of a scene to clean up than she expected, she decided to clean up as best she could and leave not knowing when his roommates would be back from work. I feared from the beginning that Travis's neck was a failed decapitation attempt. I feared the gas was to burn his body parts once strewn across the desert.

So when I heard that inmate describe Jodi bragging about her murdering Travis in such a way that was what I thought she might have intended, but did not have the time to commit, made me literally want to puke.

What kind of person does this??

 

[Emmi]

The idea that psychopaths are born, not made, that they arrive into the world as not-quite-human, and that they, these biological defectives, at the same time, CHOOSE to behave in anti-social ways--because, despite having broken brains, they are fully sane--and, thus, are subject to punishments designed to torture the sane ... this very mixed-up idea is the thing that is broken, that is not sane. It is uncivilized and distasteful.

Worse yet, is justifying the idea of destroying, euthanizing, "putting to sleep" human defectives by calling such an action "humane," and using the latest in brain science to back up and sanitize such a revolting position. This is, to my mind, akin to a justification for ethnic cleansing. So I, for one, don't CARE what the science said then, or what it says now, if it is employed as a mask to cover such glib bloody-mindedness.

 

[Gecko100]

The idea that psychopaths are born, not made, that they arrive into the world as not-quite-human, and that they, these biological defectives, at the same time, CHOOSE to behave in anti-social ways--because, despite having broken brains, they are fully sane--and, thus, are subject to punishments designed to torture the sane ... this very mixed-up idea is the thing that is broken, that is not sane. It is uncivilized and distasteful.

Worse yet, is justifying the idea of destroying, euthanizing, "putting to sleep" human defectives by calling such an action "humane," and using the latest in brain science to back up and sanitize such a revolting position. This is, to my mind, akin to a justification for ethnic cleansing. So I, for one, don't CARE what the science said then, or what it says now, if it is employed as a mask to cover such glib bloody-mindedness.

Idi Amin Hitler Pol Pot Robert Mugabe etc. did something similar, I think.

 

[Gecko100]

Well she did brutally murder an innocent person. It's a good thing to be repulsed and angered by that. Hitler, et al are irrelevant. Just because she didn't do something even worse isn't a reason to not give her the death penalty.

When did it become ok to kill someone with a mental illness?
If we undoubtedly know that BPD occurs as a result of childhood damage, then she wasn't behaving 'normally' anyway.
Nor for that matter was he.

Why should we have expected them to?

It has a strong sniff of eugenics to it.
Maybe it has something to do with living somewhere where the death penalty has not been an option since the 1950's.
Even people like the Yorkshire Ripper live humanely and safely,- he is schizophrenic.
The Son of Sam, and Hinkley we murderers too with mental illnesses.

 

[Whisperer]

I've never heard having a personality disorder gives leniency for crimes. Almost every single person in prison has a PD. The only issues that give rise to lessen the seeking of Death is low I.Q (mental retardation), Schizophrenia and perhaps Bipolar w/psychosis.

Almost everyone of them is anti-social at the very least. Having a personality disorder shouldn't stop the Death Penalty from being enforced. Personally, I see no problem with ridding the earth of the worst killers walking around.

Visit the prison, read some files of what they actually did, get some feces and urine thrown in the face, and one may change their mind about their so-called right to live. At that point, the death penalty may not look so bad to those who don't like it.

 

[pinkie60]

I can see
she has a flat affect
She exhibits no fear
She's manipulative
She triangulates every chance she gets
She's superficially charming
Has zero remorse
Has zero empathy
Has zero guilt

Hang on.., this is easier than typing
.....

Here's a link

http://psychopathyawareness.wordpress.com/2011/10/03/the-list-of-psychopathy-symptoms/

She is a psychopath... Textbook Psychopath.




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thank you for posting this. This is an excellent website to get an understanding of these disorders. i agree, she fits all the criteria of a psycopath. fortunately i have never dated, lived with one, altho, i'm sure one of my ex boyfriends mother was one.

 

[Gecko100]

I've never heard having a personality disorder gives leniency for crimes. Almost every single person in prison has a PD. The only issues that give rise to lessen the seeking of Death is low I.Q (mental retardation), Schizophrenia and perhaps Bipolar w/psychosis.

Almost everyone of them is anti-social at the very least. Having a personality disorder shouldn't stop the Death Penalty from being enforced. Personally, I see no problem with ridding the earth of the worst killers walking around.

Visit the prison, read some files of what they actually did, get some feces and urine thrown in the face, and one may change their mind about their so-called right to live. At that point, the death penalty may not look so bad to those who don't like it.

In my work I have been up close and personal with murders rapists and the worst of the worst. I have visited many prisons to assess suitability for parenting. Does that make me qualified to comment?
JA is not a psychopath, nothing anywhere near it. That is the opinion of the State witness and mine.
If I suffered from Borderline Personality Disorder right now, I would be terrified out of my wits at the utter lack of mindfulness and sensitivity of their 'situation' resulting from abhorrent childhood abuse.

The characterisations of their suffering is quite offensive on many levels, so I will not adopt a policy of killing them, they did nothing to earn such brutalisation now or when they were children.
I am also particularly horrified at a State which didn't identify children experiencing childhood abuse, - especially when it goes on for six years.

It is patently obvious to everybody that childhood trauma creates damaged individuals, so why clamour for a death penalty when precious funds could be used to prevent trauma to children, it would make far more sense to treat the problems before they originate, not after?
I have serious questions about a State, public, school and family that allowed abuse to continue for six tortuous years without any intervention.
That's a sick society in my opinion, and no-one has to agree with me.

“La justice flétrit, la prison corrompt et la société a les criminels qu’elle mérite.

"Justice shrivels up, prison corrupts and society has the criminals it deserves."
Alexandre Lacassagne (1843-1924)

 

[Horace Finklestein]

The idea that psychopaths are born, not made, that they arrive into the world as not-quite-human, and that they, these biological defectives, at the same time, CHOOSE to behave in anti-social ways--because, despite having broken brains, they are fully sane--and, thus, are subject to punishments designed to torture the sane ... this very mixed-up idea is the thing that is broken, that is not sane. It is uncivilized and distasteful.

Worse yet, is justifying the idea of destroying, euthanizing, "putting to sleep" human defectives by calling such an action "humane," and using the latest in brain science to back up and sanitize such a revolting position. This is, to my mind, akin to a justification for ethnic cleansing. So I, for one, don't CARE what the science said then, or what it says now, if it is employed as a mask to cover such glib bloody-mindedness.

So just ignore science if you don't like the way you feel about it ?

 

[human]

In my work I have been up close and personal with murders rapists and the worst of the worst. I have visited many prisons to assess suitability for parenting. Does that make me qualified to comment?
JA is not a psychopath, nothing anywhere near it. That is the opinion of the State witness and mine.
If I suffered from Borderline Personality Disorder right now, I would be terrified out of my wits at the utter lack of mindfulness and sensitivity of their 'situation' resulting from abhorrent childhood abuse.

The characterisations of their suffering is quite offensive on many levels, so I will not adopt a policy of killing them, they did nothing to earn such brutalisation now or when they were children.
I am also particularly horrified at a State which didn't identify children experiencing childhood abuse, - especially when it goes on for six years.

It is patently obvious to everybody that childhood trauma creates damaged individuals, so why clamour for a death penalty when precious funds could be used to prevent trauma to children, it would make far more sense to treat the problems before they originate, not after?
I have serious questions about a State, public, school and family that allowed abuse to continue for six tortuous years without any intervention.
That's a sick society in my opinion, and no-one has to agree with me.

“La justice flétrit, la prison corrompt et la société a les criminels qu’elle mérite.

"Justice shrivels up, prison corrupts and society has the criminals it deserves."
Alexandre Lacassagne (1843-1924)

I SO agree. We are willing to spend millions on criminals, but do not want to spend money for good schools, preschools, childcare, parenting classes, just to name a few things that would make a difference.

All I can think about is little tiny babies born , their beautiful eyes, not knowing that some of them are going directly into hell.

I cry to think that some people actually believe that a little newborn is evil. That an uncaring or sadistic or a parent who does not know any better can destroy a child is not a concept some people can grasp.

I think what is happening is that people are thinking of their own childhoods or parenting mistakes they have made . That is all I can see for these unusual, cruel responses to the responsibility of home life.

Those of us who have worked with families and children know and cry about the lost opportunities.

 

[Horace Finklestein]

I SO agree. We are willing to spend millions on criminals, but do not want to spend money for good schools, preschools, childcare, parenting classes, just to name a few things that would make a difference.

All I can think about is little tiny babies born , their beautiful eyes, not knowing that some of them are going directly into hell.

I cry to think that some people actually believe that a little newborn is evil. That an uncaring or sadistic or a parent who does not know any better can destroy a child is not a concept some people can grasp.

I think what is happening is that people are thinking of their own childhoods or parenting mistakes they have made . That is all I can see for these unusual, cruel responses to the responsibility of home life.

Those of us who have worked with families and children know and cry about the lost opportunities.

What about the people who have exemplary childhoods/opportunities, etc but still go out and commit horrible crimes? Or people in horrible homes who end up being successful, well balanced and productive?

 

[Gecko100]

I SO agree. We are willing to spend millions on criminals, but do not want to spend money for good schools, preschools, childcare, parenting classes, just to name a few things that would make a difference.

All I can think about is little tiny babies born , their beautiful eyes, not knowing that some of them are going directly into hell.

I cry to think that some people actually believe that a little newborn is evil. That an uncaring or sadistic or a parent who does not know any better can destroy a child is not a concept some people can grasp.

I think what is happening is that people are thinking of their own childhoods or parenting mistakes they have made . That is all I can see for these unusual, cruel responses to the responsibility of home life.

Those of us who have worked with families and children know and cry about the lost opportunities.

Thank-you, and don't we cry?
Little babies are a tabula rasa with sponge like qualities, they become what they are made, as you know.
I have no idea what people are thinking but I know it is brutish in behaviour.
Science is one aspect of life, if it was all we had to make understanding then we wouldn't have any phenomena.
Phenomena is another aspect of life, if it was all we had to make understanding then we wouldn't have any science.
Both aspects are as valid as each other or we wouldn't be having ongoing debate. I don't mean just on this website, I mean a broader context.
The two systems of thought cannot exist without each other, and why a bit of philosophy can be handy, if a little irritating.:blushing:

 

[Linda7NJ]

In my work I have been up close and personal with murders rapists and the worst of the worst. I have visited many prisons to assess suitability for parenting. Does that make me qualified to comment?
JA is not a psychopath, nothing anywhere near it. That is the opinion of the State witness and mine.
If I suffered from Borderline Personality Disorder right now, I would be terrified out of my wits at the utter lack of mindfulness and sensitivity of their 'situation' resulting from abhorrent childhood abuse.

The characterisations of their suffering is quite offensive on many levels, so I will not adopt a policy of killing them, they did nothing to earn such brutalisation now or when they were children.
I am also particularly horrified at a State which didn't identify children experiencing childhood abuse, - especially when it goes on for six years.

It is patently obvious to everybody that childhood trauma creates damaged individuals, so why clamour for a death penalty when precious funds could be used to prevent trauma to children, it would make far more sense to treat the problems before they originate, not after?
I have serious questions about a State, public, school and family that allowed abuse to continue for six tortuous years without any intervention.
That's a sick society in my opinion, and no-one has to agree with me.

“La justice flétrit, la prison corrompt et la société a les criminels qu’elle mérite.

"Justice shrivels up, prison corrupts and society has the criminals it deserves."
Alexandre Lacassagne (1843-1924)

If you want to post as a professional get verified until such time your opinions carry no more weight than anyone else's.

To claim she did nothing wrong is beyond laughable...Tell that to Travis's family.

What 6 years of child abuse are you talking about?



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[Linda7NJ]

I SO agree. We are willing to spend millions on criminals, but do not want to spend money for good schools, preschools, childcare, parenting classes, just to name a few things that would make a difference.

All I can think about is little tiny babies born , their beautiful eyes, not knowing that some of them are going directly into hell.

I cry to think that some people actually believe that a little newborn is evil. That an uncaring or sadistic or a parent who does not know any better can destroy a child is not a concept some people can grasp.

I think what is happening is that people are thinking of their own childhoods or parenting mistakes they have made . That is all I can see for these unusual, cruel responses to the responsibility of home life.

Those of us who have worked with families and children know and cry about the lost opportunities.

I agree in theory with almost everything written above. The cycle of child abuse is very real....I'm here to tell you every so often a child is born defective and the problem can not be loved or hugged away. Society needs to be protected.

To want to protect society from a unfixable murderous psychopath is a normal response. I can't understand those who liken it to Hitler.

Just curious how do you feel about pedophiles? Is it cruel to want them wiped off the face of the earth too? I think not. There is no fixing that either... Im impatiently waiting for the justice system to rectify that issue. Born or made they need to be removed from society for good.


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[oceanblueeyes]

Travis was attracted to her because of his issues.

That is why it is good,when one realizes that his/her childhood was problematic, to take action and deal with the issues.

Otherwise, people remain vulnerable to play out their needs with others who are wounded.

What?

What issues did Travis have?

I do think based on my own experience of being a survivor of childhood abuses that it left him thinking he should try to take care of anyone who he may have thought needed support and help. That is why he was very nice to Jodi even when she didn't deserve it in 99% of their email/text communications. Jodi was the misfit........not Travis. It didn't take long for the PPL friends to know she was odd.

You are confusing the heck out of me? What needs? Millions of men and women partake in fantasy phone sex. Males who are young and single like to find a female with absolutely no sexual boundaries. Arias offered up something he had never experienced before........a huge platter of sex with no boundaries.

Arias wounded??????????:floorlaugh: Surely you gest. She is the wounderer. She isn't wounded. She is evil, emotionless, remorseless and cold as a stone. She scored the highest on her psyche test in psychopathic deviancy. That is who she is and always will be. A cold unfeeling user and an abuser.

Travis on the other hand had overcome his childhood abuse like so many others except he still felt he had the need to take care of those that others didn't like..........ie Arias. Other than that he had gone on to be a wonderful, giving, loving human being who always stretched out his hand to help others in need. So many give him credit for changing their life for the better. Too bad Arias did not appreciate all the support he gave her even when everyone else couldn't stand her. All she did was abuse him and act out violently when even Travis with his good heart couldn't take her psychotic ways anymore.

IMO

 

[Dicey]

thank you for posting this. This is an excellent website to get an understanding of these disorders. i agree, she fits all the criteria of a psycopath. fortunately i have never dated, lived with one, altho, i'm sure one of my ex boyfriends mother was one.

Love the part about the ex boyfriends mother was one.
:floorlaugh:

 

[Horace Finklestein]

What?

What issues did Travis have?

I do think based on my own experience of being a survivor of childhood abuses that it left him thinking he should try to take care of anyone who he may have thought needed support and help. That is why he was very nice to Jodi even when she didn't deserve it in 99% of their email/text communications. Jodi was the misfit........not Travis. It didn't take long for the PPL friends to know she was odd.

You are confusing the heck out of me? What needs? Millions of men and women partake in fantasy phone sex. Males who are young and single like to find a female with absolutely no sexual boundaries. Arias offered up something he had never experienced before........a huge platter of sex with no boundaries.

Arias wounded??????????:floorlaugh: Surely you gest. She is the wounderer. She isn't wounded. She is evil, emotionless, remorseless and cold as a stone. She scored the highest on her psyche test in psychopathic deviancy. That is who she is and always will be. A cold unfeeling user and an abuser.

Travis on the other hand had overcome his childhood abuse like so many others except he still felt he had the need to take care of those that others didn't like..........ie Arias. Other than that he had gone on to be a wonderful, giving, loving human being who always stretched out his hand to help others in need. So many give him credit for changing their life for the better. Too bad Arias did not appreciate all the support he gave her even when everyone else couldn't stand her. All she did was abuse him and act out violently when even Travis with his good heart couldn't take her psychotic ways anymore.

IMO

Which to me is strong evidence that abuse does not "cause" things. It affects people differently and is one aspect of their lives. People from abusive backgrounds differ widely, so the abuse itself is not a sole determining factor. TA made a good life for himself (balanced, productive, fun), despite the need of some people to square the circle by claiming he had issues (because anyone with an abusive background "must" have issues?).

 

[oceanblueeyes]

If you want to post as a professional get verified until such time your opinions carry no more weight than anyone else's.

To claim she did nothing wrong is beyond laughable...Tell that to Travis's family.

What 6 years of child abuse are you talking about?



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BBM

It is highly offensive to me these lame excuses that are being made for the murderer of Travis.

Of course she did something horribly wrong. That is why the jury voted for premeditated murder and also found it extremely cruel.

Even her own parents said she was a handful starting in her early teens. If we look at all the traits of a BPD with psychopathic traits the picture is clear that Arias is one.

There is no evidence whatsoever................none...........zilch............nada that Arias was ever abused by anyone ......much less by her parents or Travis.

Imo, she was the abuser all along growing up when she didn't get her way. I think she abused her parents and her siblings.

IMO

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Which to me is strong evidence that abuse does not "cause" things. It affects people differently and is one aspect of their lives. People from abusive backgrounds differ widely, so the abuse itself is not a sole determining factor. TA made a good life for himself (balanced, productive, fun), despite the need of some people to square the circle by claiming he had issues (because anyone with an abusive background "must" have issues?).

Yes, and to say that abuse makes someone into a murder is nothing more than an excuse. IMO. Or that one who is abused in childhood will go onto to abuse others is not only false but damn offensive as hell :stormingmad: since millions go onto to be very productive decent, loving, and giving people..........just like Travis.

There are bad people in all walks of life...........it is just commonsense and logical that some criminals will have abuse in their lives just like those who do not have it go onto commit horrific crimes. So what? What about the other violent murderers who lived a pleasured life growing up before their heinous act? It shows abuse is just nothing more than an excuse when a criminal finds themselves in the criminal justice system.

AND in this case there isn't one shred of supporting evidence that Arias was ever abused by anyone.

The psyche docs just like to use the abuse excuse as a catchall when it is nothing more than an excuse.

If that were truly the factor since over 6 million are abused YEARLY in our country we would have an epidemic of monumental proportions of abused children now adults committing millions of heinous crimes. Our violent crime rate has been dropping in the past four-five years. So the abuse excuse is not supported by facts IMO.

IMO

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

The idea that psychopaths are born, not made, that they arrive into the world as not-quite-human, and that they, these biological defectives, at the same time, CHOOSE to behave in anti-social ways--because, despite having broken brains, they are fully sane--and, thus, are subject to punishments designed to torture the sane ... this very mixed-up idea is the thing that is broken, that is not sane. It is uncivilized and distasteful.

Worse yet, is justifying the idea of destroying, euthanizing, "putting to sleep" human defectives by calling such an action "humane," and using the latest in brain science to back up and sanitize such a revolting position. This is, to my mind, akin to a justification for ethnic cleansing. So I, for one, don't CARE what the science said then, or what it says now, if it is employed as a mask to cover such glib bloody-mindedness.

Wow.

Again. Brain Science? How about Neuropsychology?

This seems more like a personal issue with "brain science".