Preliminary Report Human Remains are not Hailey

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If we could talk to the people who saw the body and were convinced that it was Hailey, or thought the clothes matched, I wonder if they would stick with their initial observations or if they have changed their mind about what they saw.

I wonder if those people are convinced that this one is not Hailey.
 
I did some searching to find out how gender is determined in partially mummified remains. I knew that it had something to do with the shape of the pelvic bone and parts of the jaw, but I had questions as to the possibility of a very young teenage girl's bones being mistaken for a small male. I found this right off the bat:

Here's how it would work: a forensic scientist would use a digitiser to create a 3-D map of the pelvic fragment and measure the relevant anatomical landmarks.

The scientist could then determine the sex of the remains by comparing those measurements to the measurements listed in the paper by Bytheway and Ross.

'This technique also has the benefit of being significantly more accurate than traditional visual inspections,' Ross says, according to a university statement.

The report appears in the July issue of Journal of Forensic Sciences.

http://tinyurl.com/bucvf34
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I wonder if the presumption that our body is male was based upon visual inspection or the use of a more accurate technique such as the one described above. Also, if the body is partially mummified, there is a possibility that the pelvic bone is not entirely visible until an autopsy is done, right? Last I read, the autopsy had not been done yet.

I'm sorry for the delicate nature of my next comment but I see no way around it. Some girls reach puberty much later than others. Speaking from my own experience, I was fourteen. Would a prepubescent girl's pelvic bone be harder to identify as female than a grown woman's pelvic bone?
 
TGIRecovered said:
I did some searching to find out how gender is determined in partially mummified remains. I knew that it had something to do with the shape of the pelvic bone and parts of the jaw, but I had questions as to the possibility of a very young teenage girl's bones being mistaken for a small male. I found this right off the bat:



I wonder if the presumption that our body is male was based upon visual inspection or the use of a more accurate technique such as the one described above. Also, if the body is partially mummified, there is a possibility that the pelvic bone is not entirely visible until an autopsy is done, right? Last I read, the autopsy had not been done yet.

I'm sorry for the delicate nature of my next comment but I see no way around it. Some girls reach puberty much later than others. Speaking from my own experience, I was fourteen. Would a prepubescent girl's pelvic bone be harder to identify as female than a grown woman's pelvic bone?
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Their are other differences as well. Most of the time when sex is in question it is in very young children. There is a tell tale sign in the jawbone a well. I would only expect the identy of a skelenton to be mistaken if the body found was of a child under 6 ,which would also rule Hailey dunn out of being this body. Anyway the pelvis is the easiest way to tell ,but when that fails they do have other bones to fall back on . Unless those body parts are missing.

Here is a link on Answers that talks alittle about the bone density and rib cage but it is just a overveiw.
http://www.answers.com/topic/are-there-differences-between-the-male-and-female-skeletons

And here is wikki.
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_skeleton"]Human skeleton - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
 
Mitochondrial DNA (which is found in bones, teeth, and hair) should be able to determine whether or not the remains are Hailey's. IIRC, BD gave a DNA sample to LE. The Tarrant County ME's office houses a state of the art forensics laboratory, which includes DNA analysis.

If the mtDNA of the remains matches BD's DNA sample, then the remains are more than likely Hailey's, since mtDNA is inherited maternally. If the mtDNA of the remains does not match BD's DNA sample, then the remains are more than likely NOT Hailey's.

Although the preliminary report indicated that the remains are those of a male, a thorough autopsy will include DNA analysis (if any viable DNA samples are available from the remains), as well as mtDNA analysis (which will be collected from the bones, teeth, and hair of the victim's remains).

I think we'll eventually know one way or another whether or not the remains are Hailey's.
 
The remains probably still had clothes on, this is why they didn't see the pelvic area right away. Trace evidence experts probably took time with the remains before the clothes were taken off. I would imagine that the remains were only bones. Then again, last year it was so hot and dry, like the desert so the body could have been mummified.
 
I understand people's skepticism regarding the findings but I think it's safe to say that if the detective confirmed it was a male, it would override any erroneous media reports claiming it was Hailey without any confirmation from LE.

LE never once confirmed it was Hailey or even gender. Whoever leaked it was wrong and it is still my belief that the person(s) who leaked the information may have been the person(s) who found the remains. Like I said in an earlier post, perhaps wishing to get the 25,000 - 30,000 reward or inexperience in examining remains and jumped to a conclusion and the media ran with it. Perhaps if the deceased was still wearing clothing, the person assumed because of the colour of clothing, it was female. Who knows.

This is not Hailey. She still needs to be found...hopefully alive!
 
Lera213 said:
The remains probably still had clothes on, this is why they didn't see the pelvic area right away. Trace evidence experts probably took time with the remains before the clothes were taken off. I would imagine that the remains were only bones. Then again, last year it was so hot and dry, like the desert so the body could have been mummified.
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I would agree if the body had been autopsied, but according to the most recent articles, even a "preliminary autopsy", whatever that means, had not been done. This was the day after the remains arrived in Tarrant County morgue.
 
I don't know TGI, just throwing stuff out there, glad you are there to find the flaws because it really does help with my critical thinking process. *smiles*
 
Would mummified remains still have genitals. pelvic bones in 13 yr old might not be definitive. Hailey also had a very strong jaw line -much like her dad's
 
~n/t~ said:
I understand people's skepticism regarding the findings but I think it's safe to say that if the detective confirmed it was a male, it would override any erroneous media reports claiming it was Hailey without any confirmation from LE.

LE never once confirmed it was Hailey or even gender. Whoever leaked it was wrong and it is still my belief that the person(s) who leaked the information may have been the person(s) who found the remains. Like I said in an earlier post, perhaps wishing to get the 25,000 - 30,000 reward or inexperience in examining remains and jumped to a conclusion and the media ran with it. Perhaps if the deceased was still wearing clothing, the person assumed because of the colour of clothing, it was female. Who knows.

This is not Hailey. She still needs to be found...hopefully alive!
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Out of curiousity..even if the guy who found the remains did leak the information perhaps for the reward...why would he indicate it was Hailey with no proof? all last week did was hurt people ;(
 
One puzzle is solved but it has only given rise to another.
Dr. Sridhar Natarajan, Lubbock County's Chief Medical Examiner, spelled out the steps involved in identifying the Big Spring Remains.

"If the individual has some age to them and they've seen a dentist we'll try to obtain dental records. Of course if you're trying to obtain dental records you have to know who the person is to try to compare them to. You would then go back to where the individual was discovered and go through a series of who may have been missing recently," Dr. Natarajan said

http://www.myfoxlubbock.com/news/lo...xas-body/MiTSFz-L20iB5Cx5bZvFCQ.cspx?rss=2345
 
I think height and race of the UID would hve been helpful. Oh and how do you like the how DNA is the last thing he wants to do because of time ,comment quoted in the paper.

Really ,it should be law DNA should be submitted withing days of (like 3) of not having any indication of who a person may be. Maybe when that happens we wont have bodies that are not identifed for years and years.
 
Not that anyone deserves that kind of burial, suggesting an untimely death, but I am relieved it is not another thrown away child.

Will Hailey ever be found? I fear she won't.
 
Curious Me said:
Okay, first they thought it might be Hailey, then it looked like it might be a younger boy, but now it turns out to be a fully-clothed elderly man. I wonder how long ago he died and why he was out there. How sad this all is.

http://www.examiner.com/crime-in-le...ails-emerge-on-remains-found-big-spring-texas
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x_files said:
Why did they initially think it was a small child or female?
This is crazy.
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Sorry to rain on this parade, but after all the rumors... The Examiner site is not MSM, they are 'citizen journalists' the same as you and I are... when I google for the source of this story, the most recent one from MSM with her name is from last Thursday. http://www.cbs7kosa.com/news/details.asp?ID=33446

I mean, sure, Roy B could have called her and she might have told him that, but I am a little gun shy after last week.
 
pdx said:
Sorry to rain on this parade, but after all the rumors... The Examiner site is not MSM, they are 'citizen journalists' the same as you and I are... when I google for the source of this story, the most recent one from MSM with her name is from last Thursday. http://www.cbs7kosa.com/news/details.asp?ID=33446

I mean, sure, Roy B could have called her and she might have told him that, but I am a little gun shy after last week.
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I heard it from Nancy Grace not from The Examiner.
But, she never cleared up the rumors since. I find that odd.
Hopefully, she'll mention it with the new update.
 
For The Kids said:
Out of curiousity..even if the guy who found the remains did leak the information perhaps for the reward...why would he indicate it was Hailey with no proof? all last week did was hurt people ;(
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Hailey is/was a high profile case (??) Perhaps they assumed based on the location? I don't have the answers as to why anyone would leak anything, frankly. It not only hurts loved ones but it could also result in hampering an investigation.

I think we all learned a hard lesson. Unless it comes from LE (not sources !), then we shouldn't jump to conclusions.

"Hailey Dunn's name keeps coming up. I'm not going to speculate. We don't know who it is," claims Sergeant Tony Everett with the Big Spring PD.

He points out that there are 2 other active missing persons cases in Howard County including Arlen Bynum and Bobby Marquez, both have been missing for several years.

"I'm not going to speculate. There is no point," he claims.
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http://www.cbs7kosa.com/news/details.asp?ID=33440
 
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