Psychologists Dr. Jeffery Danziger; Dr. Alan Berns; Dr. William Weitz; Dr. Harry Kro

[gamom]

Well, amazingly enough, there is a diagnosis of Cannabis-Induced Psychotic Disorder. But I think it would be a stretch beyond the reach of any mere mortal to consider her behavior psychotic. JMO

Plus, I thought I read somewhere that KC's friends said she did not really do any drugs with them?

 

[logicalgirl]

So I have a question here ......:truce:..........

We're now at six pages and it just occurred to me to ask posters in this thread a question. :rocker:

Are we sure the experts are actually going after a PTSD or are we just taking a good guess?:waitasec:

Cause it's "not working" for me - meaning I think it is too farfetched to have any impact since I assume that's what the DT is going for. We have posters here who are suffering or have suffered from PTSD, and all have given this idea a "thumbs down",

I understand Dr. Weitz specializes in PTSD, but isn't Danzinger a forensic psychologist? So we could be completely off the mark with this maybe? Maybe Weitz just threw his hat in for "fun"....

Just asking........ can we discuss? illowfight2:

 

[ThinkTank]

So I have a question here ......:truce:..........

We're now at six pages and it just occurred to me to ask posters in this thread a question. :rocker:

Are we sure the experts are actually going after a PTSD or are we just taking a good guess?:waitasec:

Cause it's "not working" for me - meaning I think it is too farfetched to have any impact since I assume that's what the DT is going for. We have posters here who are suffering or have suffered from PTSD, and all have given this idea a "thumbs down",

I understand Dr. Weitz specializes in PTSD, but isn't Danzinger a forensic psychologist? So we could be completely off the mark with this maybe? Maybe Weitz just threw his hat in for "fun"....

Just asking........ can we discuss? illowfight2:

Absolutely on the mark.
We do NOT know for sure that the Defense will try to use the specific diagnosis of "PTSD". We do not know what clinical condition the doctors will testify to when they get on the stand (IF the Judge allows their testimony).

All we do know for sure ... is that the Defense suddenly (6 weeks before trial) wants to put psychologists on the witness stand during the guilt phase of the trial, to help convince the jury that the Defendant did not commit the murder.

We may not know what specific condition the doctors will testify to, until trial (if they are allowed to testify), because the doctor's depositions will likely not be released to the public, the doctor's Reports will not be released, the Defense is not going to write what the doctor's will say in any Motions they file regarding these witnesses.

We should not assume the Defense theory will involve PTSD. We do not know that for sure. All we know is that the doctor they want (desperately) to add to the Guilt Phase of the trial, is a specialist in that disorder.

 

[sleutherontheside]

I think the entire PTSD theory started because of the mental health experts that have visited her have experience in that area.

I do recall that during early LE interviews there were questions about KC's birth (CA's pregnancy) whether Cindy drank, etc..... there were also questions about Caylee's birth, if there were any bonding issues after delivery, etc..

I think that early on, there were hints of a possible PPD or PPP argument as Terry Lenamon has opined on those topics before. He had also published some blogs or other articles about filicide.

The PTSD theory also arrived around the time that Dr. Gold (sp) visited KC as he specialized in sexual abuse, trauma, and incest.

IMO the ONLY PTDS argument that could even be made would be during mitigation. It would likely cite family dysfunction, unwanted pregnancy, and possibly...just possibly...claims that KC's miscarriage caused her body to remain out of whack and that the hormone imbalance contributed to her erratic behavior.

So many references to her alleged miscarriage etc.....gives me reason to think that it is an avenue the defense wishes to explore if needed.

 

[strawberry]

I think the entire PTSD theory started because of the mental health experts that have visited her have experience in that area.

I do recall that during early LE interviews there were questions about KC's birth (CA's pregnancy) whether Cindy drank, etc..... there were also questions about Caylee's birth, if there were any bonding issues after delivery, etc..

I think that early on, there were hints of a possible PPD or PPP argument as Terry Lenamon has opined on those topics before. He had also published some blogs or other articles about filicide.

The PTSD theory also arrived around the time that Dr. Gold (sp) visited KC as he specialized in sexual abuse, trauma, and incest.

IMO the ONLY PTDS argument that could even be made would be during mitigation. It would likely cite family dysfunction, unwanted pregnancy, and possibly...just possibly...claims that KC's miscarriage caused her body to remain out of whack and that the hormone imbalance contributed to her erratic behavior.

So many references to her alleged miscarriage etc.....gives me reason to think that it is an avenue the defense wishes to explore if needed.

BBM That was all in the FBI questionnaire they gave CA and GA. The one where CA gave ICA glowing reviews and GA...not so much.

PS I was reading your Diary of Days in the Parking Lot. Too funny!

 

[ThinkTank]

Ms. Lyon (bet she's glad she got outta Dodge) wrote many papers on how all that pyschological and environmental mitigation stuff absolutely has to be brought up in the guilt phase just in case. Otherwise, if you don't start laying the groundwork for sympathy toward the defendant, you get a jury that is angry and unsympathetic and wants the DP. If an attorney can weave psychological issues into the guilt phase, then it probably primes the jury for the appeal for compassion at the penalty phase because the defendant is not necessarily seen as pure evil but very messed up.

IMO, this was a bone of contention between AL and JB (who at the time was off to the races with all the ridiculous SODDI stuff). She was the one who brought in that gal who spent hundreds of hours with her, and AL most likely emphasized how vital it is to get that in early in a DP case, perhaps over JB's arrogant objections. My guess is that all the other (experienced) attorneys have reinforced that notion to JB, or maybe he is finally coming to realize that his client doesn't have a snowballs chance and that he'd better do something to explain her odd, inappropriate, off-putting behavior during those 32 days (which is still glaringly apparent as she sits doodling in court, and is likely to tick off jury members unless they see her as "different" from the get-go). But this strategy has absolutely nothing to do with innocence, imo. It's more about greasing the wheels for LWOP, I'd think.

That makes a LOT of sense!
Curious to me that Finnell joined the DT in September 2010 for the mitigation phase, and was not able to convince JB to add this psychological evidence/witnesses until a few weeks ago!!!

I'm sure the Defendant was adamant about not allowing her attorneys to insert ANY type of mental/psychological disorder into her case.
Now that they are running out of theories and cards up the sleeve .... they may feel forced to go along with what AL told them to do to begin with?

 

[strawberry]

I suppose even if the judge orders an evaluation for the State, ICA could just curl up in a ball and refuse to answer questions or throw stuff out to "thwart" them. I'm thinking with her personality though the DT won't be able to talk her into keeping her mouth shut.

 

[LambChop]

I think the entire PTSD theory started because of the mental health experts that have visited her have experience in that area.

I do recall that during early LE interviews there were questions about KC's birth (CA's pregnancy) whether Cindy drank, etc..... there were also questions about Caylee's birth, if there were any bonding issues after delivery, etc..

I think that early on, there were hints of a possible PPD or PPP argument as Terry Lenamon has opined on those topics before. He had also published some blogs or other articles about filicide.

The PTSD theory also arrived around the time that Dr. Gold (sp) visited KC as he specialized in sexual abuse, trauma, and incest.

IMO the ONLY PTDS argument that could even be made would be during mitigation. It would likely cite family dysfunction, unwanted pregnancy, and possibly...just possibly...claims that KC's miscarriage caused her body to remain out of whack and that the hormone imbalance contributed to her erratic behavior.

So many references to her alleged miscarriage etc.....gives me reason to think that it is an avenue the defense wishes to explore if needed.

BUT, and it's a big BUT, if KC never saw a doctor to confirm she actually had a miscarriage it could be just another lie. If KC were to have had a miscarriage she would have known it and so would everyone around her. It's very, very painful. I do not see the A's missing that one unless she was staying with friends. KC would not be the first person to claim they had a miscarriage just to get attention. Happens a lot when couples break up especially if the effect you want to make is to make the other person feel guilty. Old bf shows up at a party with his new gf and suddenly KC has a sad story that no one, no one has heard before. Amazing.

 

[sleutherontheside]

BUT, and it's a big BUT, if KC never saw a doctor to confirm she actually had a miscarriage it could be just another lie. If KC were to have had a miscarriage she would have known it and so would everyone around her. It's very, very painful. I do not see the A's missing that one unless she was staying with friends. KC would not be the first person to claim they had a miscarriage just to get attention. Happens a lot when couples break up especially if the effect you want is to make is to make the other person feel guilty. Old bf shows up at a party with his new gf and suddenly KC has a sad story that no one, no one has heard before. Amazing.

That was my point exactly......that because she had already floated the "alleged" miscarriage story....and it was mentioned in depositions, the DT could build on it and argue PPD or PPP.

 

[logicalgirl]

That makes a LOT of sense!
Curious to me that Finnell joined the DT in September 2010 for the mitigation phase, and was not able to convince JB to add this psychological evidence/witnesses until a few weeks ago!!!

I'm sure the Defendant was adamant about not allowing her attorneys to insert ANY type of mental/psychological disorder into her case.
Now that they are running out of theories and cards up the sleeve .... they may feel forced to go along with what AL told them to do to begin with?

And isn't this what Terry Lenamon (sp but you get it) suggested almost from day 1 but got immediately shot down? He strongly recommended the psych defense from the get go.

 

[ThinkTank]

The other fact that leads to suspicion that the Defense team plans to use the NEW Guilt phase doctors in some kind of Defense theory to offer reasonable doubt that the Defendant did not do the crime, is that the Defense Motion filed on March 22nd, included the two mental health doctors AND the George protester shoving witnesses. The timing of the Defense adding all FOUR of these NEW witnesses at the same time, sent up red flags. Looks like the Defense plans to blame George and use mental health doctors to shore up that Defense theory.

2011.03.22 Defense Motion Clarifying Motion for Leave For Additional Witnesses
http://www.docstoc.com/docs/7480096...ing-Motion-for-Leave-For-Additional-Witnesses
1 - Dr. Danziger - NEW to Guilt Phase
2 - Dr. Weitz - NEW to Guilt Phase
3 - Kenneth Lewis - State Atty re Maya Derkovic - NEW to Guilt Phase
4 - Sharon Cadieux - George shoving incident - NEW to Guilt Phase
5 - Daniel Kondos - maintenance man on Suburban Dr - NEW to Guilt Phase
6 - Patricia Young - George shoving incident - NEW to Guilt Phase

 

[cecybeans]

So do we think KC is aware of what her attorney's intentions are?

I think ICA lives in the same fantasy world as her mom who models a kind of skewed Cartesian reasoning. "I think, therefore it's true!"

And it's obvious she doesn't think more than five minutes ahead (or Amy's money would have bought more than paper towels and beer and Cindy would have heard a much better story than the Imaginanny). So I'm kinda thinking she's more interested in what clothes she might get to wear for trial and how she could do her hair and whether NG is going to come crawling on her hands and knees begging for an exclusive interview. Even if she didn't have an attorney as clueless and self-promoting as JB, she'd still be spending one day at a time in la-la land I think. Living La Bella Vita Loco.

 

[momshrink]

I think that the DT is grasping at straws and throwing everything they can up against the wall to see what will stick - and so far, nothing has.

:great::great::great::great:

 

[cecybeans]

That makes a LOT of sense!
Curious to me that Finnell joined the DT in September 2010 for the mitigation phase, and was not able to convince JB to add this psychological evidence/witnesses until a few weeks ago!!!

I'm sure the Defendant was adamant about not allowing her attorneys to insert ANY type of mental/psychological disorder into her case.
Now that they are running out of theories and cards up the sleeve .... they may feel forced to go along with what AL told them to do to begin with?

I think you could be right. My guess is that most experienced DP attorneys buy into that line of thinking these days anyway and Finnell probably assumed JB wouldn't either be so arrogant or idiotic as to bypass it altogether with the crazy SODDI stuff (most theories have been ripped to shreds and met laughter on various forums). It might have taken Finnell a while to talk him into it (probably backed by CM's years of experience), and then even longer for him to explain to ICA that this was "just in case". Not that she would mind anything having to do with throwing either of her parents under the bus whatever the reason. I'm thinking that the DT's potential ruse of tossing GA out into the road has more to do with setting up a backdrop of PTSD for ICA than anything else. The evidence doesn't fit anyone but her - it's too much of a stretch to think GA would be guilty of anything else, and they have all that handy footage of him losing it with the protestors to make it look like he has anger management issues or something. Not that I think a jury is going to go for that. All they need to see are those stripper pole shots and PTSD may go the way of the delayed-PPD-based "ugly coping" strategy that TL trotted out early on. Good luck with that! Nobody will buy ICA puffing herself up over "being the manager of the shot girls at Fusian" and her Tupperware Party Twittering about the latest Fusian "happening" to all her friends like she was some kind of concert promoter as post-traumatic anything.

One thing is clear though; no juror is going to look at her behavior (in court alone) and think there is anything normal about that girl.

 

[strawberry]

In the first day of Jailhouse videos, CA is annoyed they have to wait for ICA. She says "we've been watching you sit there." ICA says oh I was talking to one of the doctors. In the afternoon session, CA asks if she has been able to talk to any of the psychologists or psychiatrists and ICA responds "every day. that's who you saw me talking to." CA asks if she felt she could open up to them and ICA said no.

 

[logicalgirl]

The other fact that leads to suspicion that the Defense team plans to use the NEW Guilt phase doctors in some kind of Defense theory to offer reasonable doubt that the Defendant did not do the crime, is that the Defense Motion filed on March 22nd, included the two mental health doctors AND the George protester shoving witnesses. The timing of the Defense adding all FOUR of these NEW witnesses at the same time, sent up red flags. Looks like the Defense plans to blame George and use mental health doctors to shore up that Defense theory.

2011.03.22 Defense Motion Clarifying Motion for Leave For Additional Witnesses
http://www.docstoc.com/docs/7480096...ing-Motion-for-Leave-For-Additional-Witnesses
1 - Dr. Danziger - NEW to Guilt Phase
2 - Dr. Weitz - NEW to Guilt Phase
3 - Kenneth Lewis - State Atty re Maya Derkovic - NEW to Guilt Phase
4 - Sharon Cadieux - George shoving incident - NEW to Guilt Phase
5 - Daniel Kondos - maintenance man on Suburban Dr - NEW to Guilt Phase
6 - Patricia Young - George shoving incident - NEW to Guilt Phase

You could be right on the money there although hasn't he dropped one of them - Sharon Cadieux was it?

 

[logicalgirl]

In the first day of Jailhouse videos, CA is annoyed they have to wait for ICA. She says "we've been watching you sit there." ICA says oh I was talking to one of the doctors. In the afternoon session, CA asks if she has been able to talk to any of the psychologists or psychiatrists and ICA responds "every day. that's who you saw me talking to." CA asks if she felt she could open up to them and ICA said no.

I'm not sure I believed her back then Strawberry.....y'know?

 

[Ada]

I don't think this diagnosis would help her at all. The hallmark of this diagnosis is no remorse or regret - except as it interferes with HER life. For example, Ted Bundy hated being in jail, but did not feel remorse for killing his victims. Some of the criteria for diagnosing this disorder are disregard for and violation of the rights of others such as repeated lying, impulsivity or failure to plan ahead, consistent irresponsibility (not honoring financial obligations, repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior) and lack of remorse (beng indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated or stolen from another).
Prisons are full of people with these behaviors - death roll in particular.
JMO and :twocents:

I will LMAO if the DT used Antisocial Personality Disorder as her defense. Part of me hopes they do. :floorlaugh:

 

[watcher9]

If these motions are granted, does that automatically open the door for the SA to be able to present their side that there was nothing mentally wrong with ICA to the jury even if the DT decides not to go with defense for trial?

 

[RR0004]

I'm confused...if Baez goes with a mental defense...will it be used to
a) explain why Casey didn't call SOMEONE when her daughter went missing...or
b)why Casey made up imaginary people (and jobs)...or
c) why Casey killed her daughter?
Where would he be going with this kind of defense?