Reasonable Doubt

[magnolia]

"So for motive, we have nothing."

*Snipped*

The State does not have to prove how or why she did it.

 

[jinnimae]

I was thinking that reasonable doubt can be established based on the fact that the car was out of her possession for weeks a few weeks. Other people had access to that car when it was in the tow yard. One of those people could have used the car to move a body, then there's the decomp smell. Something from the car could have been removed and put in the yard so there's the explanation for the hit in the yard.

But, I'm sure LE has fingerprinted the car and anyone who (they knew) who came into contact with it. So, if "The Others" had actually used the car to move a body, LE would know, by process of elimination.

 

[magnolia]

I have a firm belief that when this case is presented in full...the Prosecution will have left no room for any doubt at all. Their forensic evidence and all the other evidence they have obtained during the investigation including testimony will prove Caylee is deceased, she was in the care of Casey at the time, Casey will be connected directly to Caylee's death, and that there is no other way it could have taken place. I am not the least bit worried they cannot prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt.

I hope your firm belief is right.

 

[BetsyB]

At first glance, the pictures APPEAR to show a loving mother, I agree.

When we stop & think about Casey & her 'history' we realize...

How long does it take to snap a photo.... it's easy to look happy for a split second.

What would the pictures show IF Casey was a REAL full time mother & not just a fill in when she wasn't off having fun with her friends?

Having a cute kid is a real attention getter.... it's a positive as long as your friends are still cooing over the kid.... what happens when having a toddler around starts to make your friends feel self-conscious about their own behavior... they're young & single & want to have fun.

Exactly.

Casey is a sociopath. Appearance is everything because, well---there's NOTHING beneath the surface. There is not any capacity to form meaningful relationships---there is appearance, and appearance alone.

Casey smiled for the camera, therefore she was happy.
Casey made pasta for Tony, therefore she was a wonderful girlfriend.
Casey did the boy's laundry, therefore she was caring and domestic.
Casey wore a flag to a party, therefore she was a fun, fun friend.
Casey danced with girls, therefore she was open-minded and sexy-cool.
Casey pretended to have a job, therefore she was an important career woman.
Casey sent text message after text message, therefore she was a thoughtful friend.
It goes on and on and on.

AND IT ALL WAS A LIE--every. single. thing.

I don't think a reasonable jury will be fooled for long. All they need to do is see her very well-documented behavior since Caylee's disappearance. Her continuation of life "as usual" with NO mention of a missing daughter and NO behavior to suggest distress. Followed by her cold, cold silence once it became known.

No one will be fooled.

 

[Brini]

I was SHOCKED when Baez said to Greta that he could not respond to her questions (the other night On The Record) b/c it is part of his Opening Statement? Almost as damning as " . . . my daughter's been looking for. I told you my daughter was missing for a month. I just found her today. But I can't find my granddaughter. She just admitted to me that she's been trying to find her herself. There’s something wrong. I found my daughter's car today and it smells like there's been a dead body in the damn car." 911 call #3

Duh :bang:

Exactly! Easy one!

 

[Brini]

But, I'm sure LE has fingerprinted the car and anyone who (they knew) who came into contact with it. So, if "The Others" had actually used the car to move a body, LE would know, by process of elimination.

Yes! The "others" would have had to climb the wire fence carrying the body, put it into the trunk unseen. Then, a few days later, do the reverse.

KC would have to explain how se managed to overlook the smell, or why she had to tell several more lies to explain it.

There ARE no others. There never were. And everyone with whom she has communicated in any way, has been cleared. The rest is KCs fictions.

 

[BetsyB]

<<reasonable doubt can be established based on the fact that the car was out of her possession for weeks>>

You may be right. I have thought about the fact that she can say the car wasn't in her possession for weeks to create reasonable doubt. Cindy has already alluded to that when she said something to the effect of "there was no odor before the car was towed .... no odor". Homicide is going to be hard to prove without a body in this case.

It's going to be very hard for any jury to swallow that the person who happened to steal Casey's car just happened to be the very same person who needed a place to stow --not just any body---Caylee's sweet little body. The forensics are going to make it very difficult for this argument to create reasonable doubt, IMO.

 

[Brini]

Honestly, I think with what we have right now, she could walk on everything connected to Caylee.
Yes, she has lied, but Casey was not the last verified person to be seen with the child, that would cast doubt.
We know of at least one very reputable expert who would testify that the technology used to detect decomp is hardly better than experimental.
THe same expert would testify that there are possibly other things that can form the bands on the hair. The banding is what is being determined as evidence that Caylee is dead.
As crazy as her story is, she has stuck to the important points, when, where, who.
There is only one person in the statements we have seen, that has said that Casey did not want Caylee and that person already destroyed her credibility by swearing that Casey called her for money and then backtracked and said it was a different Casey.
The car showing the signs of decomp was out of her possession. Even though there are no signs of tampering, the car was out of her possession for a little while.
There were no former complaints of abuse of mistreatment against anyone involved with Casey.
There are people, many of them, that will testify that Casey knew she could have signed Caylee over to her parents if she no longer wanted her and had no reason to do anything to her.
So for motive, we have nothing.
Opportunity, yes.
Means, yes.
A jury would be reluctant to send a 23 year old woman to jail. ( I think she will be 23 by the time she goes to trial.) They would need more than circumstantial evidence.
Remember, even though she has lied, I am sure that there will experts called to the stand to speak about compulsive lying.
ANd as far as proving Caylee is dead, good luck. There is evidence, but it is already being highly disputed as to whether or not the tests themselves are reliable. You can bet it will be ten times worse in court.

DNA, hair bands, air tests, and cadaver dogs are not experimental. ALL have been used to support successful prosecutions, in court. Chloroform in the trunk? Hasn't been used by consumers, even by medical people in 20 years.

Tests by the FBI lab, then conformed by two other labs unreliable? The FBI has one of the best forensics labs in the world. Sometimes they use it to assist Interpol.

WHO was the last verified person to see Caylee, other than KC? The non-existent nanny?

It looks to me like the only person who had the car and the baby was KC. To tamper with the car, one would have to climb a wire fence with barbed wire on top with the corpse, and put it in the trunk, unseen. Then, a few days later, climb the SAME fence and take the body back out.

Then, there are the computer forensics (searches of missing child sites before the incident, chloroform).

The endless and changing lies are the LEAST of it.

Of course, if LE follows the pings to the grave, it's icing on the cake.

People have gone away with a LOT less.

And, THIS is just the evidence we KNOW about!

I don't think any 12 people would be dumb enough to overlook or rationalize away all that.

BTW-- The prisons are full of sociopaths in their 20s.

 

[lucy54]

THANK YOU for this thread. I've been saying this for awhile. They have been building their defense since day 1. With so many questions, lies, twists and turns a jury will have a difficult time convicting "beyond a reasonable doubt". IMO having daddy's knowledge (of homicide cases) in LE and the "31"days to blur the time of death and evidence they have been creating doubt from the first day.

I thought this at first too. But there is a lot of evidence that hasn't been released yet. I am hoping LE will use that evidence to prove their case. Also, GA was a deputy not a homicide detective when he worked for LE. I am pretty sure it was proven that he mostly was a traffic deputy patrolling the streets and writing speeding tickets. I really don't think he helped KC cover this up. I think he and CA are now defending her just b/c it's their daughter and they don't want to believe she did this.

 

[Brini]

Yes, but lots of people have issues with controlling parents. Likely there will be at least one on the jury and it very likely that they will not have killed anyone. There are statement after statement saying that Casey and Caylee's relationship was affectionate and normal. If it goes to trial on murder charges, in any degree, the jury will be able to say that she was a bad parent, but that does not make a murderer.
It is a long stretch from "My mother loves Caylee, I want to hurt my mother." to "I am going to hurt Caylee because that would hurt my mother."
it's a possible motive, but very shaky.
I just don't think it will fly, with the statements and witnesses that will be presented.

How do you KNOW what evidence will be presented? What they have now is MORE than enough, and that's not all of it, per LE.

Only ONE person had motive, method, and opportunity-- KC.

Lots of people DO have issues with controlling parents. Few of those are sociopaths.

 

[Brini]

I believe that KC is guilty, and I believe that Caylee is deceased. But a conviction to the crime is ultimately going to boil down to reasonable doubt.

This may not have anything to do with reasonable doubt, but I think LE is going to have to present an ironclad timeline to make this stick without Caylee being found.

Here is my concern:

June 16: GA sees KC and Caylee
June 18: Shovel borrowed/car backed into garage
June 24: Gas cans reported stolen. George in KC's trunk, no smell noted.
June 25: First known instance of "smelly car" cover story emerges (to Amy)

If we are to believe that KC didn't hide Caylee in the backyard somewhere, despite the dogs hitting on several spots, then based upon the known facts it would seem that the body would have been in the trunk at some point on or before June 18th, right?

Yet, in his conversation with Greta about the gas cans GA noted he went to the trunk of KC's car - despite her protests against him doing so - to get a tool to assist him with work on CA's car (i.e., tire rotation). This is important to note: He never mentioned a smell. Wouldn't there have been one by then, assuming KC killed Caylee on June 16th, and had her in the trunk at some point?

If we are to believe she had her hidden in the backyard until June 18th, when she borrowed the shovel, the body - now decomposing - still would have been in the trunk at some point.

Something just doesn't add up in my mind when reviewing these facts.

Any thoughts?

The dogs (two different dogs from two different counties) hit on the yard AND the car.

The body takes a few days to decompose (though it would start w/i hours).

The smell becomes obvious, when the trunk or the car doors are open, not obvious when it's sealed.

The two truck driver said he had a heavy cold, and could not smell, but a yard worker and the manager complained of the stench to LE.

What doesn't add up?

 

[cfromcanada]

Reasonable doubt.

Bounty Hunter Leonard Padilla has been on every show he can be on all night including Greta. In each of these shows, what could be the "new" defense story had started to blossom via Leonard's casual remarks. The following assumes you know several things about this case thus far before reading further:

1. Who Casey called that wasn't a family member on June 16th (3 friends)
2. Where some of those people may have been or are at the present time (Georgia and Puerto Rico)
3. Which of these people are or were former law enforcement

In nearly every interview Leonard Padilla gave this evening, those pieces of information relate directly to the statements he made about what he believed may have happened and why he thinks Caylee is alive. As Casey's attorney Jose Baez said last night on Greta, the explanation of why Casey did not report Caylee missing for 31 days "would be covered in his opening statement" -- we think Leonard gave mondo hints about what that statement might contain tonight. For example:

• Leonard said that he believed Casey gave her to a "friend" (who isn't the Gonzalez chick Casey named long ago) for a couple of days who didn't bring her back
• He alluded to "Georgia" and "Puerto Rico" as where folks could be who have or have had Caylee
• Jose's co-council Mike Walsh said in an MSNBC interview a couple weeks ago that one of Casey's closest friends "had mental issues"
• Casey doesn't trust law enforcement

The allusion here is that one of the 3 friends would still have Caylee. (In weaving this tale, all defense parties involved would have to completely discount the car and it's contents - which we believe they have done for a while). In a murder or manslaughter defense to cast reasonable doubt, those friends would need to have an alibi for some period of time on June 16th when Caylee went missing. God forbid any of those people babysat Caylee on that day, or even just saw Casey and Caylee together that afternoon of June 16. Start thinking about it, folks. We can see this one coming, and why shouldn't we? Casey's been in jail for a month and had lots of time to create a new drama. This time though, it's going to affect people around her who DO know her.

LP changed his mind some time ago that Caylee is alive. Those statements were made when he first bonded KC out of jail.

 

[Brini]

Then, there is also the fact that KC has never showed any mourning behavior. She seems to have been having the time of her life!

That every, single person with whom she even SPOKE on the phone or to whom she texted has been cleared by LE.

That no one whom KC has accused exists, ir they do exist but she doesn't even know them (JH).

SO.. if any one thinks that any OTHER person has motive, method, and opportunity,...lets hear the name and the evidence.

Thanks!

 

[Brini]

At first glance, the pictures APPEAR to show a loving mother, I agree.

When we stop & think about Casey & her 'history' we realize...

How long does it take to snap a photo.... it's easy to look happy for a split second.

What would the pictures show IF Casey was a REAL full time mother & not just a fill in when she wasn't off having fun with her friends?

Having a cute kid is a real attention getter.... it's a positive as long as your friends are still cooing over the kid.... what happens when having a toddler around starts to make your friends feel self-conscious about their own behavior... they're young & single & want to have fun.

Are they going to be relieved when they hear your daughter is with her grandmother or off with some 'babysitter?'

Is it important to you that you still fit in with the gang... even though you have grown up responsibilities that cut into your fun time?? What do you do?

Yes, Scott Peterson's family piccies looked great, too!

 

[Brini]

Please listen to all 3 911 tapes in their entirety. They tells the whole story. She concocted this story because her mom was putting her away and taking Caylee. She said right to her on the 1st call in the background if this is how its going to be, you will never see her again. Listen real close.

That she did.

 

[Brini]

Is anybody else starting to get worried about the evidence from the trunk? I'm thinking it would not take very long to determine if any DNA in the trunk belonged to Caylee, and not much more than two seconds to determine if any fluids came from a cadaver as opposed from a living person.......I'm starting to wonder if there IS any evidence from the trunk that will give prosecutors a hand-hold to base charges on.

They have it from the FBI lab, and, according to them, had it triple-checked with other labs. Yeah, I think they have a TON of stuff, and we will all be smacked in the face with it.

Then,. here's the yard and the trunk-- two dogs from two different counties....

My guess is that they have assembled so much forensic evidence that even we, who are used to reading forensic reportage will be thunderstruck.

KC may be a prolific sociopath, but she couldn't plan a trip to the bathroom.

 

[kathyn2]

There is a poll put up on one of the tv station websites today asking if KC should be brought up on murder charges or not. 96% say YES. 4% say no. This is just from what we know and I think LE has alot more proof and a much better case than what we even know about. People have been convicted on alot less. There is no way that reasonable jurors are not going to convict KC. There may be 1 nut on the case that wouldn't convict but if that happened the case would just be retried. Casey is going down for this case. 99.9% of the time the law works just fine and the guilty go to prison where they belong. All the stuff mentioned above about reasonable doubt and some joe blow could have found her car and put a dead caylee in it is just baloney. That isn't reasonable doubt. That is UNREASONABLE doubt.

 

[Brini]

Reasonable doubt.

Bounty Hunter Leonard Padilla has been on every show he can be on all night including Greta. In each of these shows, what could be the "new" defense story had started to blossom via Leonard's casual remarks. The following assumes you know several things about this case thus far before reading further:

1. Who Casey called that wasn't a family member on June 16th (3 friends)
2. Where some of those people may have been or are at the present time (Georgia and Puerto Rico)
3. Which of these people are or were former law enforcement

In nearly every interview Leonard Padilla gave this evening, those pieces of information relate directly to the statements he made about what he believed may have happened and why he thinks Caylee is alive. As Casey's attorney Jose Baez said last night on Greta, the explanation of why Casey did not report Caylee missing for 31 days "would be covered in his opening statement" -- we think Leonard gave mondo hints about what that statement might contain tonight. For example:

• Leonard said that he believed Casey gave her to a "friend" (who isn't the Gonzalez chick Casey named long ago) for a couple of days who didn't bring her back
• He alluded to "Georgia" and "Puerto Rico" as where folks could be who have or have had Caylee
• Jose's co-council Mike Walsh said in an MSNBC interview a couple weeks ago that one of Casey's closest friends "had mental issues"
• Casey doesn't trust law enforcement

The allusion here is that one of the 3 friends would still have Caylee. (In weaving this tale, all defense parties involved would have to completely discount the car and it's contents - which we believe they have done for a while). In a murder or manslaughter defense to cast reasonable doubt, those friends would need to have an alibi for some period of time on June 16th when Caylee went missing. God forbid any of those people babysat Caylee on that day, or even just saw Casey and Caylee together that afternoon of June 16. Start thinking about it, folks. We can see this one coming, and why shouldn't we? Casey's been in jail for a month and had lots of time to create a new drama. This time though, it's going to affect people around her who DO know her.

LP changed ALLLL his opinions about this, after he saw the evidence.

BTW-- LE cleared everyone whom KC called, emailed, or texted. And, the ones whom she implicated don't exist.

 

[Gaia713]

Yes! The "others" would have had to climb the wire fence carrying the body, put it into the trunk unseen. Then, a few days later, do the reverse.

KC would have to explain how se managed to overlook the smell, or why she had to tell several more lies to explain it.

There ARE no others. There never were.

And I don't think there will be any others either.

 

[Brini]

I heard all three 911 calls, and can't believe it. Amazing...nothing surprises me anymore

raying: for Caylee

Edited to add: In the 3rd 911 call Casey says the name of the nanny's, and spells it out for the operator. Her pronunciation is perfect and no mistakes in the spelling of the name either. Let's just say Casey sent Caylee with the nanny ZFG to Mexico. You don't need to fly to Mexico, you can drive there. Has the LE checked Mexico for Caylee?

Of course not. They HAVE the ZFG from Sawgrass. She didn't do it.

They also have too much forensic evidence that Caylee is dead, unfortunately.