Revisit - Did CA/GA cover up 7-16-08

[Woe.be.gone]

For a long time, Casey's lies came so freely, and Cindy seemed to go along with them. George seemed to kind of stay out of it. Then, as they started noticing things and they rec'd notice about the car, Cindy and George could not remain in their denial that the possibilities were dismal about Caylee.

Remember when George said he started to go into detective mode, wanting to follow certain people, and Cindy tried to go to the theme park because Casey had lied to Cindy saying she was going to be there with Casey and another child.

They wanted to believe Casey. But the car, Casey's lies coming more and more to light, and Caylee's non-presence got to be too much. Remember when Cindy said to Casey, (not exact words that I remember, but I'll try) "WHAT have you done??" to Casey.

What have you done? That's quite a statement after knowing your grandchild hasn't been seen for 31 days, you've rec'd all kinds of stories from Casey about why Caylee hasn't been around, and finally, the abandoned stinking car. It was zero hour at that point. At that point, Cindy and George, had to know something terrible had happened and Cindy went to find Casey with the girlfriend of Casey's showing her the way to Anthony L's apartment.

Something had to have been told by Casey once Cindy got her hands on Casey, with Cindy demanding to know the story. Also, prior to all this, that night that Casey and Cindy allegedly had a big fight at home...there seems to be something we don't know that was said and done in that confrontation.

I think all the denial about Casey's behavioral problems came to a halt once Cindy figured out that the police were involved and Casey was a suspect. Couldn't deny that Casey was a mentally disturbed, irresponsible, lying mamma/child at that point. There would be no more smoothing over big issues with big lies, such as "Casey's just been gaining weight, she's not pregnant". Ha. That was a sign of serious problems in the family with nurse Cindy saying that.

Casey never lived up to what her parents expected her to be: a high school graduate, a decent mother to Caylee, and she did not have ambition to go on to college. Instead she lied, lived precariously and put Caylee in danger, stole money, used people and ended up in jail. Mother of the year: in jail.

Huh? I'm confused. I agree with your statement except the part I bolded above. When did the A's stop their denial? Have I missed something? :waitasec:

 

[Woe.be.gone]

I don't think the possibility of CA being involved is that far-fetched since her behavior has cast doubt on everything she says and does in this case. However, the reason I don't buy CA being involved in Caylee's death is that there is (in my opinion) NO WAY Casey would take the wrap for CA. No bleeping way. If CA told Casey that something happened to Caylee and she needed Casey to follow a script, put Caylee's body in the back of Casey's car, let it sit there and decompose for a few days, borrow the neighbor's shovel, then take the body out, duct tape the mouth and put a heart shaped sticker on it, bag it, put it in laundry bags, and dump it at the side of the road along with blankets and balloons from Caylee's bedroom and THEN ditch the car at Amscot, Casey would dial 911 and bury CA so far and fast that she would REALLY end up with the house and cars etc. No way would Casey lie and steal money from her friends just to go along with her mother or father. She did this all on her own. I do go back and forth on the idea that they (CA and GA or even LA) re-disposed of Caylee or helped get rid of the body. Maybe dug it up in the back yard and put it somewhere else.

You make a very good point. The only reason I can't agree 100 percent with your reasoning is that KC is not independent. She has no idea how to survive in the world without CA's support. So, for the same reason she did not take off and run as far away from home as she could get, she could not turn on CA. KC, even though she is over 21, has no real life skills and no idea how to take care of herself out in the world. Even though she rebelled, she still views the family unit as her team.

It strikes me that KC made up stories about all the trips she had been taking to various Florida towns, but she hadn't even wandered more than twenty-five miles from home. How would she live independently once TL or whoever were out of her life? She is a frightened person without survival skills who makes up who she is as she goes along but always with the luxury of having CA and company to fall back on. If CA isn't there, KC has nothing.

IMO - putting my theory out here to ponder if there could be any truth to it.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

I'm not sure when they took the car but I know it wasn't the night of the 911 call. I'm going to try to look that up but if anyone knows maybe they could help us out.

I remember reading in one of the LE interviews of Cindy where she stated that she thought the police had looked at everything they needed to and taken everything they needed so she thought it was okay to wash the pants. I don't have a link, sorry, but I'll try to find it. (we really do need a searchable reference library)

In her recent depo CA stated that she cleaned the car before she returned to work the day they picked it up from the towyard.

iirc LE took the car on the 16th of July (have to double check this). Yuri actually confronted CA about saying to the media that LE had left the car there so she didn't think it was a big deal. Yuri was not happy and said that they retrieved it within 24 hours. CA retorted that she counted Tuesday as day one, and Wednesday as day two (so not within 24 hours but two days). Yep, that's CA for you. :banghead:

 

[Moe]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't CA told to leave work on Friday in order to figure out why the car smelled? Perhaps she knew she would be grilled at work Monday morning so she had to resolve the problem before returning? Maybe that is why she made the 911 call, so she could shake down KC. CA got more than she bargained for.

 

[MissJames]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't CA told to leave work on Friday in order to figure out why the car smelled? Perhaps she knew she would be grilled at work Monday morning so she had to resolve the problem before returning? Maybe that is why she made the 911 call, so she could shake down KC. CA got more than she bargained for.

CA's co-workers have always intrigued me.I hope we hear more from them at trial,or in depositions. I bet they can tell us a lot about CA's motives.

 

[Curious Me]

You make a very good point. The only reason I can't agree 100 percent with your reasoning is that KC is not independent. She has no idea how to survive in the world without CA's support. So, for the same reason she did not take off and run as far away from home as she could get, she could not turn on CA. KC, even though she is over 21, has no real life skills and no idea how to take care of herself out in the world. Even though she rebelled, she still views the family unit as her team.

It strikes me that KC made up stories about all the trips she had been taking to various Florida towns, but she hadn't even wandered more than twenty-five miles from home. How would she live independently once TL or whoever were out of her life? She is a frightened person without survival skills who makes up who she is as she goes along but always with the luxury of having CA and company to fall back on. If CA isn't there, KC has nothing.

IMO - putting my theory out here to ponder if there could be any truth to it.

I agree with woe.be.gone that Casey really wasn't a whole independent person. She didn't even own her own car. She kept going back to the family house to get clothes, food, and even supplies to wrap the remains apparently. She didn't go very far at all! Couldn't even find a way to get gas for her car without stealing Dad's gas cans. Her family resources were always tapped in times of trouble. Yeah, maybe she grumbled a lot to her friends, but Casey did see her family as HER team.

Narcissists tend to see people as objects for their use though, and can discard people easily once they don't need them, and move on to other people. I see Casey as being a true narcissist without much actual emotional feeling. You can be tight bfs with a narcissist as long as you don't stop giving, or believing them.

I think Casey was actually congratulating herself that she was making this new life on her own at TonE's and she did, in fact, feel happier, like she had accomplished something towards her goal to have her own life. She knew if/when Cindy ever found out what happened to Caylee that the gig at home would be most likely over. Casey seemed to have finally made a decision to break free of Cindy, and it started by getting rid of Caylee.

 

[akashana]

I know I'm probably going to get slammed for this, but I don't believe that Cindy or George knew at the time they got the car back that Caylee had actually died. I made the mistake one time of missing a package of chicken breasts in the trunk when I put up groceries once. It was summertime. It was horrible, and it lasted a really long time no matter what I used to clean it up with. I don't think I could make that quantum leap from just the smell of decomp that my daughter had murdered her baby and that was the odor source. I don't think I could wrap my head around that right away. I would be led kicking and screaming to it eventually, but if I got my car back reeking, I'd probably air it out and begin cleaning it up just as Cindy did also. No one would wsant to drive it or buy it like that, and I would want to mitigate the damage as much and as soon as possible, just as if I got it back splattered with mud I would want to hose it off immediately. Just kinda a pride of ownership thing, you know? And if shoes or pants inside the car stunk to high heaven, I'd give 'em a wash.

I don't think my mind would go immediately to that was my dead grandchild I smelled. That is so horrible to contemplate, it would definitely take me awhile to even go there in my mind. So I just can't fault the As actions in that particular scenario. I also think that early on they developed a sort of siege mentality, probably under the influence of KC, the "us against them" mindset that set the tone for their future dealings with LE, the public and the media. Not excusing it, but perhaps explaining it.

 

[Leila]

Whatever really did happen must be worth covering up. It's no simple accident that Caylee died. I know the Ants are a prideful bunch, but if it was an accident that CA knew about she'd have spilled the beans to save Casey. No, I think what the cover-up is was Casey did, in fact, murder Caylee. There was a big fight, and Cindy wants to keep that quiet too because it lends a rage motive to Casey killing Caylee, but it would only prove more so that Casey did do it.

I think the fight on the evening of June 15, 2008 was the catalyst for Caylee's death. Cindy knows that and that's why she denies it happened. It provides the motive for Casey murdering Caylee. I think Caylee was killed in a rage, precipitated by that fight, and was revenge against Cindy, taking Caylee away from Cindy permanently.

Casey may have been planning to kill Caylee, and did Internet searches to find a method of killing her, but had not finalized any plans yet. The fight pushed Casey over the edge and she murdered Caylee in a rage.

 

[Leila]

I think CA originally saw a way to get what SHE wanted. She didn't want her daughter going to prison for killing someone, necessarily (thus the *possible* car cleanup, etc) but she DID think she could get custody of Caylee by threatening KC with calling the cops. She thought KC would hand her over because now she had something concrete on her - SOME kind of crime happened in the car! But when KC still didn't produce Caylee, maybe she figured that a mom in prison would still get her custody of Caylee, so she called 911 to threaten her with the stealing the car and money stuff, and figured that the police would be able to make KC produce Caylee. KC didn't want Cindy to have her and that was the fight on Father's Day before they left.

First call:
http://www.docstoc.com/docs/5711171/Casey-Anthony-Cindy-Anthony-First-911-July-15-2008

Then it all starts to come out. However KC came up with the kidnapping story, Cindy FREAKS OUT now. Where is Caylee? What do you mean she's been missing for a month? (Maybe in her head she first doesn't connect the car smell with *Caylee* - who knows what situations went through her head re: drugs, etc that KC *might have* been wrapped up in - see multiple threads on this very board about such possibilities.)

2nd 911 call
http://www.docstoc.com/docs/5711170/Casey-Anthony-Cindy-Anthony-Second-911-July-15-2008

I have no idea what happened after that but I think that's where CA was in her head when she made the initial 911 call. Sure of herself, and so glad that now she had something to gain custody of Caylee with...

You've brought up some good points. Way back when we first learned of the theft of the gas cans from the Anthony's shed, with a police report dated June 24, 2008, I thought that George and Cindy were compiling documentation against Casey for a custody battle.

In regards to the fight between Cindy and Casey on the evening of June 15th, I think Cindy likely raised the issues of Casey's thefts of money from herself and Casey's grandparents, along with accusations of Casey's irresponsibility in taking care of Caylee.

I think George and Cindy were building a case against Casey to present to a judge in seeking custody of Caylee.

 

[Pattymarie]

CA's co-workers have always intrigued me.I hope we hear more from them at trial,or in depositions. I bet they can tell us a lot about CA's motives.

I have always wondered why we have not seen more sworn statements from these co-workers. In the entirety of this case, I have noticed how few people seem to really know the A's...lack of relatives, friends, neighbors, co-workers giving any kind of character testimony.

 

[Snaz]

I think the fight on the evening of June 15, 2008 was the catalyst for Caylee's death. Cindy knows that and that's why she denies it happened. It provides the motive for Casey murdering Caylee. I think Caylee was killed in a rage, precipitated by that fight, and was revenge against Cindy, taking Caylee away from Cindy permanently.

Casey may have been planning to kill Caylee, and did Internet searches to find a method of killing her, but had not finalized any plans yet. The fight pushed Casey over the edge and she murdered Caylee in a rage.

Leila, this is exactly what I think happened. I agree that KC had most likely planned to kill Caylee, but that fight with CA is what pushed her into doing it, probably before she was actually ready to do it.

 

[Curious Me]

Sorry, for a brief moment I need to go off thread alittle. Just thinking it was a very strange decision for Casey to make to break into the shed with TonE just to get some gas cans to put gas in her car. Wonder why TonE didn't just give her a few bucks for gas. Wonder why she had to get in that shed other than gas cans.


Also seems like Casey was tauting Cindy all month long by sneaking into the house but never when Cindy was around, and calling Cindy stringing her along about seeing Caylee soon. It has a mean spitefulness to it. The fight could have been the catalyst for Caylee's death, and in Casey's mind it was all CA fault. She tormented her mother promising, "She'll be home by her birthday." Did Cindy know the truth then?

 

[Steely Dan]

I know I'm probably going to get slammed for this, but I don't believe that Cindy or George knew at the time they got the car back that Caylee had actually died. I made the mistake one time of missing a package of chicken breasts in the trunk when I put up groceries once. It was summertime. It was horrible, and it lasted a really long time no matter what I used to clean it up with. I don't think I could make that quantum leap from just the smell of decomp that my daughter had murdered her baby and that was the odor source. I don't think I could wrap my head around that right away. I would be led kicking and screaming to it eventually, but if I got my car back reeking, I'd probably air it out and begin cleaning it up just as Cindy did also. No one would wsant to drive it or buy it like that, and I would want to mitigate the damage as much and as soon as possible, just as if I got it back splattered with mud I would want to hose it off immediately. Just kinda a pride of ownership thing, you know? And if shoes or pants inside the car stunk to high heaven, I'd give 'em a wash.

I don't think my mind would go immediately to that was my dead grandchild I smelled. That is so horrible to contemplate, it would definitely take me awhile to even go there in my mind. So I just can't fault the As actions in that particular scenario. I also think that early on they developed a sort of siege mentality, probably under the influence of KC, the "us against them" mindset that set the tone for their future dealings with LE, the public and the media. Not excusing it, but perhaps explaining it.

I agree, why would they even make a phone call if they knew she was dead? If they wanted to cover it up at that point they'd have just washed up everything and gone on helping Casey come up with a reasonable story that wouldn't have to have been reported right away.

Saying she smelled a "Damned dead body" really hurts Casey's case and I have to believe she'd know that. Look at how much back pedaling has been done about that comment.

 

[wonders]

I know I'm probably going to get slammed for this, but I don't believe that Cindy or George knew at the time they got the car back that Caylee had actually died. I made the mistake one time of missing a package of chicken breasts in the trunk when I put up groceries once. It was summertime. It was horrible, and it lasted a really long time no matter what I used to clean it up with. I don't think I could make that quantum leap from just the smell of decomp that my daughter had murdered her baby and that was the odor source. I don't think I could wrap my head around that right away. I would be led kicking and screaming to it eventually, but if I got my car back reeking, I'd probably air it out and begin cleaning it up just as Cindy did also. No one would wsant to drive it or buy it like that, and I would want to mitigate the damage as much and as soon as possible, just as if I got it back splattered with mud I would want to hose it off immediately. Just kinda a pride of ownership thing, you know? And if shoes or pants inside the car stunk to high heaven, I'd give 'em a wash.

I don't think my mind would go immediately to that was my dead grandchild I smelled. That is so horrible to contemplate, it would definitely take me awhile to even go there in my mind. So I just can't fault the As actions in that particular scenario. I also think that early on they developed a sort of siege mentality, probably under the influence of KC, the "us against them" mindset that set the tone for their future dealings with LE, the public and the media. Not excusing it, but perhaps explaining it.

akashana,

I really respect what you are saying. Here's my but though hope you don't mind.
When the A's are used to seeing Caylee every day and then KC leaves with her and comes up with excuses as to why CA can't see her through out the 31 days that she is gone from their house (Red Flag) then GA goes and gets the car and is first affraid to open the trunk and second drives home doing everything he can to keep himself from smelling that oder that he said himself was unmistakeable (Red Flag) then CA smells the oder too who tells 911 later that pm that the damn car smells like a dead body had been in it ( Red Flag). Well I just can't see how they wouldn't know that Caylee was gone. CA did tell LA I beleive it was that KC was in trouble that same day. IDK maybe I am crazy but I think a persons gut would tell them KWIM? Also from all the things I have learned here on WS human decomp has no comparision.
I really wish we knew for sure how this whole murder of Caylee came about and the truth of the aftermath. I am wondering if KC spilled her guts to CA after the 3rd 911 call. I really believe that CA's words in the 3rd call were excited utterance's and that may be the only truth we ever hear from the A's.

 

[ziggy]

The A's knew KC was being spiteful and keeping Caylee away from them. SOMETHING had to have happened to motivate KC to do this, hence the fight. Cindy knew that KC was using Caylee to hurt them. What is the real reason KC was doing this?

When they found the car, I think they were speculating that KC was in over her head with some bad people (because it couldn't be her fault). George did say he hoped that smell didn't mean a dead KC or Caylee. When the trunk was opened and his fears were somewhat put to rest, I think he went into "what the ef has she been up to and what kind of trouble is she in - who did she let borrow this car"? Cindy thought the same thing.

I think CA just thought KC was a pig and decided to try and clean the car. I don't think her mind would LET her go there - so she made herself busy by cleaning and going back to work. For some that is definitely a distraction technique to avoid dealing with something unpleasant.

When they found KC and she would not give them information about Caylee, Cindy got FED UP - and for once she did something she's never done and that was make good on a threat and call the police in an attempt to get KC to cooperate. When she was told that Caylee had been kidnapped, it all came rushing in and she couldn't control it - she called the police and this time uttered her fears because after all, she'd just found out that the baby had been kidnapped and the smell in the car sent chills through her.

In the time it took for LE to arrive, KC had come in fast with the "I can't tell you anything else because it's too dangerous" plan C, which I think CA bought. GA did not and I'm sure he and LA were just in SHUT UP mode because CA was calling the shots with KC as usual.

I think the cover up began when KC was bonded out. Seriously, I think CA realized then that there was no danger, no nanny, and that KC was full of
$4it and then she realized she'd gone too far already believing in her and that Caylee was really gone and protecting KC is what she had always done and it was what she was prepared to do.

I think this happened later than most.

 

[akashana]

akashana,

I really respect what you are saying. Here's my but though hope you don't mind.
When the A's are used to seeing Caylee every day and then KC leaves with her and comes up with excuses as to why CA can't see her through out the 31 days that she is gone from their house (Red Flag) then GA goes and gets the car and is first affraid to open the trunk and second drives home doing everything he can to keep himself from smelling that oder that he said himself was unmistakeable (Red Flag) then CA smells the oder too who tells 911 later that pm that the damn car smells like a dead body had been in it ( Red Flag). Well I just can't see how they wouldn't know that Caylee was gone. CA did tell LA I beleive it was that KC was in trouble that same day. IDK maybe I am crazy but I think a persons gut would tell them KWIM? Also from all the things I have learned here on WS human decomp has no comparision.
I really wish we knew for sure how this whole murder of Caylee came about and the truth of the aftermath. I am wondering if KC spilled her guts to CA after the 3rd 911 call. I really believe that CA's words in the 3rd call were excited utterance's and that may be the only truth we ever hear from the A's.

I certainly don't mind! That's the fun part of WS, sharing and comparing views, getting a chance to see how others develop their POVs, how they think, etc. I learn a lot on WS!

I understand your points, but I believe that CA thought KC was keeping the baby from her out of spite, that whatever transpired the night of the infamous fight had caused KC to inflict the punishment of not seeing Caylee for an extended period to show CA who was in the catbird seat regarding the child. I've seen divorcing spouses do the same with children, using them as pawns to score points against their exes. Hateful and hurtful, but it happens all the time. And I think Cindy thought this was but another manifestation of it. KC was really giving her the business, making her think she'd see her at Disney, be home this day or that, getting her hopes up only to dash them. Even if she had gone to the cops earlier, she had no legal say in the matter. KC was the mom, and if she chose to stay elsewhere with Caylee and always had a story for their whereabouts, I don't see the cops getting involved. I've heard that too, about the decomp odor, but I still think that the mind would protect the heart from that cruel knowledge as long as possible, coming up with seemingly plausible alternatives. The horror of it all would be just too much to accept I think. But this is a very unusual family who time and again has not reacted the way others perceive that they should, so who really knows? It's probably ne ver going to be fully revealed just how things went down, who knew what when, because these people don't like dealing with truth.

 

[Imbackon]

GEORGE NEVER WORRiED THAT CASEY WAS MAYBE THE DEAD PERSON IN THE TRUNK.
It infuriates me that his statement is never questioned.

After all, didn't Cindy talked to KC after the car was towed on the 27th (every day even) and whoever was dead in the trunk had to have been in there before it was towed.

The only one missing was Caylee.

That being said, the A's HAD TO HAVE KNOWN THERE WAS AN EXTREMELY STRONG POSSIBILITY that Caylee was dead by the time:

. KC was found but no Caylee
. All the excuses for not producing Caylee were lame
. Her lies to LE and and Nanny apt being empty all came to light.

When KC was willing to go to Jail rather than produce Caylee, is when they knew.
The date was July 16th. Everything from then on is backpedaling.

 

[genie]

I don't think CA was in cover up mode at that time. I think she was genuinely scared, and knew KC did something to Caylee. But after her initial moment of truth, she realized if she didn't start the cover up, she would lose both her granddaughter and her daughter. But maybe if she started to bury her head in the sand she could hold on to her daughter and the extremely small chance that Caylee was still alive.

 

[ExpectingUnicorns]

I don't think CA was in cover up mode at that time. I think she was genuinely scared, and knew KC did something to Caylee. But after her initial moment of truth, she realized if she didn't start the cover up, she would lose both her granddaughter and her daughter. But maybe if she started to bury her head in the sand she could hold on to her daughter and the extremely small chance that Caylee was still alive.

I'm sorry; I didn't understand. When do you think it was her initial moment of truth?

 

[Curious Me]

That's why I keep questioning why Cindy did not tear TonE's place apart looking for Caylee when she went to drag Casey out of her BF's. Cindy did not look in every room for Caylee, and she didn't ask TonE specifically when he'd last seen Caylee. I would be frantic to find Caylee at that point, after not even talking to the little girl for a whole month and the car smelled like death. Either Cindy really did believe Caylee could be at a nanny's, or was she just on in strong denial and delayed reaction If it were me, I know I would have been checking out closets and gone through TonE's whole house sobbing Caylee's name. We aren't talking a mild odor or a few days missing.