SC - Heather Elvis, 20, Myrtle Beach, 18 Dec 2013 #27***ARREST**

[LittleRose]

I don't think the most fervent DSM adherent could/would identify what is going on with TM based on her mug shot. And I'm not sure what would constitute "proper diagnosis and treatment", or that we can say either would have stopped these two from murdering Heather.



But I do think if a lawyer thought a photograph of TM could convince a judge that TM was experiencing a 'break', TM would have been placed in a psych facility by now, not a jail.



I can well imagine that if the evidence against these two is sufficiently damning, the attorneys, or perhaps one of them, will come up with a mental illness defense. And TM and SM will enjoy a similar protracted legal circus that the Aurora shooter now enjoys, while the victims are further victimized.

Mental health experts do observe a patient's physical presentation when making a diagnosis (along with other factors). This isn't Cardiology. No blood tests or x-rays will detect psychosis.

Proper diagnosis and treatment would have prevented this tragedy, especially if TM was psychotic/delusional, decompensating, and induced or influenced a similar state in SM. They were under extreme stress. They were isolated. The had poor reality testing. This happens to vulnerable people. This is only a theory, but it explains how a middle-aged couple with three kids, who seemingly coped sufficiently well during most of their life, killed a 20 year old girl and convinced themselves they could get away with it. It's not rational thinking. If TM was the primary in the Folie a Deux, she could have been hospitalized or put on anti-psychotics. SM would probably have gotten better on his own if away from her or if she was getting better on medication.

Many people with psychosis spend loads of time in prison with little or no psychiatric treatment. I had a case where a physician had a psychotic break and attacked his family, believing them to be "evil". (Thankfully, nobody was seriously injured). Despite having one of the most talented criminal defense attorneys in Dallas, he spent a year in jail before he was given the proper bipolar diagnosis and prescribed a mood stabilizer. He wasn't transferred to a psych facility.

I feel terrible for Heather and her family. However, I don't think TM and SM are psychopaths. If mental illness played a role in the crime, by all means, that issue, along with the other evidence in the case, should go before the jury.



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[Lovejac]

The children are OFF LIMITS. If you don't understand what that means, then PM a mod and ask. Imamaze is your first contact point, but if she is not online PM any mod and we will get an answer for you.

The children are OFF LIMITS.

Salem

Sorry, Salem, :seeya: I had a lapse in judgement. It won't happen again, pinky promise :loveyou:

 

[cujenn81]

This is an old article, but I never saw it

http://www.myhorrynews.com/news/crime/article_182d62c8-935d-11e3-9b05-001a4bcf6878.html

At least four harassment complaints have been filed by an Horry County household since Dec. 22.
The complaints were filed by the household of Sidney Moorer, who according to police records, had a past relationship history with Heather Elvis.
The harassment complaints state that the Moorer household has been harassed by various individuals. Those reports were filed between Dec. 22 and Jan. 17.

I'm confused about the number 4. 1 would be when SM said they were shot at, 2 would be when SM said two men in a truck flashed a shotgun at him, I was thinking 3 would be when the search party called LE after being threatened with a stick by TM dad but what is the 4th one???

Any thoughts?

I'm at a loss too. And I don't even think 1&2 would be included in those 4 because I'm pretty sure they both occurred after Jan. 17. I know for a fact the one that occurred when Sidney was alone at TGIF was on the 20th of February between 1-2 am... the reason I remember the date is because that's my dad's birthday (I was telling him about it over dinner because I live right down the road from there) & I know it happened right before they were arrested.


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[sarabean]

The children are OFF LIMITS. If you don't understand what that means, then PM a mod and ask. Imamaze is your first contact point, but if she is not online PM any mod and we will get an answer for you.

The children are OFF LIMITS.

Salem

Oy, I'm sorry. I didn't even THINK about my question until I saw this. Momentarily lapse of judgement. I will pull my head out!

 

[LittleRose]

According to a forensic psychiatrist I've worked with and trust, a psychotic break, whether induced by stress or the wrong medication, is akin to involuntary intoxication. There isn't the requisite mens rea/guilty mind/criminal fault for criminal liability under our justice system.

I don't know if that's what happened in this case, but I suspect it may have played a role.


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[cujenn81]

I don't think the most fervent DSM adherent could/would identify what is going on with TM based on her mug shot. And I'm not sure what would constitute "proper diagnosis and treatment", or that we can say either would have stopped these two from murdering Heather.



But I do think if a lawyer thought a photograph of TM could convince a judge that TM was experiencing a 'break', TM would have been placed in a psych facility by now, not a jail.



I can well imagine that if the evidence against these two is sufficiently damning, the attorneys, or perhaps one of them, will come up with a mental illness defense. And TM and SM will enjoy a similar protracted legal circus that the Aurora shooter now enjoys, while the victims are further victimized.

This. Thank you. The "thanks" button didn't do it justice.


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[cujenn81]

Thanks. I remember you did. I did too, in the first or second thread, but I don't understand the explanation of it being normal. How is it normal for a person working for a different major company to use that email address for contact regarding a travel business that isn't even theirs?



Also, when did Tammy start Tammy's Magical Vacations and Tammy's Magical Travel? Are they two separate entities or was there a name change? She used both titles. The website for her http://tammysmagicalvacations.com/ is down.

I think the web page is hosted thru a company that keeps your personal info private & the contact info is for someone who works with the hosting company? Maybe? I could be WAY off.


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[rob]

I keep wondering if Tammy can get away with a temporary insanity defense. I wonder if they'll try to go that route, especially if Sidney was telling her one thing while doing another all along.

If having a lying husband or (wife) can make you crazy enough to get away with murder, we going a have a lot of killing going on.
MOO

 

[cujenn81]

According to a forensic psychiatrist I've worked with and trust, a psychotic break, whether induced by stress or the wrong medication, is akin to involuntary intoxication. There isn't the requisite mens rea/guilty mind/criminal fault for criminal liability under our justice system.

I don't know if that's what happened in this case, but I suspect it may have played a role.


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Coming from someone who has a close family member that suffers from bipolar disorder and has unfortunately seen her share of psychotic breaks, I believe it's highly unlikely TM or SM was suffering from a psychotic break.

For starters, psychotic breaks don't just occur out of thin air... regardless of the trigger, signs of unstableness are present for a significant amount of time prior to a psychotic break. And it would be difficult for someone to lose all sense of reality for a period of three months without finding themselves in jail, in a hospital, or deceased. People who experience psychotic breaks don't just snap back into reality either. It's a LONG process of finding the perfect balance of mood stabilizers and months of healing. His/her thought processes would be distorted, FB posts would be a jumbled up mess that no one could understand. In other words, it would be blatantly obvious.

IMO


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[jillycat]

Mental health experts do observe a patient's physical presentation when making a diagnosis (along with other factors). This isn't Cardiology. No blood tests or x-rays will detect psychosis.

That's my point.

Proper diagnosis and treatment would have prevented this tragedy, especially if TM was psychotic/delusional, decompensating, and induced or influenced a similar state in SM. They were under extreme stress. They were isolated. The had poor reality testing. This happens to vulnerable people. This is only a theory, but it explains how a middle-aged couple with three kids, who seemingly coped sufficiently well during most of their life, killed a 20 year old girl and convinced themselves they could get away with it. It's not rational thinking. If TM was the primary in the Folie a Deux, she could have been hospitalized or put on anti-psychotics. SM would probably have gotten better on his own if away from her or if she was getting better on medication.

In my view, it's a stretch to say that psychotropics would have prevented a homicide, as if there is a known illness and a corresponding 'treatment'.

Many people with psychosis spend loads of time in prison with little or no psychiatric treatment. I had a case where a physician had a psychotic break and attacked his family, believing them to be "evil". (Thankfully, nobody was seriously injured). Despite having one of the most talented criminal defense attorneys in Dallas, he spent a year in jail before he was given the proper bipolar diagnosis and prescribed a mood stabilizer. He wasn't transferred to a psych facility.

I feel terrible for Heather and her family. However, I don't think TM and SM are psychopaths. If mental illness played a role in the crime, by all means, that issue, along with the other evidence in the case, should go before the jury.

My concern about the idea of "proper diagnosis and treatment" is that it leads to situations like the Loughner case where a killer is given a psychiatric label, then sent to be forcibly medicated for psychiatric 'restoration' so he can stand trial...for the crime he committed while sick...

And in that case the court said no, you really can't do that just because of a label and a claim of "dangerousness".

You see where I'm headed with this.

So, I think your scenario would have to rely on TM agreeing she was 'sick' and needed a hospital and medication, or, someone would have had to prove she was so dangerous it warranted involuntary hospitalization and forced medicating. I think this is a very slippery slope generally, and in the case of TM, we have no idea if her behavior would have met a criteria that even the most psych system-friendly court would want.

No disrespect intended toward member of the psychiatric profession. But a lot of people are called sick when they're simply criminals. And a lot of people who have committed no crime are said to be mentally ill and in need of 'care' when they pose no threat to anyone. I have a hard time viewing any of this as "proper".

 

[Jersey*Girl]

I think the web page is hosted thru a company that keeps your personal info private & the contact info is for someone who works with the hosting company? Maybe? I could be WAY off.

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See, that's the thing... The email supplied is for a totally different corporation.

 

[LittleRose]

Coming from someone who has a close family member that suffers from bipolar disorder and has unfortunately seen her share of psychotic breaks, I believe it's highly unlikely TM or SM was suffering from a psychotic break.

For starters, psychotic breaks don't just occur out of thin air... regardless of the trigger, signs of unstableness are present for a significant amount of time prior to a psychotic break. And it would be difficult for someone to lose all sense of reality for a period of three months without finding themselves in jail, in a hospital, or deceased. People who experience psychotic breaks don't just snap back into reality either. It's a LONG process of finding the perfect balance of mood stabilizers and months of healing. His/her thought processes would be distorted, FB posts would be a jumbled up mess that no one could understand. In other words, it would be blatantly obvious.

IMO


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Borderlines can have brief psychotic episodes.

I don't know if TM was bipolar or borderline. I'd, however, be surprised if some form of mental illnesses didn't play a role in this case.


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[jillycat]

Borderlines can have brief psychotic episodes.

I don't know if TM was bipolar or borderline. I'd, however, be surprised if some form of mental illnesses didn't play a role in this case.


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Again, this is, IMO, a leap, and the two diagnostic terms above are not substantiated in any way.

'Mental illness' is an awfully broad term and I hate to see it used in a criminal case before there's a reason to believe that the accused are sick in any true sense of the word.

And, not everyone with these DSM labels are posing threats to other people or killing them.

 

[LittleRose]

That's my point.







In my view, it's a stretch to say that psychotropics would have prevented a homicide, as if there is a known illness and a corresponding 'treatment'.







My concern about the idea of "proper diagnosis and treatment" is that it leads to situations like the Loughner case where a killer is given a psychiatric label, then sent to be forcibly medicated for psychiatric 'restoration' so he can stand trial...for the crime he committed while sick...



And in that case the court said no, you really can't do that just because of a label and a claim of "dangerousness".



You see where I'm headed with this.



So, I think your scenario would have to rely on TM agreeing she was 'sick' and needed a hospital and medication, or, someone would have had to prove she was so dangerous it warranted involuntary hospitalization and forced medicating. I think this is a very slippery slope generally, and in the case of TM, we have no idea if her behavior would have met a criteria that even the most psych system-friendly court would want.



No disrespect intended toward member of the psychiatric profession. But a lot of people are called sick when they're simply criminals. And a lot of people who have committed no crime are said to be mentally ill and in need of 'care' when they pose no threat to anyone. I have a hard time viewing any of this as "proper".

I don't think the issue is black or white, sick vs criminals. Our prisons are jam-packed with mentally ill and sometimes psychotic people. Empathy lies on a continuum. Sometimes, biological (brain) states like psychosis impair a person's ability to calm themselves and think rationally, even if they're otherwise empathetic.

I don't know if that's the case here, but I'm interested to see if the issue is explored.





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[cujenn81]

See, that's the thing... The email supplied is for a totally different corporation.

Hmm... I'm at a complete loss then... LOL


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[LittleRose]

Again, this is, IMO, a leap, and the two diagnostic terms above are not substantiated in any way.



'Mental illness' is an awfully broad term and I hate to see it used in a criminal case before there's a reason to believe that the accused are sick in any true sense of the word.



And, not everyone with these DSM labels are posing threats to other people or killing them.

Most borderlines are victims, rather than perpetrators of a crime.

It's interesting how someone espousing a mental illness component to the case is verbally tarred and feathered, but it's perfectly acceptable to describe these people in terms like, "evil...dirty...lazy...pigs", even though those claims are "unsubstantiated" as well.

Why is that?


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[eileenhawkeye]

I think some of things the defense will bring up are:

-Perhaps both TM and SM's lawyers will say the other person did the killing, that their client did not now it was going to happen
-TM's lawyer might bring up her disabled foot
-Social media = Show posts online to say there was a mob who put pressure on LE to arrest them
-Bring up the arrests of the 2 people for interfering in the case. Did they plant evidence?
-Also bring up the tip tent, were tips received that were not sent to LE b/c they didn't point to the M's?

It's a good thing they don't have a dream team.

 

[jillycat]

I don't think the issue is black or white, sick vs criminals. Our prisons are jam-packed with mentally ill and sometimes psychotic people. Empathy lies on a continuum. Sometimes, biological (brain) states like psychosis impair a person's ability to calm themselves and think rationally, even if they're otherwise empathetic.

I don't know if that's the case here, but I'm interested to see if the issue is explored.





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I don't think the issue is black and white either, which is why I'm so hesitant to view a mug shot or filthy house as diagnostic of a shared psychosis or psychotic break. My perspective on the vast terrain of diagnostic codes in the DSM is that if almost anyone and everyone has a disorder, a good deal of time is wasted that could be better spent on those whose suffering is experienced on the most extreme points on the continuum.

I also believe the attorney for TM would be requesting a hospital evaluation if TM had a psychotic break, because she would continue to express behavior that's consistent with such a state after her arrest.

I'm sure the attorneys will leave no stone unturned with respect to examining motive and state of mind once the discovery is complete, and that may well include the mental illness direction.

 

[LookingForClues]

I'm at a loss too. And I don't even think 1&2 would be included in those 4 because I'm pretty sure they both occurred after Jan. 17. I know for a fact the one that occurred when Sidney was alone at TGIF was on the 20th of February between 1-2 am... the reason I remember the date is because that's my dad's birthday (I was telling him about it over dinner because I live right down the road from there) & I know it happened right before they were arrested.

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Bringing my old post forward because I think it got lost in the shuffle of the past few pages. For clarity's sake for anyone just popping in now, the question we are addressing was originally posted by Lovejac this morning (post #442), trying to figure out what 4 harassment complaints were filed by the Ms against others between Dec. 22 and Jan. 17.

Here's an article that discusses those four harassment complaints, as well as the arrest of TE's friends for obstruction:

Four harassment complaints filed since Heather Elvis reported missing

Tensions are running high as the search continues for Heather Elvis, who disappeared some time on Dec. 18.

In addition to charging two men with obstructing justice in connection with the missing person’s case, Horry County police have fielded at least four harassment complaints from the home of a man who police records state had a relationship history with Elvis.

In each of the harassment complaints, residents of the man’s Horry County home reported that they’ve been harassed on social media or in person near their property. No arrests have been made in connection with any of the harassment complaints.

Please read more at the link, the story is quite detailed...
http://www.myhorrynews.com/news/crime/article_9e6c8c96-8cec-11e3-ab97-001a4bcf6878.html

In addition, my posts #446 and #451 also address this issue, if anyone is interested.

I hope I haven't caused more confusion by trying to answer cujenn's question!

 

[Sparky]

See, that's the thing... The email supplied is for a totally different corporation.

Hey JG :seeya:

The person JS on the info you posted lives in TN and is/was a friend of Tammy's on her FB. HTH