Sentencing and beyond- Jodi Arias General Discussion #2

[RickshawFan]

I don't really agree that the media coverage was so pervasive that Jodi could not get a fair trial. There are so many different options nowadays for news. Not everyone watches HLN. The Internet is filled with thousands of subgroups that have their own niches. I can think of other cases that were much more unavoidable and the media coverage seemed more prominent.

Since they were able to seat a jury after the guilt phase (i.e. for the penalty phase) with all that publicity, evidently there are many people who were not tuned in to the Jodi stuff. It's only because she thinks she's the center of the universe that she's wanting to claim there was sooooooo much media that it couldn't not have hurt her case. Poor thing, she had too much attention because she's such a special snowflake and it couldn't but have been damaging. Because that kind of media is always damaging and can invariably cause you to be disbelieved and convicted.

There have been other trials with convictions and plenty of media attention, e.g. the two Scott Petersons

 

[geevee]

To Geevee and all of the planted- photos believers:

Y'all are beginning to convince me they didn't have sex that day. I just don't understand enough about cameras and memory sticks and unallocated memory and the like to work my way through what was and wasn't possible for her to BELIEVE she could do, even if she was mistaken, and what was and wasn't possible for LE to uncover.

Here is a good example of metadata that every digital picture has embedded in the picture file:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/27308599@N07/2547017779/

Click on the 'Show EXIF' under the pic for all of the details, you can see what kind of camera took the pic, the date and time, the camera settings, what software prgram opened it and possibly edited it, etc. If we had this info for any of the nudes we'd know when they were taken and by what camera, much of our mystery would be solved. But, this info may not be available even to LE as according to testimony only the thumbnail files were retrievable since the pics had been deleted and the files partially overwritten by other pictures taken after their deletion, and EnCase generated the timestamp from info on the memory stick (not the pic files). That's also why they're blurry, not because she took pics of pics but because thumbnails are small and making them larger expands the pixels, blurrying them.

Hope I haven't confused you further, Hope.

 

[franquerolane]

I don't really agree that the media coverage was so pervasive that Jodi could not get a fair trial. There are so many different options nowadays for news. Not everyone watches HLN. The Internet is filled with thousands of subgroups that have their own niches. I can think of other cases that were much more unavoidable and the media coverage seemed more prominent.

If you go back to the OJ trial, almost every station in this country carried that trial. JA was no comparison.

 

[minor4th]

To Geevee and all of the planted- photos believers:

Y'all are beginning to convince me they didn't have sex that day. I just don't understand enough about cameras and memory sticks and unallocated memory and the like to work my way through what was and wasn't possible for her to BELIEVE she could do, even if she was mistaken, and what was and wasn't possible for LE to uncover.

Noooo. Not you too!! There is no way they didn't have sex that day and really no reason to believe they wouldn't or didn't. Travis had sex with her until she moved and then had phone sex with her - those time and date stamps on the photos are put on there by the InCase software, extracted from exif data stored within the photo itself. There's no way Jodi could have faked that.

 

[minor4th]

Monday, August 3, 2015
Jodi moves from her bed to the wall-mounted steel stool 6 feet away. She decides she likes it better there, and chooses to stay. 15 minutes later her butt hurts, so she returns to the bed.

Priceless!

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

Thanks to Jan!!!!!! This is from Detective Flores' interrogation of the killer.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...PTS-of-the-Interrogation-Videos-of-Jodi-Arias



26:59
JA: So they were going to have a civil wedding on a beach in Oregon and they did that the following weekend. She told me that on a Monday or Tuesday. It was the beginning of the week. She said the reason I’m telling you that is because I’m getting married this weekend and I have to go to town a few days ahead of Scott, you know, make arrangements, and now that he’s married man we don’t feel that it’s right that you were here in the house. She was like, I don’t want to inconvenience you but is there anyway you can stay with someone else or just find another place? At the time I was waiting on a house in Gilbert,
because I already knew they were getting married so I was kinda’ looking anyway, and there was a great girl named Brenda, and she was waiting on her keys for the mortgage to go through and it was great ward and it was a great house and there was planning (unintelligible) construction and all of that. It was really nice ummm but she didn’t get her keys for months and months. I think she’s in the house now but I don’t know I haven’t talked to her. So I scrambled. I went to the institute. I wrote down a bunch of phone numbers. I called them all. I got voice mails. One girl that answered, her name was Tiffany, and she knew Travis, and she was at his services in Arizona, and umm…as well…and we’ve just remained friends, sort of, like on MySpace and Facebook and that kind of thing and she said, Hey, sorry that’s an updated posting I forgot to take it down. Go to this website, so LDS Housing.net, I went there. I made three phone calls for the places that were within my price range. I didn’t think to look where they were. Umm…the one girl that called me back her name was Shannon Derricott. She said here’s my place, here’s the directions go ahead and go out and come see the house, it’s available, so we did.

28:29
DF: Go ahead

28:30
JA: Do you have to get that?

28:30
DF: No

28:31
JA: Okay. Umm, so I moved out there, and when Travis found out it was so close to him he freaked out about it, and, I made sure to check that it wasn’t, that … that we wouldn’t be in the same ward, and it was within his ward boundaries but it was also within another singles ward boundaries so of course I’m going to go to the other one because it would just be kind of weird. I mean…I didn’t know about him and Lisa, at first...

Hmmm, I wondered about how come Jodi was seen stalking and take pictures of Travis as he did the chicken dance, if they weren't at different wards?

 

[Hope4More]

Here is a good example of metadata that every digital picture has embedded in the picture file:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/27308599@N07/2547017779/

Click on the 'Show EXIF' under the pic for all of the details, you can see what kind of camera took the pic, the date and time, the camera settings, what software prgram opened it and possibly edited it, etc. If we had this info for any of the nudes we'd know when they were taken and by what camera, much of our mystery would be solved. But, this info may not be available even to LE as according to testimony only the thumbnail files were retrievable since the pics had been deleted and the files partially overwritten by other pictures taken after their deletion, and EnCase generated the timestamp from info on the memory stick (not the pic files). That's also why they're blurry, not because she took pics of pics but because thumbnails are small and making them larger expands the pixels, blurrying them.

Hope I haven't confused you further, Hope.

I'm trying to follow the bouncing ball. Key point seems to be only thumbnails exist because pics were deleted and THEN other pics were taken?

How does that fit the scenario of planting the pics? The.only photos taken would have been the shower pics, and she would have already deleted the pics she wanted to plant?

I'm missing something because that doesn't seem to make any sense.

As far as LE. Either they didn't have the ability or the pics weren't planted. There is no way JM would have sat on evidence that could have proven she lied about most of what happened on June 4.

 

[Hope4More]

Noooo. Not you too!! There is no way they didn't have sex that day and really no reason to believe they wouldn't or didn't. Travis had sex with her until she moved and then had phone sex with her - those time and date stamps on the photos are put on there by the InCase software, extracted from exif data stored within the photo itself. There's no way Jodi could have faked that.

LOL, Minor. I've resisted altogether until tonight because:

1. I didn't think JM would cede the point about sex that day if he could prove otherwise. (Still don't)

2. I believe that Travis might have felt extremely guilty about going off on her in that May text exchange, and thus was more vulnerable to her manipulation of telling him let's make peace and then both really move on...

On the other hand, if I knew for sure that it was technically feasible for her to plant the pics in such a way that LE couldn't trace her work , especially after the water/bleach damage, then I can well believe she'd planned to do just that.

 

[minor4th]

Thanks to Jan!!!!!! This is from Detective Flores' interrogation of the killer.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...PTS-of-the-Interrogation-Videos-of-Jodi-Arias

I've added the preceding bit of conversation below for context and bolded the part that gives an indication about how this went down.

Jodi says that Rachel asked her to move out the weekend after Jodi got to Mesa; a breath later Jodi says it was on a Monday or Tuesday that Rachel asked her to move; in her journal, August 8 (Wednesday) is the date that Rachel asks her to move and Jodi also say she has been "living" with Rachel and Scott for two weeks at that point (which cannot really be accurate).

All these conflicting stories lead me to believe that she had not actually pre-arranged with Rachel to move in and live with her and her boyfriend. This was a temporary landing place for Jodi because Rachel was really the only person Jodi knew in Mesa - and Rachel probably just thought Jodi was in town visiting for a couple of days until a week passes and Jodi is still there. At which point, Jodi "scrambles" (her word) to find a place to live. I believe going to Mesa and staying with Rachel was an impulsive move without any planning in advance.

26:24
JA: Umm…the thing about her, and… and… just to give you a background of why I moved suddenly, umm… she [Rachel] approached me the weekend after I got there and said, Hey…she knocked on the door and said, Can I talk to you for a second, I said, Sure, and she moved in with her boyfriend, umm, and they were engaged.

26:41
DF: Okay.

26:42
JA: And she said, Hey, I just wanted to let you know that Scott and I went to Vegas last week and tied the knot, and I was like, Really? And she was like Yeah, we haven’t told anyone but we didn’t want to live in sin, and she had already been sealed in the temple once and was waiting for her cancel

26:56
DF: (unintelligible)

26:59
JA: So they were going to have a civil wedding on a beach in Oregon and they did that the following weekend. She told me that on a Monday or Tuesday. It was the beginning of the week. She said the reason I’m telling you that is because I’m getting married this weekend and I have to go to town a few days ahead of Scott, you know, make arrangements, and now that he’s married man we don’t feel that it’s right that you were here in the house. She was like, I don’t want to inconvenience you but is there anyway you can stay with someone else or just find another place? At the time I was waiting on a house in Gilbert, because I already knew they were getting married so I was kinda’ looking anyway, and there was a great girl named Brenda, and she was waiting on her keys for the mortgage to go through and it was great ward and it was a great house and there was planning (unintelligible) construction and all of that. It was really nice ummm but she didn’t get her keys for months and months. I think she’s in the house now but I don’t know I haven’t talked to her. So I scrambled. I went to the institute. I wrote down a bunch of phone numbers. I called them all. I got voice mails. One girl that answered, her name was Tiffany, and she knew Travis, and she was at his services in Arizona, and umm…as well…and we’ve just remained friends, sort of, like on MySpace and Facebook and that kind of thing and she said, Hey, sorry that’s an updated posting I forgot to take it down. Go to this website, so LDS Housing.net, I went there. I made three phone calls for the places that were within my price range. I didn’t think to look where they were. Umm…the one girl that called me back her name was Shannon Derricott. She said here’s my place, here’s the directions go ahead and go out and come see the house, it’s available, so we did.

28:29
DF: Go ahead

28:30
JA: Do you have to get that?

28:30
DF: No

28:31
JA: Okay. Umm, so I moved out there, and when Travis found out it was so close to him he freaked out about it, and, I made sure to check that it wasn’t, that … that we wouldn’t be in the same ward, and it was within his ward boundaries but it was also within another singles ward boundaries so of course I’m going to go to the other one because it would just be kind of weird. I mean…I didn’t know about him and Lisa, at first..

 

[Hope4More]

Wednesday, August 8, 2007

"I have been living with Rachel & Scott for about 2 weeks now , and push has not quite come to shove, but it's become necessary that I move out w/in the next day or two."

She goes on about how she doesn't have any friends to intrude upon at the moment, but Travis "temporarily" allowed her to store her stuff at his house in exchange for Jodi cleaning Travis' house for free for a week.

August 13, 2007

Travis is concerned about how close Jodi lives to him. Jodi says she is on the verge of pushing him out of her life completely, "which would have to involve moving geographically again."
-----------------------------------
To me it looks like she was ruminating and obsessing about Travis from July 25; she heads to Mesa around August 1 to feed her obsession but without a plan to move there - without any plan for anything, really. Then on Aug. 3 she decides she's staying in Mesa and will just stay with whomever she can.

Her July-August journal entries are interesting to review after this long while. For me they are a reminder about just how precarious her financial situation was.

She had to abandon the PS house - utilities cut off, and the impending foreclosure was going to destroy her credit. Her credit cards were maxed out, she wasn't making carpayments, and she was close to having her car repossessed. She wasn't even paying car insurance on her car, and was driving T's BWI instead.

Her journal indicates her relief when she received her federal tax refund in August(?) 2007, but other than those $$ there is very little mention of $$ coming in.

She vacillates about Travis in July's journal, but she also says many times in the following months that she blew it in June by snooping on him. Sounds like she concluded snagging him was the best bet out of her financial hole, and her "obsession" marched in lock step with her ever worsening financial position.

 

[Hope4More]

I've added the preceding bit of conversation below for context and bolded the part that gives an indication about how this went down.

Jodi says that Rachel asked her to move out the weekend after Jodi got to Mesa; a breath later Jodi says it was on a Monday or Tuesday that Rachel asked her to move; in her journal, August 8 (Wednesday) is the date that Rachel asks her to move and Jodi also say she has been "living" with Rachel and Scott for two weeks at that point (which cannot really be accurate).

All these conflicting stories lead me to believe that she had not actually pre-arranged with Rachel to move in and live with her and her boyfriend. This was a temporary landing place for Jodi because Rachel was really the only person Jodi knew in Mesa - and Rachel probably just thought Jodi was in town visiting for a couple of days until a week passes and Jodi is still there. At which point, Jodi "scrambles" (her word) to find a place to live. I believe going to Mesa and staying with Rachel was an impulsive move without any planning in advance.

OK, in Shannon whatever's book about the killer (this is not a recommend for her book) she provides quotes from Taylor Serle about the killer's impending move to Mesa. (Sorry, book is on my cracked-dead Kindle, can't access).

IIRC, Travis and friends were out 4 wheeling or some such, but Travis ended up spending most of the day arguing with the killer, telling her he did NOT want her to move to Mesa.

If accurate, that indicates she planned on moving there (we know from Sky she was desperate to have T invite her there), but I'm sure she winged it, since she had no money and no actual friends there to help her out.

 

[Hope4More]

I found this within her testimony...

Jodi moved to Mesa ......

--Found another place to rent, didn't want to rent in the same ward as Travis because he had ignored her in church when he was her boyfriend..

This whopper just sunk in. Ignored her in church when they attended together as a couple? When would that have been, exactly, since they lived in different states over those pitifully few months they were "official."

 

[RickshawFan]

This whopper just sunk in. Ignored her in church when they attended together as a couple? When would that have been, exactly, since they lived in different states over those pitifully few months they were "official."

Well, they were "official" from her point of view and boyfriend/girlfriend according to her interrogation with DF. So, her language in the testimony is consistent with past statements. However, I don't believe they were a couple in the sense she keeps stating. I'm not sure there's a whole lot of evidence that he considered them to be a "couple." In fact, in one of the texts Hope summarized, Jodi says if he proposes, she'd require him to court her/go on dates, which suggests there wasn't any of that. I'm assuming a boyfriend/girlfriend relationship in the Mormon sense would require dates and courting.
Plus, Jodi was hanging all over Travis; IIRC he said on another occasion (Palmyra) that he didn't want any displays of affection because it was disrespectful. He may have felt the same way about church behavior.

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

Noooo. Not you too!! There is no way they didn't have sex that day and really no reason to believe they wouldn't or didn't. Travis had sex with her until she moved and then had phone sex with her - those time and date stamps on the photos are put on there by the InCase software, extracted from exif data stored within the photo itself. There's no way Jodi could have faked that.

Could Jodi of left them in April? She told Dec. Flores that they last time they had sex was in Travis's bed in April. There are a few texts between them about the new camera Travis was wanting to get in March. If Travis got the new one before then, she could of. IIRC Travis,or someone, had taken a lot of photos when he got it, and those were the others on that memory stick. She could of left it as a surprise when she was gone. Travis alone, or even better with someone else, looking at photos they took and Jodi's pops up, and they're deleted, or Jodi deletes them that day.

Travis also asks for the shaving photos she took of him back when they were in OKC?, and to bring his journal down.


I found a photo today that I've never seen before, and it was of Travis holding a camera and pointing it at the mirror in the bathroom. You can see the elephant painting over the tub on the wall behind him.


I keep trying to reason this through. I'm sure Jodi attacked and killed Travis just as told det. Flores the ninja's did, and I'm 95% sure of the way Jodi traveled to and from Mesa, and up to Ryan Burns. And it's from Jodi's own words, and it places her in Mesa and elsewhere at a certain points in time, by one cell phone ping, and that was when she powered on her cellphone outside of Kingman Az., but the photos puzzle me. So crass and amateurish. Not at all like the ones of Jodi in a blue man's shirt lying on a couch (you can see a man's head in the mirror), and floor. And she claims she took the photo's of Travis in the suit and they were nicely done. So why crappy ones for that day.

 

[Hope4More]

Well, they were "official" from her point of view and boyfriend/girlfriend according to her interrogation with DF. So, her language in the testimony is consistent with past statements. However, I don't believe they were a couple in the sense she keeps stating. I'm not sure there's a whole lot of evidence that he considered them to be a "couple." In fact, in one of the texts Hope summarized, Jodi says if he proposes, she'd require him to court her/go on dates, which suggests there wasn't any of that. I'm assuming a boyfriend/girlfriend relationship in the Mormon sense would require dates and courting.
Plus, Jodi was hanging all over Travis; IIRC he said on another occasion (Palmyra) that he didn't want any displays of affection because it was disrespectful. He may have felt the same way about church behavior.

I didn't say it well. My point is how could they have gone to church together, since they lived in different states, and since they weren't a couple in any sense of the word when she lived in Mesa?

 

[Val1]

I'm trying to follow the bouncing ball. Key point seems to be only thumbnails exist because pics were deleted and THEN other pics were taken?

How does that fit the scenario of planting the pics? The.only photos taken would have been the shower pics, and she would have already deleted the pics she wanted to plant?

I'm missing something because that doesn't seem to make any sense.

As far as LE. Either they didn't have the ability or the pics weren't planted. There is no way JM would have sat on evidence that could have proven she lied about most of what happened on June 4.

To be honest I'm not convinced she planted the nude pics.

I suspect she had grabbed an old memory stick from TA's desk drawer, camera box, possibly one of her own, perhaps even one of the roommate's(hadn't she used his camera before and left it on TA's car seat?) to take the shower pics as her "trophy". The only way to possibly know whose memory stick is to know what the 90+- other non-deleted pics were and from there we might be able to determine when and where the nudes came from.

Anyway, the memory stick had obviously previously had the nudes on it but they had already been deleted(they all came from unallocated spaces, recovered by Encase**see below for More Info), probably by TA. Then after all hell broke loose and things didn't go as she had planned, she decided to cut her losses after realizing the camera had recorded more than she'd planned on and deleted the shower pics. She couldn't take the chance on getting caught with them, especially if she had realized they had the date stamp on them, something her own cameras may not have had or been set up to record.

Now whether she deliberately tossed the memory stick in the washing machine we'll likely never know for sure(it may have fallen in or got caught up with the bloody clothes etc), but since she did toss the camera and iirc the memory stick was found not in the camera(would be near impossible for it to come loose on its own even in a washing machine) with a bunch of bloody clothes etc and added bleach to the wash, it's possible she did it on purpose.

I'm guessing that the memory stick had not been hers(to be determined by the other pics left on it) and that she thought between deleting the shower pics and then putting it through the wash would be sufficient to keep her off the radar. After all, the camera was inoperable, so the internal memory was gone and she may not have thought they'd do a forensic scan on the card if it still had a bunch of pics left on it.

As far as the LE or JM, her "confessing" to having been there and having sex that date worked for their case, I can see why they ran with it especially since JA, after some time to reflect on her options/version, confessed to it. That doesn't mean it happened.
-----
***More Info:
https://digital-forensics.sans.org/blog/2009/01/29/dates-from-unallocated-space
"Thumbs.db - This is a Windows database that's used to maintain a thumbnail view of graphic files located in the folder where it's found. It will often still contain thumbnail views of files which have since been deleted. If you carve this file out of unallocated space and extract its contents with a tool such as Encase or Vinetto, you will obtain the most recent last written date for each file who's thumbnail is included, from the time when the thumbnail was generated."
-----
The last written date for that file was June 4, 2008(ie.the shower pics), but the times would have come from when they generated(pulled?) the unallocated pics from the file... I think. Anyone around that can better interpret the tech talk?

 

[Val1]

Interesting, it seems this pic of JA(with hair colour very similar to what she had in the braids pic) may have been superimposed over one of Brian Bierwiler Photography/Four Alarm Pictures. This is something some of us had speculated she'd done with more than one of her travel pics, both with and without TA. I guess that's one way to keep someone from figuring out what the real date of the pic would be. :/

http://www.cbsnews.com/pictures/jodi-arias-close-up/1/
https://www.facebook.com/FourAlarmP...75122.357033087697688/358114234256240/?type=3

 

[Val1]

This whopper just sunk in. Ignored her in church when they attended together as a couple? When would that have been, exactly, since they lived in different states over those pitifully few months they were "official."

Didn't they used to meet at Skye's for the weekend when she was still living in Cali, allegedly so they could all go to church together? That was before Skye told TA to never bring her there again...

 

[Steve44]

LOL, Minor. I've resisted altogether until tonight because:

1. I didn't think JM would cede the point about sex that day if he could prove otherwise. (Still don't)

2. I believe that Travis might have felt extremely guilty about going off on her in that May text exchange, and thus was more vulnerable to her manipulation of telling him let's make peace and then both really move on...

On the other hand, if I knew for sure that it was technically feasible for her to plant the pics in such a way that LE couldn't trace her work , especially after the water/bleach damage, then I can well believe she'd planned to do just that.

I have no problem believing they had sex that day, and that the pictures were from that day. Here's why:

1. Jodi arrived in Mesa approx. 4am and left approx. 5pm. That's 13 hours she had to interact with Travis. Even assuming they slept part of the time or she left and came back (not likely since she didn't want to be seen there and would likely not leave the house once she was in until she was leaving) that's a long time to interact with someone you no longer get along with and really doesn't want you around.

2. Offering sex as a way to extend her welcome is only logical considering Travis' vulnerability to her charms. I also believe her ultimate goal was to get him in the shower so sex would be a way to assure that would happen sooner rather than later and also make him more comfortable being naked around her.

3. In order to manipulate him into sex in light of the previous argument and bad feeling between them, she could offer him capitulation and validation on all his points, and offer to end their relationship completely, but on a good note. This would assuage his guilt about the argument and seem to him to be the best option.

4. As far as the nude pictures being deleted, she mentioned in the interrogation that they had photographed their sexcapades before, but would usually delete most of them immediately.

5. Whether the time stamps were created by Encase or the camera, some nude pics have a time stamp of early afternoon, 1-2pm, whereas the shower pics are much later, 5'ish pm. I don't know the technical reasons for this, but it's consistent with the likely actual time line of events, so I'm inclined to believe they are accurate.

 

[Val1]

I have no problem believing they had sex that day, and that pictures were from that day. Here's why:

1. Jodi arrived in Mesa approx. 4am and left approx. 5pm. That's 13 hours she had to interact with Travis. Even assuming they slept part of the time or she left and came back (not likely since she didn't want to be seen there and would likely not leave the house once she was in until she was leaving) that's a long time to interact with someone you no longer get along with and really doesn't want you around.

2. Offering sex as a way to extend her welcome is only logical considering Travis' vulnerability to her charms. I also believe her ultimate goal was to get him in the shower so sex would be a way to assure that would happen sooner rather than later and also make him more comfortable being naked around her.

3. In order to manipulate him into sex in light of the previous argument and bad feeling between them, she could offer him capitulation and validation on all his points, and offer to end their relationship completely, but on a good note. This would assuage his guilt about the argument and seem to him to be the best option.

4. As far as the nude pictures being deleted, she mentioned in the interrogation that they had photographed their sexcapades before, but would usually delete most of them immediately.

5. Whether the time stamps were created by Encase or the camera, some nude pics have a time stamp of early afternoon, 1-2pm, whereas the shower pics are much later, 5'ish pm. I don't know the technical reasons for this, but it's consistent with the likely actual time line of events, so I'm inclined to believe they are accurate.

1) Just because she may have arrived in Mesa around 4am doesn't mean TA knew it, she had a different car with possibly no plates and likely parked down the street to avoid detection and then just helped herself into the garage to wait until the roommate left. It's more than possible she fell asleep while waiting and then let herself into the office to poke around, find the camera, inspect the safe, etc until she heard TA in the shower.
2) I feel pretty confident that as forgiving as TA was, even he was past that. In fact, the angry texts may even have been about him finding the nude pics.
3) See above, he was trying to move on without her, he'd made that pretty clear.
4) TA could only delete the ones he knew about, I wouldn't doubt she'd collected what she could if only for blackmail, see 2.
5) The problem with this is that all of the nudes were in unallocated spaces and therefore the dates all came from Encase(see my above post) and the times of those would also be consistent with LE's work hours. The shower pics were only deleted so their exif data was intact and Encase was able to pull the actual dates and times from that.