Small Details that are interesting in the Cooper Harris case, #1

[SmartSassyBBW]

could not readily locate a link to info from stoddard at PCH about cup so I deleted mine of earlier re that issue.

But like the carseat straps on straps off thing, I don't know why RH grabbing his computer bag from passenger seat and additionally grabbing a cup from his console before exiting the vehicle is a big deal.

ETA Stoddard and the DA were tasked with giving away enough about their evidence in what is still very much an active and ongoing investigation to secure their charges against RH. The requirement was not to give with specificity every ounce of evidence or knowledge they have to the court and via the hearing the public each and every bit of information they have. That is for trial.

They were focused on relaying what they felt important in explaining how they have concluded these charges are proper. Apparently whether RH carried a cup and computer bag or just computer bag out of the car with him that morning was not considered telling evidence, therefore it may have gotten no mention.

If it was his to go drink from Chik a fil it is a huge deal. If he took it to his desk and wasn't reminded of Cooper still in the car it is another evidentiary nail in Dad's coffin.

 

[matou]

[h=1]Toddler dad case hinges on digital sleuthing[/h]Everyone, from prosecutors to the defense, knows Justin Ross Harris caused the death of his toddler son, Cooper, last month by leaving him in a hot car for seven hours.
The question is why.
In testimony on July 3, Cobb County prosecutors used tidbits culled from Harris’ electronic devices — sexting, viewing troubling websites — to shock an international audience. When the trial opens, their task will be harder: to convince a jury he didn’t simply forget his son was in the car. Key tools, they made clear, will be Ross Harris’ own half-dozen devices, from his iPhone to laptops and a video streaming device.

http://www.ajc.com/news/news/crime-law/toddler-dad-case-hinges-on-digital-sleuthing/ngntq/

 

[matou]

New article that I can't read without subscription.

On July 3, Cobb police and prosecutors successfully used tidbits culled from Justin Ross Harris’ electronic devices to shock an international audience. When the trial opens, their task will be harder: to convince a jury, beyond a reasonable doubt, that Harris was — at the least — criminally negligent, not just tragically distracted, when he left his 22-month-0ld son in the car for seven hours.

http://www.myajc.com/news/news/crime-law/toddler-dads-fate-rests-on-digital-sleuthing/ngm4x/

 

[matou]

Looks like the AJC is the press for the defense. JMO

 

[AuburnTxTiger]

Here ya go :seeya:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?249256-CAR-SEAT-discussion&p=10787397#post10787397

This is a great explanation of how the lowest setting on the car seat would work. This is also what I remember being explained on this forum or the General Forum before the Car Seat Forum was started.


kimi_SFC's post:
I have two children, and remember the transitional milestones of their car seats well. This image makes me sad, and I am coming out of mode to say this...

The straps would run behind Cooper's shoulders, like suspenders. This has been discussed before - that this would violate the manufacturer's recommendation for the straps - and they should have been adjusted to the higher levels to fit him as he grew, and then he should have been in a "big boy" seat if he simply didn't fit anymore.

It has also been discussed that these strap adjustments are not simple, and parents often continue to improperly belt their children in. The links and posts are upthread and were also in the GD threads.

The top of the belt is not rigid - so I respectfully disagree. It can be done. It would have been very uncomfortable for Cooper, especially depending upon how upright he was seated, and resisting this seating position. IMO.

Just to be clear, just because it was physically possible, doesn't make it right. It wasn't (and isn't); the increasing levels exist for safety and comfort - both of which jrh appeared to have ignored.

 

[human]

Responding to the previous post, regarding choking - and yours regarding color:
If when RH claims he noticed Cooper, seeing a portion of his skin (top of his head), it may have been blue.

If I'm not mistaken, it was mentioned (msm, pch either or both) that Cooper's head was about an inch above the back of the car seat.
It may have been reported as a little higher? and portion of Coopers head would've been visible?

I'm just trying to contribute some explanations - just some thoughts or moo :moo:

I still question, and I'm waiting for trial to make a conclusion if/when/how visible Cooper was, exact position of car seat,
and exactly when was it that RH would have to have seen Cooper. (I'm hoping this sentence makes sense, lol)

It would be the back of his head and his head is covered with hair. So, I do not see how he could see the blue.

 

[Evie Ivy Over]

Well, I will address you about this.

What does it matter if Cooper was buckled in or not?

If he was, that explains why he had rigor in a seated position.

If he wasn't, then just add another negligence charge onto Ross' ever-growing list of crimes.

Please explain why you think that Cooper was not buckled in, and also why it matters as far as intent or charges are concerned.

I really want to know. This is the perfect forum to explain your reasoning. No one is being hostile or telling you to not speak. Please DO speak.

I honestly think a lot of us are confused by what you are getting at.

ETA: I am not being rude. i really want you to have a chance to spell it out. i realized my post sounded kind of short. It was not meant that way.

Okay...I don't want anyone to think I'm defending RH in any way--I think he's a total idiot for allowing this to happen. If I ever knew him personally, I'm almost sure I wouldn't like him--even before this happened. But, at the same time I don't really think (right now anyways) that he intended to kill his son. This whole car seat thing is just one theory I've come up with to try to understand how a person could accidentally leave their child in the car.

* If Cooper wasn't buckled in his seat, but was buckled in the back seat behind the driver instead, it would maybe explain why RH didn't see him when he forgot about him and got out of the car at work.

* Being buckled in the back seat would still leave his legs extended, and they could even have been bent.

* I think RH lied about the car seat and went into so much detail about it to LE because he was wanting to cover up the fact he broke the car seat law. Once he was charged with murder, the last thing he wants to do is to say he lied about anything that was initially said.

* My theory is that they forgot to get the car seat out of LH's car that morning and that he may have tried to use the small seat, but realized that wasn't going to work. I also wonder if the "get to work okay?" comment referred to how he made out without the car seat.

I'm sure if this actually did happen, it won't help his case very much, but it would be nice to know that he didn't kill his child on purpose. I actually think the whole distraction was cell phone related, and that there were other things going on that added to the end result.

eace:

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

Here ya go :seeya:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?249256-CAR-SEAT-discussion&p=10787397#post10787397

Thank you, Lovejac for providing that link.
So, what I'm gathering is that a poster thinks there is an issue with the way CH was positioned into a too tiny carseat and if it was buckled or not. This poster feels that it is pertinent in that it may be why RH's behavior was so odd when the police arrived at the scene---RH felt guilty 'cause the car seat was too small. This theory simply addresses the possible reason for why RH's behavior was "off". Is this correct?

It still does not address if the death of CH was simple negligence (at best) or something premeditated or nefarious (at worst). Remember, RH can be charged and has been arrested for negligence which does not have to prove motive. But I betcha' LE ***does*** take it beyond negligence and proves premeditated motives.

moo.

 

[human]

New article that I can't read without subscription.

On July 3, Cobb police and prosecutors successfully used tidbits culled from Justin Ross Harris’ electronic devices to shock an international audience. When the trial opens, their task will be harder: to convince a jury, beyond a reasonable doubt, that Harris was — at the least — criminally negligent, not just tragically distracted, when he left his 22-month-0ld son in the car for seven hours.

http://www.myajc.com/news/news/crime-law/toddler-dads-fate-rests-on-digital-sleuthing/ngm4x/

Pardon me while I go vomit.

I like other posts who talked about what if he was drunk or high on drugs. Would that be OK?

Since he was distracted with his pee pee pics, I guess that is OK

 

[EvilSoup]

Okay...I don't want anyone to think I'm defending RH in any way--I think he's a total idiot for allowing this to happen. If I ever knew him personally, I'm almost sure I wouldn't like him--even before this happened. But, at the same time I don't really think (right now anyways) that he intended to kill his son. This whole car seat thing is just one theory I've come up with to try to understand how a person could accidentally leave their child in the car.

* If Cooper wasn't buckled in his seat, but was buckled in the back seat behind the driver instead, it would maybe explain why RH didn't see him when he forgot about him and got out of the car at work.

* Being buckled in the back seat would still leave his legs extended, and they could even have been bent.

* I think RH lied about the car seat and went into so much detail about it to LE because he was wanting to cover up the fact he broke the car seat law. Once he was charged with murder, the last thing he wants to do is to say he lied about anything that was initially said.

* My theory is that they forgot to get the car seat out of LH's car that morning and that he may have tried to use the small seat, but realized that wasn't going to work. I also wonder if the "get to work okay?" comment referred to how he made out without the car seat.

I'm sure if this actually did happen, it won't help his case very much, but it would be nice to know that he didn't kill his child on purpose. I actually think the whole distraction was cell phone related, and that there were other things going on that added to the end result.

eace:

Thank you! It is really nice to see what you are working on!

All of your points make perfect sense.

I think we would need to see the full autopsy report to see if there was bruising and strap marks on Cooper's body.

The only other thing that I think doesn't work is that Cooper likely could have unbuckled or wriggled out of a regular lap/shoulder belt.

But it is really nice to see where you were going with this, and personally, I think some of your points have merit.

I agree it would be nice to think Ross did not do this on purpose, but my gut tells me he did. I hope we will find out the truth one day.

 

[Lovejac]

Thank you, Lovejac for providing that link.
So, what I'm gathering is that a poster thinks there is an issue with the way CH was positioned into a too tiny carseat and if it was buckled or not. This poster feels that it is pertinent in that it may be why RH's behavior was so odd when the police arrived at the scene---RH felt guilty 'cause the car seat was too small. This theory simply addresses the possible reason for why RH's behavior was "off". Is this correct?

It still does not address if the death of CH was simple negligence (at best) or something premeditated or nefarious (at worst). Remember, RH can be charged and has been arrested for negligence which does not have to prove motive. But I betcha' LE ***does*** take it beyond negligence and proves premeditated motives.

moo.

I truly believe that what we saw at the PCH, in regards to the electronic info, is just the tip of the iceburg. Like the calm before the storm.

I'm expecting way more shocking info to come out

 

[DeDee]

RBBM

re: child choking - maybe when he noticed Cooper, he saw that he had a blueish coloring. Automatically thinking of choking. With all of the info regarding noises a body can make, well, maybe he did think he was choking?

RSBMFF

If Ross noticed his son, he would have seen Cooper's discolored skin, bloating, dampness: wet hair & clothing, hot to touch, stiff from rigor, redness from livor, w/blanching where the straps were tight across him. Cooper had fresh scratch marks on his perfect baby face. Cooper's blue eyes were open. His mouth was open with his once tiny pink, now blue, tongue protruding. Expect to see in the AR that the tip of Cooper's tongue had dried from exposure to air. None, absolutely none of those conditions, demonstrate Cooper could have been possibly been choking anytime within the past four to five hours because Cooper was already gone that long when he was "discovered".

Moo and all that jazz

 

[human]

And, if a child is buckled in with a car seat belt, I don't think the belt would hold a child in.

I really don't get it. RH was more concerned about a seat belt law than the fact his child was dead?

Why?

 

[Hippiemomof5]

I can't say too much here, because my posts on this get deleted--but I think Cooper was buckled in the back seat. If you look at the picture of the car seat with the buckle in the lower position (as testified by Stoddard), there is no way Cooper would have fit in those straps. And I don't really see that as something based on opinion--it appears to be a physical impossibility--I can't see how anyone can even envision that as a possibility. (Hope you see this before it's gone.)

Evie, it's not a physical impossibility. I know the picture that's being shown is confusing because the straps are so short, but that's how it would be adjusted for a small newborn. All that needs to be done for a larger child to fit is have the straps lengthened, which just takes a moment. Cooper should not have been in a seat that small, he was over the height (and possibly weight) limit for that particular seat, but physically, he would still fit in it, and be able to be buckled, but in an accident, he would not be well protected.

 

[AuburnTxTiger]

Okay...I don't want anyone to think I'm defending RH in any way--I think he's a total idiot for allowing this to happen. If I ever knew him personally, I'm almost sure I wouldn't like him--even before this happened. But, at the same time I don't really think (right now anyways) that he intended to kill his son. This whole car seat thing is just one theory I've come up with to try to understand how a person could accidentally leave their child in the car.

* If Cooper wasn't buckled in his seat, but was buckled in the back seat behind the driver instead, it would maybe explain why RH didn't see him when he forgot about him and got out of the car at work.

* Being buckled in the back seat would still leave his legs extended, and they could even have been bent.

* I think RH lied about the car seat and went into so much detail about it to LE because he was wanting to cover up the fact he broke the car seat law. Once he was charged with murder, the last thing he wants to do is to say he lied about anything that was initially said.

* My theory is that they forgot to get the car seat out of LH's car that morning and that he may have tried to use the small seat, but realized that wasn't going to work. I also wonder if the "get to work okay?" comment referred to how he made out without the car seat.

I'm sure if this actually did happen, it won't help his case very much, but it would be nice to know that he didn't kill his child on purpose. I actually think the whole distraction was cell phone related, and that there were other things going on that added to the end result.

eace:

At the PCH was it stated that security video from Chick Fil A showed RH buckling CH in or did the detective testify that RH told him he did that. I can't remember. If this goes to trial, I will watch every minute and will probably take notes. There are so many facts, testimony, videos, etc.

 

[Evie Ivy Over]

Thank you! It is really nice to see what you are working on!

All of your points make perfect sense.

I think we would need to see the full autopsy report to see if there was bruising and strap marks on Cooper's body.

The only other thing that I think doesn't work is that Cooper likely could have unbuckled or wriggled out of a regular lap/shoulder belt.

But it is really nice to see where you were going with this, and personally, I think some of your points have merit.

I agree it would be nice to think Ross did not do this on purpose, but my gut tells me he did. I hope we will find out the truth one day.

Thanks, EvilSoup...This is one of those theories that will be black and white once the forensics are complete--if Cooper was in the seat, we'll know it and this one will go down the toilet in a hurry. Grabbing for straws? Maybe. I'm with you--I hope we will someday find the truth. I think it will be a wild ride in the meantime--I can just imagine what information we don't know about yet for this case.

 

[gngr~snap]

Okay...I don't want anyone to think I'm defending RH in any way--I think he's a total idiot for allowing this to happen. If I ever knew him personally, I'm almost sure I wouldn't like him--even before this happened. But, at the same time I don't really think (right now anyways) that he intended to kill his son. This whole car seat thing is just one theory I've come up with to try to understand how a person could accidentally leave their child in the car.

* If Cooper wasn't buckled in his seat, but was buckled in the back seat behind the driver instead, it would maybe explain why RH didn't see him when he forgot about him and got out of the car at work.

* Being buckled in the back seat would still leave his legs extended, and they could even have been bent.

* I think RH lied about the car seat and went into so much detail about it to LE because he was wanting to cover up the fact he broke the car seat law. Once he was charged with murder, the last thing he wants to do is to say he lied about anything that was initially said.

* My theory is that they forgot to get the car seat out of LH's car that morning and that he may have tried to use the small seat, but realized that wasn't going to work. I also wonder if the "get to work okay?" comment referred to how he made out without the car seat.

I'm sure if this actually did happen, it won't help his case very much, but it would be nice to know that he didn't kill his child on purpose. I actually think the whole distraction was cell phone related, and that there were other things going on that added to the end result.

eace:

The first responders, police and the ME knew he was tightly buckled in due to livor mortis...
If they can tell if you were wearing a bra or not when you died, they'll know if he was strapped in by a harness or a lap belt. (I don't know many toddlers that wouldn't be able to escape a lap belt.)
Besides the video at Chick Fil a shows RH buckling him in the seat doesn't it ?

I don't remember for sure.


NSFW-
***Graphic pictureof Livor Mortis
http://www.iupui.edu/~pathol/autopsy/main/11/11.htm


All posts are MOO

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

Everyone has their "thinking caps" on tonight which is great to see!

You guys rock! Good points, everyone! :takeabow:

 

[Evie Ivy Over]

Evie, it's not a physical impossibility. I know the picture that's being shown is confusing because the straps are so short, but that's how it would be adjusted for a small newborn. All that needs to be done for a larger child to fit is have the straps lengthened, which just takes a moment. Cooper should not have been in a seat that small, he was over the height (and possibly weight) limit for that particular seat, but physically, he would still fit in it, and be able to be buckled, but in an accident, he would not be well protected.

Well, if they weren't just using the new one (and leaving it at daycare), then it must have somewhat fit because LH had it in her car the two weeks before this happened (because of RH having the new bigger one in his car at that time). Maybe it wasn't as tight as I would imagine. I just saw that lower setting and can't figure out why neither LH or RH would have adjusted those straps to the higher setting at some point--even if it fit, it's a b**ch to get those things buckled when they're not set right.

 

[gngr~snap]

New article that I can't read without subscription.

On July 3, Cobb police and prosecutors successfully used tidbits culled from Justin Ross Harris’ electronic devices to shock an international audience. When the trial opens, their task will be harder: to convince a jury, beyond a reasonable doubt, that Harris was — at the least — criminally negligent, not just tragically distracted, when he left his 22-month-0ld son in the car for seven hours.

http://www.myajc.com/news/news/crime-law/toddler-dads-fate-rests-on-digital-sleuthing/ngm4x/

Ok! I wanna run and buy a paper and I don't have a car. Maybe I should just subscribe?
Ya know take one for the team?

All posts are MOO