The December 23 party

[BBB167893]

Hi ambitioned, my apologies for the late reply- it's been a hectic week, and just trying to catch up now! Thanks so much for posting these pictures- they were exactly the ones I was talking about.

I take them as clear indication that JB was being abused in some way, for some time before her death. Poor little thing! So sad- but she was obviously a brave little girl, to keep smiling in spite of whatever private pain she was enduring. I'm no expert, but I've read and heard that many abused children are determined to try to put a brave face on things and keep smiling in public, when they can.

That's true. We've heard the classic symptoms of abused children, but that's kind of like looking for a rabid dog by seeing which one is foaming at the mouth: you'll only find one out of ten. And you have to figure that, with Patsy as her mother and her emphasis on outward perfection, the "brave face" would be heightened, regardless.

Whoever was doing it, Scandigirl, consider this: JonBenet would have been an even better victim for abuse (whoever was doing it) because of her training to be obedient.

 

[icedtea4me]

*snip*I suppose it's easy to judge, when I'm not in their situation, but if I was JB's mother and saw those marks on her, I wouldn't have allowed both kids to still be sleeping in next door bedrooms unsupervised at night, while I was on a completely separate floor- especially if I knew both kids often went into each other's rooms at night.

https://static1.squarespace.com/sta...1da2994ca66b9e5f630/1470771677493/TS-4+C2.jpg

Wow. You were right. Their bedrooms were right next door to each other.

 

[Scandigirl]

https://static1.squarespace.com/sta...1da2994ca66b9e5f630/1470771677493/TS-4+C2.jpg

Wow. You were right. Their bedrooms were right next door to each other.

Thanks for posting the link, as it's a very clear view of the layout. My apologies, you are correct that I was wrong about their bedrooms being directly next door to each other. I was sure I had read that numerous times in various places, but should have checked.

However, I still stand by the essence of the point I was making- the parents' bedroom was still separated on a different floor, which would have made it harder to hear/see anything that might have been going on. And, in my humble opinion only, seeing that both kids' bedrooms were actually quite a distance from each other (although on the same floor) it's even more surprising how often they were said to end up in each others' rooms. The lack of convenience would have meant they would have had to make a certain amount of effort to seek each other out.

Of course, that way of seeing it is subjective, and it's purely my own point of view.

 

[Userid]

Thanks for posting the link, as it's a very clear view of the layout. My apologies, you are correct that I was wrong about their bedroom being directly next door to each other. I was sure I had read that numerous times in various places, but should have checked.

However, I still stand by the essence of the point I was making- the parents' bedroom was still separated on a different floor, which would have made it harder to hear/see anything that might have been going on. And, in my humble opinion only, seeing that both kids' bedrooms were actually quite a distance from each other (although on the same floor) it's even more surprising how often they were said to end up in each others' rooms. The lack of convenience would have meant they would have had to make a certain amount of effort to seek each other out.

Of course, that way of seeing it is subjective, and it's purely my own point of view.

Yes, I mentioned something similar. I can't believe she was allowed to have that particular bedroom. In that graphic that Icedtea4me posted, on the floor above, the parents positioned their bed directly above BR's room. Just think about that for a second: their bed was on the complete opposite end of the house compared to where JBR slept, as was BR's bedroom. If anything was wrong during the night and JBR was crying for help, they would never hear it, when it came to JBR. That, in addition to the fact that spiral case led right to an outside door, utterly bewilders me why any parent would house a child in this bedroom. The child, if she was ever so inclined, could have easily snuck out of the entire house without her parents ever knowing, considering where their bed was positioned, on a separate floor above no less. Utterly boggles my mind.

 

[DrollForeignFaction]

Thanks for posting the link, as it's a very clear view of the layout. My apologies, you are correct that I was wrong about their bedrooms being directly next door to each other. I was sure I had read that numerous times in various places, but should have checked.

However, I still stand by the essence of the point I was making- the parents' bedroom was still separated on a different floor, which would have made it harder to hear/see anything that might have been going on. And, in my humble opinion only, seeing that both kids' bedrooms were actually quite a distance from each other (although on the same floor) it's even more surprising how often they were said to end up in each others' rooms. The lack of convenience would have meant they would have had to make a certain amount of effort to seek each other out.

Of course, that way of seeing it is subjective, and it's purely my own point of view.

The bolded struck me too. I don't know how well-lit that area was at bedtime but it's quite a trek for a 6 year old to make in the dark in the middle of the night. But that might just be me, after all I still get creeped out walking around my little apartment in the dark, nevermind a big house like the Ramseys had.



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[Scandigirl]

Userid and DrollFF, thanks for your replies, and I agree with all your points. Although I don't have children myself yet, my sister and many of my friends have children under the age of ten, and none of them would choose a bedroom on another floor from their kids- unless they had no choice because of room layouts, or not enough bedrooms. If they had enough space and options (as JR and PR did), they wouldn't choose their own desire for privacy over the potential safety of their children.

Safety of course can mean accidents and injury (as Userid has said) and not only the threat of one sibling harming or fighting with another. If PR or JR knew that there were any problems, or even a warning of potential problems between BR and JB, I can't fathom how they could have carried on with those sleeping arrangements. I think they must have either been turning a blind eye to things, ignoring warning signs, or been in some kind of denial- who knows?

One other thing that's occurred to me is that I've only ever heard of JB sleeping in BR's room, but did he also sleep in hers? We don't know for sure if he was seeking her out more often, or if it was the other way round, or a mutual thing? I agree with DrollFF that it must have seemed quite scary walking the distance between those rooms in the dark, especially at JB's age!

Meanwhile, I know this thread is meant to be focussed on the December party, and the topic has somehow wandered. I'm not meaning to derail the thread, if anyone wants to pull it back on track.

 

[UKGuy]

Scandigirl,
JonBenet sleeping BR's bedroom was explained by PR as a consequence of JonBenet wetting her bed, i.e. not playing doctor, but she agreed it was a regular thing. Last took place on Christmas Eve.


.

 

[DrollForeignFaction]

Userid and DrollFF, thanks for your replies, and I agree with all your points. Although I don't have children myself yet, my sister and many of my friends have children under the age of ten, and none of them would choose a bedroom on another floor from their kids- unless they had no choice because of room layouts, or not enough bedrooms. If they had enough space and options (as JR and PR did), they wouldn't choose their own desire for privacy over the potential safety of their children.

Safety of course can mean accidents and injury (as Userid has said) and not only the threat of one sibling harming or fighting with another. If PR or JR knew that there were any problems, or even a warning of potential problems between BR and JB, I can't fathom how they could have carried on with those sleeping arrangements. I think they must have either been turning a blind eye to things, ignoring warning signs, or been in some kind of denial- who knows?

One other thing that's occurred to me is that I've only ever heard of JB sleeping in BR's room, but did he also sleep in hers? We don't know for sure if he was seeking her out more often, or if it was the other way round, or a mutual thing? I agree with DrollFF that it must have seemed quite scary walking the distance between those rooms in the dark, especially at JB's age!

Meanwhile, I know this thread is meant to be focussed on the December party, and the topic has somehow wandered. I'm not meaning to derail the thread, if anyone wants to pull it back on track.

This is from the transcript portions of Burke's interview with Det. Schuler that the National Enquirer published recently:

NE: "Schuler asked Burke where people slept in the home and he admitted sometimes sneaking into his sister's room at night. Did he do that on the night she was killed?"
DS: This bedroom?
BR: I would sometimes sleep on - I forget which bed. But I would sometimes sleep in there 'cause mine got cold.
DS: 'Cause your room got cold. So whose bed was this?
BR: Um, JonBenet.
DS: Okay, so when it gets real cold in the winter, would you sleep over here?
BR: Yeah. I would sleep in there 'cause my room's kind of an older part of the house, 'cause that's the way it is.
DS: Yeah, some of the older parts are like that, without the insulation in them. Okay, how often would you sleep over here sometimes?
BR: Usually like really cold nights.

In the same interview he says that JB slept in his room Christmas Eve so they could wake up their parents in the morning. That might be a clue as to how B and JB were getting along between the 911 call on the 23rd and her being murdered on the 25th/26th, I guess.

 

[Userid]

Scandigirl,
JonBenet sleeping BR's bedroom was explained by PR as a consequence of JonBenet wetting her bed, i.e. not playing doctor, but she agreed it was a regular thing. Last took place on Christmas Eve.


.

You know, I could be totally wrong here, but I never really bought that as an excuse. You had JAR's bedroom directly across the hall from a bathroom. The minute he moved away for college, I would have housed JBR in his room and had all my small children close by and on the same wing of the house.

First, the excuse for housing her in this far-away room, was because it had a TV; then, it was because it had a bathroom (i.e. her bed-wetting). Personally, I don't buy either of these reasons, because first and foremost, a child's overall safety would supersede (or at least, should have) either of these reasons.

 

[UKGuy]

You know, I could be totally wrong here, but I never really bought that as an excuse. You had JAR's bedroom directly across the hall from a bathroom. The minute he moved away for college, I would have housed JBR in his room and had all my small children close by and on the same wing of the house.

First, the excuse for housing her in this far-away room, was because it had a TV; then, it was because it had a bathroom (i.e. her bed-wetting). Personally, I don't buy either of these reasons, because first and foremost, a child's overall safety would supersede (or at least, should have) either of these reasons.

Userid,
ITA. Yet Patsy has to have explanations for some of the events in the R household.

Nobody except Mommy or Dr Beuf is allowed to touch JonBenet intimately is another such excuse.

Yet Patsy knew, as did LHP, that JonBenet and BR played doctor.

Maybe this is what led to the child abuse charge by the GJ, i.e. they knew she knew?

.

 

[TeaTime]

Re-reading Steve Thomas's book. The Ramsey's had a catered party for 80 people on the 13th of December. The detectives weren't told this for MONTHS!

 

[singularity]

You know, I could be totally wrong here, but I never really bought that as an excuse. You had JAR's bedroom directly across the hall from a bathroom. The minute he moved away for college, I would have housed JBR in his room and had all my small children close by and on the same wing of the house.

First, the excuse for housing her in this far-away room, was because it had a TV; then, it was because it had a bathroom (i.e. her bed-wetting). Personally, I don't buy either of these reasons, because first and foremost, a child's overall safety would supersede (or at least, should have) either of these reasons.

THis is one of the many layers of dysfunction in this household and both John and Patsy should've been hammered on this issue. There's no legitimate reason for that to have been her bedroom.

JAR should've been interrogated as well. Not about murder but about everything else. He was handed a free pass that he didn't deserve.

Re-reading Steve Thomas's book. The Ramsey's had a catered party for 80 people on the 13th of December. The detectives weren't told this for MONTHS!

THis party is mentioned in one of the transcripts and they cant account for Jonbenet at this party either. They change the subject immediately talking about what food they were serving. THis family doesn't like talking about Jonbenet and parties and the 'interrogators' needed to dive deeper into this issue.

 

[DeDee]

Re-reading Steve Thomas's book. The Ramsey's had a catered party for 80 people on the 13th of December. The detectives weren't told this for MONTHS!

This was a Moyer Group party as is tradition in the Episcopal Church to which they belonged. Several members host a portion of the evening's menu. First home serves hors d'oeuvres and cocktails. The next home serves salads and so on until ending with dessert and a nightcap at the last home on the tour. It takes all evening and they are a blast!

 

[mhmb]

Does anyone know where this picture went to? All I see is a silhouette.

 

[DrollForeignFaction]

Does anyone know where this picture went to? All I see is a silhouette.

What picture are you talking about? What's it supposed to be of?


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[Miz Adventure]

Another thing I found strange was that JBR slept with her bedroom door closed. Her mother wouldn't hear if JBR got up in the night, so I think that is fishy.

However, the door was closed after JBR had supposedly been 'taken'. No intruder is going to bother taking the time to close a door behind him, when he is holding a child.

 

[CindyTx]

Hello all,

So it has been 20 years. I am just thinking of all these people and the children who were there and who were around during this year. 20 years later...and no one has come forward to tell their story...their perspective of events. Why would that be? The most likely scenario is that something happened that involved the children. If I was witness to something that many years ago and I had some info...I would have come forward by now. Why are they all so quiet? Unless they are protecting juveniles.

--Cindy

 

[TeaTime]

Hello all,

So it has been 20 years. I am just thinking of all these people and the children who were there and who were around during this year. 20 years later...and no one has come forward to tell their story...their perspective of events. Why would that be? The most likely scenario is that something happened that involved the children. If I was witness to something that many years ago and I had some info...I would have come forward by now. Why are they all so quiet? Unless they are protecting juveniles.

--Cindy

I assume you are talking about the guests on Dec. 23rd. Maybe there is nothing more to tell. It was a party with gingerbread houses, children, parents, neighbors, gifts, Santa, food and drink. We know that there was a 911 call and that FW thinks he mistakenly dialed when trying to locate medicine for his mother. We know that JBR talked of the secret Santa who was to visit after Christmas and that she wasn't feeling 'pretty' and that her mother had made her take off her make-up. You can bet that everyone in attendance was contacted by BPD. Whether they talked or not is another story.

 

[DrollForeignFaction]

I assume you are talking about the guests on Dec. 23rd. Maybe there is nothing more to tell. It was a party with gingerbread houses, children, parents, neighbors, gifts, Santa, food and drink. We know that there was a 911 call and that FW thinks he mistakenly dialed when trying to locate medicine for his mother. We know that JBR talked of the secret Santa who was to visit after Christmas and that she wasn't feeling 'pretty' and that her mother had made her take off her make-up. You can bet that everyone in attendance was contacted by BPD. Whether they talked or not is another story.

About the bolded, I'm pretty sure that was what the Ramseys said about the call in DOI, so we don't know if that's true or not. And then weirdly, after offering that explanation for why the call was made, the Ramseys contradict themselves and say that the call would always be a "mystery".

I don't believe FW ever said (or was quoted explaining) what involvement, if any, he had in the 911 call on the 23rd.



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[Malcolm]

About the bolded, I'm pretty sure that was what the Ramseys said about the call in DOI, so we don't know if that's true or not. And then weirdly, after offering that explanation for why the call was made, the Ramseys contradict themselves and say that the call would always be a "mystery".

I don't believe FW ever said (or was quoted explaining) what involvement, if any, he had in the 911 call on the 23rd.



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If you are correct, and I think you are, this would be one of those mysteries that could be easily cleared up by FW. If he says he accidentally made the call we can stop talking about it. If he says otherwise it is a massive red flag for RDI. Actually if FW spoke I think many pieces of this puzzle could be put to bed.