The December 23 party

[Trocaria]

Regarding the "I don't feel pretty" comment at the Dec 23 party: I've seen mention in several books that JonBenet had not wanted to change clothes for the party. Patsy had insisted, so JonBenet put on a black velvet dress with short sleeves. Perhaps JonBenet "didn't feel pretty" because she'd been forced to change her clothes? Or perhaps during the mother-daughter dispute, Patsy said something along the lines of "well, don't get ugly about it!"

I well remember at that age all it took was having to wear some god-awful froo-froo dress I didn't like in the first place and bingo! I felt "ugly" because I stood out.
(This was back in the early '70's. Mom was dressing me like it was 1962, not 1972!)
Bottom line, it could well have been the clothing issue.

 

[Steely]

I well remember at that age all it took was having to wear some god-awful froo-froo dress I didn't like in the first place and bingo! I felt "ugly" because I stood out.
(This was back in the early '70's. Mom was dressing me like it was 1962, not 1972!)
Bottom line, it could well have been the clothing issue.

I agree. Plus, I imagine JB heard the adjective "pretty" all the time. "You are sooo pretty!" So when asked what was wrong...if she wasn't feeling good or was unhappy but struggling to describe her emotions..."I don't feel...." The word "pretty" could have popped into her mind. It was probably a word prominent in the vocabulary used by others to describe her.

 

[JMO8778]

the main significance I see, is that I think it was then that we can start to understand that the Stine's knew what was going on with JB and the R's,esp. Susan.
Whatever was happening that night,be it sexual abuse or Patsy doing corporal cleaning as punishment for JB's soiling,SS knew about it and covered for the R's by answering LE via intercom, and by not ever actually opening the door to them.
IDK who called 911,but I suspect it was someone who was fed up with the behavior and was making a threat,and JB's comment and crying on the stairs was in response to whatever occured that night.
I also suspect that whatever happened that night,may have been a forebearing (only with fatal consequence the second time) of the same incident that occured on the 25/26th.
I also think the Stines,knowing this had occured previously,were called by the R's and they came over that night to assist and support them,bf LE was called the next morning.
That is the reason the Stines,although they were said to be the last outside the family to see JB alive,and were some of their closest friends,were not called over the morning of the 26th.
JMO.

 

[Steely]

I also remember reading that JonBenet and Arianna Pugh put makeup on during the party but Patsy told JonBenet to take it off. Maybe JonBenet was upset that she couldn't wear makeup since she believed that makeup = pretty?

Or maybe makeup + pageant hair = pretty?

 

[JMO8778]

I agree. Plus, I imagine JB heard the adjective "pretty" all the time. "You are sooo pretty!" So when asked what was wrong...if she wasn't feeling good or was unhappy but struggling to describe her emotions..."I don't feel...." The word "pretty" could have popped into her mind. It was probably a word prominent in the vocabulary used by others to describe her.

I think her words were paraphrased by Thomas when he put them in his book,in order to not reveal evidence. this is JMO...
So who knows what she was describing,but if he felt it important enough to include in his book,ALONG with the fact that JB WAS CRYING,then it must lead to or be a part of, important evidence.(and don't forget that 911 was called,but hung up on,and SS,NOT Patsy nor JR,answered LE via intercom,never opening the door).
I suspect that either molestation or Patsy corporally cleaning her had something to do with her crying and comment.

 

[txsvicki]

I know it could happen, but just can't see Patsy violently cleaning JonBenet enough to cause penetration and tears. Whatever was used would have either been the paint stick or a finger, and there was the material thought to be from the paint stick inside and only one small bruise. Even if that was some sort of staging, there should be red rubbed raw areas on the outside from violent cleaning and more bruising IMO. Also, a mom who is tired of bedwetting would be more likely to give a child a wet washcloth and tell them to clean themselves. Even if JonBenet had soiled her pants Patsy could have ran a bath and had JonBenet wash her own self after first wiping as much as she could off her own self. They even had a shower and JonBenet could have been put into that to wash her own bottom. There wasn't any reason for Patsy to be cleaning her like a baby and doing it violently. I think the stains on the underwear were from JonBenet not being able to wipe herself well enough instead of soiling. She could have had intestinal issues, allergies to that mold in the basement, etc. as well causing loose stools.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

I think her words were paraphrased by Thomas when he put them in his book,in order to not reveal evidence. this is JMO...
So who knows what she was describing,but if he felt it important enough to include in his book,ALONG with the fact that JB WAS CRYING,then it must lead to or be a part of, important evidence.(and don't forget that 911 was called,but hung up on,and SS,NOT Patsy nor JR,answered LE via intercom,never opening the door).
I suspect that either molestation or Patsy corporally cleaning her had something to do with her crying and comment.

All we know is that a woman (Janet McReynolds?) saw JonBenet crying and asked her what was wrong. JonBenet replied that she didn't feel pretty. What did the woman say? I doubt she just got up and walked away. She probably asked her, "Why do you feel that way?" or just tried to comfort her. Why haven't we been told the entire conversation?

 

[txsvicki]

Or, could another child, maybe an older child at the party have upset JonBenet. Maybe even acted out sexually. I doubt if the children were that well supervised at all times since it seemed like the adults thought of nothing other than socializing.

 

[Toltec]

I remember the possible mis-dialing being discussed long, long ago, and it seems someone at the party said that maybe it was done while attempting to make an international call. I believe it was FW, but I don't remember if it was him who said it, or if it was simply speculation that it could have been him.

To call another country from the US, you first have to dial "011", then the country code, then the number.

Also, for perspective, I should point out to the younger folks here that this is long before cell phones were in as wide use as they are today. Not everyone walked around with a phone on their hip, or in their purse. So if you were away from home and had to make a call, you had to use someone else's phone (land-line we call it now, but then it was just "the phone"), or find something called a "pay phone".
.

Yes you are right OTG...Fleet was making an International call.... calling a Pharmaceautical Company, making sure some medicine his mother needed was being sent out to Aspen where Fleets mother was staying. She was ill at the time and could not make it to Fleets home for the Holidays.

There were lots of adults and children at the Dec 23d party. One can imagine what happens at partys...children playing, running around, girls in JonBenet's room, boys in Burke's room. Patsy was not able to keep tabs on so many children so perhaps someone took advantage of poor little JonBenet that night.

 

[MurriFlower]

All we know is that a woman (Janet McReynolds?) saw JonBenet crying and asked her what was wrong. JonBenet replied that she didn't feel pretty. What did the woman say? I doubt she just got up and walked away. She probably asked her, "Why do you feel that way?" or just tried to comfort her. Why haven't we been told the entire conversation?

This seems a big odd I agree. I'd be a bit wary about placing too much weight on a single comment reported by someone who could very well have been a suspect herself. Their behaviour (Santa & Mrs Santa) post murder was strange and some of the events and dates of significant incidents in their lives were 'interesting'. I'm not sure you've read the "coincidences" thread which mentions some of these. I'd be more interested in why Mrs Santa was wandering around the house alone.

 

[JMO8778]

This seems a big odd I agree. I'd be a bit wary about placing too much weight on a single comment reported by someone who could very well have been a suspect herself. Their behaviour (Santa & Mrs Santa) post murder was strange and some of the events and dates of significant incidents in their lives were 'interesting'. I'm not sure you've read the "coincidences" thread which mentions some of these. I'd be more interested in why Mrs Santa was wandering around the house alone.

who said she was wondering around the house alone?
the McReynolds have had their names dragged thru the mud unfairly enough;I'm surprised poor MckSanta didn't have a heart attack from it all,as he was,after all,recovering from heart bypass surg,a grueling thing in itself to recover from.The R's, along w ML and anyone else who has falsely accused him should be ashamed of themselves.

 

[MurriFlower]

who said she was wondering around the house alone?
the McReynolds have had their names dragged thru the mud unfairly enough;I'm surprised poor MckSanta didn't have a heart attack from it all,as he was,after all,recovering from heart bypass surg,a grueling thing in itself to recover from.The R's, along w ML and anyone else who has falsely accused him should be ashamed of themselves.

Perhaps, but I think I said the same thing about those who falsely accused the R's particularly PR, who was suffering from cancer. Shame, shame, shame.

 

[JMO8778]

All we know is that a woman (Janet McReynolds?) saw JonBenet crying and asked her what was wrong. JonBenet replied that she didn't feel pretty. What did the woman say? I doubt she just got up and walked away. She probably asked her, "Why do you feel that way?" or just tried to comfort her. Why haven't we been told the entire conversation?

I wonder that myself,and so can only presume that there may (and probably does),within that conversation,lie important clues.
Thomas did not indicate her as a suspect in any way though,leading me to believe she wasn't,and that she just happened to run across JB crying at the party.

 

[JMO8778]

Perhaps, but I think I said the same thing about those who falsely accused the R's particularly PR, who was suffering from cancer. Shame, shame, shame.

you have got to be kidding.the evidence is there,and it was those,(like Smit) who made more than sure that the cancer survivor and her cohorts got away with it clean.

 

[RTC]

Perhaps, but I think I said the same thing about those who falsely accused the R's particularly PR, who was suffering from cancer. Shame, shame, shame.

Lots of people deal with cancer, but it doesnt make them forget significant things in their life, like the facts around the death of their daughter's murder. One of my very best friends dealt with the same cancer but she stayed sharp as as ever, no way would she answer very important questions with probably , maybe, I think........
Murriflower, do you think PR lies get a pass because she had cancer?

 

[MurriFlower]

Lots of people deal with cancer, but it doesnt make them forget significant things in their life, like the facts around the death of their daughter's murder. One of my very best friends dealt with the same cancer but she stayed sharp as as ever, no way would she answer very important questions with probably , maybe, I think........
Murriflower, do you think PR lies get a pass because she had cancer?

No, I don't believe she did lie (definition already provided). Perhaps there were inconsistencies or errors in the telling and retelling of some parts of the story. Not significant, and probably no more than the rest of us. Those of us who aren't looking for these 'lies' as proof of their guilt. Remember, it was over a very long time, and PR was not well. Combine that with the PTSS she must have suffered in the wake of her daughter's murder. Then there was the stress as you said of her knowing that many people believed her guilty. This was particularly cruel I believe. Yes, lots of people deal with cancer, but she did have this murder to deal with as well and that couldn't have been easy.

 

[DeeDee249]

Perhaps, but I think I said the same thing about those who falsely accused the R's particularly PR, who was suffering from cancer. Shame, shame, shame.

We don't really know if she was "falsely accused", though, do we?

Cancer is tragic. So is the murder of a child. They are not mutually exclusive. Patsy's cancer (and her death from it) are no more or less tragic because she had been suspected of being involved in her daughter's murder. There are what many feel are legitimate reasons why they suspect her. Her cancer doesn't give her (or anyone else) a pass, as far as murder is concerned. They are separate issues.
If there were a cancer-stricken intruder as a viable suspect, I would feel the same way. One has nothing to do with the other. There should be no shame attached. The shame is not ours. The shame belongs to the killer, whoever that may be.

 

[Agatha_C]

We don't really know if she was "falsely accused", though, do we?

Cancer is tragic. So is the murder of a child. They are not mutually exclusive. Patsy's cancer (and her death from it) are no more or less tragic because she had been suspected of being involved in her daughter's murder. There are what many feel are legitimate reasons why they suspect her. Her cancer doesn't give her (or anyone else) a pass, as far as murder is concerned. They are separate issues.
If there were a cancer-stricken intruder as a viable suspect, I would feel the same way. One has nothing to do with the other. There should be no shame attached. The shame is not ours. The shame belongs to the killer, whoever that may be.

DeeDee to quote the title of my favorite childhood movie....

Baby, Take a Bow....... :takeabow:

 

[MurriFlower]

We don't really know if she was "falsely accused", though, do we?

Cancer is tragic. So is the murder of a child. They are not mutually exclusive. Patsy's cancer (and her death from it) are no more or less tragic because she had been suspected of being involved in her daughter's murder. There are what many feel are legitimate reasons why they suspect her. Her cancer doesn't give her (or anyone else) a pass, as far as murder is concerned. They are separate issues.
If there were a cancer-stricken intruder as a viable suspect, I would feel the same way. One has nothing to do with the other. There should be no shame attached. The shame is not ours. The shame belongs to the killer, whoever that may be.

I was responding to RTC's assertion that the stress of being suspected lead to the hastening of McSanta's death. I think PR deserves at least as much compassion (unless you think she did it of course!).

 

[DeeDee249]

I was responding to RTC's assertion that the stress of being suspected lead to the hastening of McSanta's death. I think PR deserves at least as much compassion (unless you think she did it of course!).

Even if I thought Patsy did it, I'd still (and I do) have compassion for her suffering. Ovarian cancer is horrible. I've seen it in my own family (and it was a 21-year old). Patsy is a tragic figure, to me.
As I said in my other post, the tragedy of cancer and the tragedy of child murder have nothing to do with one another. Suffering from cancer does not make you less guilty if you ARE guilty. There is no shame in suspecting a cancer sufferer of murder. The shame is the murderer's.