The Springfield Three--missing since June 1992 - #4

[wfgodot]

Thanks a bunch, Kathee. I hadn't seen it yet. You did a great job, btw!

 

[Kathee]

As I understand it only one spot on the ground floor in that large garage was scanned. Kathee, correct me if I am wrong on that. If the entire ground floor had been scanned and only that one spot produced any anomalies then I might feel a little bit differently. But what if the entire ground floor was scanned and produced maybe 4-5-6 different spots or more that showed anomalies; would you feel any differently then? The more spots that produce anomalies the more it would tend to discredit the theory that the 3MW are buried under the ramp, and support the idea that it is likely just tree roots. And we simply don't know how many more anomalies that we might find there by scanning the entire ground floor.

The entire parking garage was scanned the first time. I was only interested in the area under the ramp when Norland did the second scan as that is the ONLY place in the garage where there were anomalies.

The area that became the paking garage was totally excavated as it had been a dump for years. The took out t.v.'s, washers, etc. and then backfilled it.

 

[Hurricane]

The entire parking garage was scanned the first time. I was only interested in the area under the ramp when Norland did the second scan as that is the ONLY place in the garage where there were anomalies.

The area that became the paking garage was totally excavated as it had been a dump for years. The took out t.v.'s, washers, etc. and then backfilled it.

I would feel better if it had been Norland who scanned the entire garage floor and not Tim Grey. But that's hindsight.

I know there was a lot of stuff dumped there but I remember that area as also being somewhat swampy and sometimes holding water. There were trees and big thick vines growing in there as well.

 

[pittsburghgirl]

Well, that makes sense. If the first scan showed nothing, why re-scan? I actually like it that two different people did the scans, and the second is so nationally reputable.

 

[Luzer]

I happened onto your post from 2009 regarding Gerald Carnahan and wanted to ask if you would consider to fleshing this out about him. I can't say I had heard or read this (or had forgotten) before but it in no way surprises me. I find myself thinking he is climbing up the suspect list now that I am more intrigued than ever over the grave robbing business. There may be a connection of sorts.

I apologize for taking so long to reply. It has been so long I no longer remember all of the specifics, but I believe I heard three different stories of women being followed while driving. One did describe the same kind of truck Carnahan drove at the time Jackie was found murdered. The truck with a stocky dark-haired man followed her down 14, then to a side road and on to her home. She pulled into the driveway, and the truck came in right behind her. She opened the garage door and ran in there and called family to help her. He didn't try to force himself into the house and left before anyone got there. That was before 1990. I heard a few more stories along that line in the mid 1990's as well.

 

[Missouri Mule]

I apologize for taking so long to reply. It has been so long I no longer remember all of the specifics, but I believe I heard three different stories of women being followed while driving. One did describe the same kind of truck Carnahan drove at the time Jackie was found murdered. The truck with a stocky dark-haired man followed her down 14, then to a side road and on to her home. She pulled into the driveway, and the truck came in right behind her. She opened the garage door and ran in there and called family to help her. He didn't try to force himself into the house and left before anyone got there. That was before 1990. I heard a few more stories along that line in the mid 1990's as well.

Thank you so much. Do you recall if that was on the way to Sparta or did it go west from Nixa toward Clever? As I recall, Carnahan was dark haired and it is debatable whether he could be referred to as stocky at that time although he is now. In any event that is quite interesting. Thanks again!

 

[_mb_]

I apologize for taking so long to reply. It has been so long I no longer remember all of the specifics, but I believe I heard three different stories of women being followed while driving. One did describe the same kind of truck Carnahan drove at the time Jackie was found murdered. The truck with a stocky dark-haired man followed her down 14, then to a side road and on to her home. She pulled into the driveway, and the truck came in right behind her. She opened the garage door and ran in there and called family to help her. He didn't try to force himself into the house and left before anyone got there. That was before 1990. I heard a few more stories along that line in the mid 1990's as well.

I remember hearing about someone getting "bumped" from behind in the early to mid-90s, the woman driving drove to a gas station or some other populated, lit area but the vehicle behind her that had been following her wouldn't stop. It was drilled into my head NOT to stop on the side of the road in a minor fender bender because of these incidents.

I want to say the above incident happened around Strafford. Might have to research this tonight.

 

[Luzer]

The lady I spoke of was going toward Nixa but she lived outside of the city limits. She worked in Springfield and was driving home from work when she was followed. She did not report the incident to the police, just family members.

 

[CanManEh]

I watched something was it a dissapeared show on this case or maybe a youtube documentry something i just forget now but what i seen was that the police werent all that adversed to digging up that spot but its the spot itself that is causing the problem as it is right beside or now has a support beam for the parking garage or whatever is above it and digging it up could stress to the other coloums and maybe even colapse .

 

[bystander77]

A bit of a ramble, but a few thoughts of mine:

I have read up a lot on this story and actually got to drive by 1717 E Delmar recently for the first time. Based on what I saw in the area (assuming some things have remained the same) I was surprised to see all of the large homes in the neighborhood, dwarfing 1717.

I found some really interesting info, which may be a bunch of garbage, but worth a dialogue nonetheless. What I read moves Carnahan up the list of suspects for me.

Does anyone know if Carnahan or Cox was a client of Levitt's?
Also, can anyone speak about Carnahan's accomplice in the failed kidnapping attempt in Springfield?

For Christ's sake, just core the damn garage. Do it on a weekend. Who cares if it's unauthorized. I really doubt there's anything there, but there's a chance the PD is stalling on this for a good reason. Why not just go in and do it. There's no legitimate reason to not do it, especially since people here are willing to bear the costs of it.
I wish a crew would just go out and do it on a day, at a time when no one may be looking, or at least a window exists such that it could be done before it could be stopped..

I still have an unknown peer or friend / family friend high on the list of suspects.

As far as Janelle's statements go: She had never been to the home, but opened the door and walked into the home on Sunday morning? Who does this? Also, I wrestle with her description of the dog acting strange.... not saying she's guilty of anything... the details just don't sit well with me.

Why would the PD ask for dental records after a person is missing for 24 hours? That seems really strange...

The fact that Cox worked with Stacy's Dad is interesting too. While he may not have been stalking her, who's to say he didn't run into them somewhere... either in public, or at the Levitt house, and was able to overcome any doubts, because Stacy and possibly Sherril knew him?
The fact that he had his alibi lie on his behalf is chilling to me. He's also capable of pulling it off in my opinion, as he was trained as a Ranger.

When and where is believed to be the last place they were seen alive? Was it leaving Janelle Kirby's? About them being at George's, the waitress that said she saw them there.. had she served them before? If so, then the tip, imho, is credible...

I still don't give much credence to the van story. It was just way too unique in my opinion to not be noticed and picked up on. Also, I'm baffled as to how Janis has no idea what was said on the erased message. I remember phone bills from the early 90's.. full of detail, listing every call and the time of each call. The phone records, as MM has often mentioned, should shed light on some important questions.


Why in God's name doesn't the SPFD PD let some info out to spike interest and perhaps generate some new leads... 20 years later, their efforts haven't yielded much.

sorry this message is a bit scattered, but it's late! I'd be interested to learn more if there's answers or opposing views to my thoughts.

 

[bystander77]

Quote:
The area that became the paking garage was totally excavated as it had been a dump for years. The took out t.v.'s, washers, etc. and then backfilled it.[/QUOTE]

This, if true as you have described, substantially decreases the possibility of tree roots, etc as the cause the anomolies... imho, based on what I know....

Core baby, CORE!

 

[bystander77]

So, I have been trying to refresh my memory on this case and stumbled across something that, for my money, is the biggest development in the case. I'm hoping someone can help me discredit this or steer me to where I can find the articles.

In post 243, Hurricane noted:

Garrison told police a friend had confessed to killing the three women during a drunken party. He told police information unknown to the public that led investigators to serve three search warrants at two sites in western Webster County; that they would find the women’s bodies and clues about their abduction and deaths.He also said a moss green van believed used to take the women would be found about 12 miles away, south of Fordland................
..............
----------------Snip-------------
While the 100+ or so hours I have sunk into learning about this case pales in comparison to the rest of the crowd here, this, to me is earth shattering.

To suggest he knew information unknown to the public is a pretty good indication he was there or is close to the person(s) that were. I doubt he guessed on something and managed to be lucky, especially by the way the investigators spoke and acted on what he had said.

If anyone knows or has a copy of the full article with this info, I'd be grateful to see it. If anyone can help shoot holes in this thought, please do.

Does anyone else see significance in this or am I overdoing it?

 

[Missouri Mule]

I think you will have to go to the archives at the Springfield City Library to read the actual newspaper. It is my understanding that the Springfield News-Leader did not archive its own news articles until 1999.

If you could contact one of the reporters who have covered this case you might be able to get clarification of whether this led anywhere. Garrison is a bit of a mystery man to my way of thinking. The actual news articles from 1995 during his rape trial raise more questions than answers. Among the most bizarre incidents was when a "biker" type came to his attorney's office to threaten him and his family. The court was in a state of disarray but in the end he was found guilty and sentenced to 79 years in prison. When it was over his response was "he didn't know what to think" and he now sits mum in his prison cell, refusing to entertain visitors.

If you will read the very first thread of this case a prolific poster discusses this case and obliquely refers to Garrison, obviously having some extensive knowledge of the case, and states that nothing that Garrison ever produced actually proved out.

I'll contact one of the reporters and see if she can shed some light on your question. I wouldn't get my hopes up however. To this day I've never seen or heard a reliable and provable motive put forth. And depending on who one chooses to believe, some detective(s) know exactly what happened while others claim no one knows squat.

 

[bystander77]

After reading a ton into this thread and being drawn into it more and more, I have a few questions I was hoping someone might know the answer to.

Does anyone know what ever became of the vehicle stolen from the neighbor of Stacy McCall, a classmate of hers as well? I have seen various snips of it and the police mentioned it was stolen, I believe, the night of the disappearance. I wonder about the possibility that it WAS used or damaged/contaminated in some way and was tied to the case... Does anyone know anything about the classmate who owned this car?

Has everyone seen this story? I just found it for the first time myself.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gHUqa7aZnE

The way Janelle Kirby speaks to the reporter and the camera, to me, is very troubling. Referring to Suzie as "the other girl" is way off target. I believe in my research, I had read Kirby quoted as saying they were all friends at some times and then at others, that Suzie wasn't much of a friend. She would certainly be a person who could gain access to the home at delmar, after the girls were ready for bed. In fact, she is possibly one of the least harmless to the Stacy and Suzie after the party. She could've easily gained entry by saying something was forgotten at her home, or by saying that she changed her mind and was going to spend the night at the Levitt Home. The turn of events that had the girls leave the Kirby home and go to Sherill's also is a bit odd. They didn't realize there wasn't enough space? There's ALWAYS enough space for friends. I wonder if they even arrived at the Kirby home. It's regrettable that LE didn't offer immunity for underage drinking to all the kids at the graduation party the girls can last, in my mind, be credibly seen at.
She, as we all know, married the b/f she was with, at the scene of the crime the morning after. I wonder what he was doing that night or what his alibi is. I know secondhand of a major crime that was commited by one spouse (never caught, fooled LE 100%), in front of another (who had no idea it was going to happen) the marriage remained in tact for years after it, but then crumbled. I know the innocent spouse will never speak of it, for fear of retaliation. If anyone wants the details, pm me.. just don't want to air it out publicly.
Perhaps a ruse was used, but not by cox.

In my younger years, when people in their teens experienced a major crisis or death of a peer, the person injured or deceased, was always spoken of as EVERYONE's friend, even in the case of suicides. I'm baffled as to her indifference. Even people that were not liked, were known as everyone's friend in death.

Sometimes, something hiding in plain sight is the toughest to find. I'm sure everyone remembers the Shawn Hornbeck case. He was hidden, in plain sight for 4+ years, just 30-50 miles away from where he was abducted. He was brainwashed, and obeyed Michael Devlin when he had many opportunities to escape while alone. What broke the case was when Devlin abducted another boy, and police got one phenomenal tip that ended up breaking the case open.
Some interesting things about the case is that no one had seen the abduction or had any idea who the perp was. With that being said, I heard so many stories about what allegedly happened to him. One involved a meth runner hitting him while he rode his bike.. and having to take him and the bike and make them disappear. He was missing for 4+ years.. and was in the same region the entire time. So many sensational theories swirled, as they do in this case.
Back onto my suspicions with Kirby:
1. The last KNOWN person to see Suzie and Stacy
2. Mother is her Alibi, to me her account is somewhat suspect
3. Odd statements (what little we have to go on)
4. First KNOWN person at the crime scene. Walked into a home she had never been in! Referred to Suziee as "the other girl" but was comfortable to let herself into the home?
5. Actions may have been suspicious on Sunday morning
6. Never contacted the police, despite serious signs of trouble. Janis was the first one to contact the police and, if I'm not mistaken, tracked Janelle down, as opposed to her contacting the McCall's, which would seem logical.

So many things in this case are based directly off of statements she has made to LE. Where they were going, what they were doing, everything about the Levitt house. She's highly inconsistent by my opinion.
I really think she knows a lot more than she has shared. Perhaps she's not guilty of anything and is a victim in some way too.

Sorry if I'm soaking up too much space in this thread... it really pulls me in... I'll back off for awhile... lastly, anyone know where tangledweb went? It seems he/she is inactive... too bad.

 

[irisheyesofblue]

I really hope you don't back off Bystander because I like the fresh set of eyes on this case. You bring up lots of questions I have too. I too am new to really looking at this case even though I have known about it for years. I feel sometimes it is that fresh set of eyes that points out an obvious thing that was over looked or forgotten so thank you.

 

[wfgodot]

Welcome to WS, irisheyesofblue!

 

[pittsburghgirl]

Bystander, I have many of the same questions, as well. Some of the statements in the media I take with a grain of salt because they are coming through a third party. But I do not get why two kids a day out of high school would let themselves into someone else's house, for any reason. And especiallyif the relationship was not super close. And answering the phone? Moving things around? Unheard of. We've been over this ground and people disagreed with me before. It's also worth noting that LE has never indicated they were looking at Janelle and her boyfriend. But I've never been comfortable with the girls needing to leave Janelle's house, with the clean-up of the broken globe, with Janelle and Mike going in, moving thngs, answering the phone, and then just going ahead to the water park. What was the hurry? Why not call the McCalls and then start looking around and making calls toother people? The cars were in the driveway--where could they have gone? Did they leave a note for Suzie and Stacy? My guess is that there is something about that whole situation that we don't know.

 

[monkeymann]

I couldn't agree more with the whole Janelle issue. It was said that the girls had already had a "Pallet" laid out for them in anticipation of them staying at the Kirby house.

Then they get there, and all of a sudden they're told there is really not enough room due to family staying at the house......Something that should have already been sorted out way way earlier.....especially if they had laid a "Pallet" out for the girls. I would say that If they went the to trouble of laying a "Pallet" out for the girls, than the whole family staying in the house was already known because they went a head an laid out a "Pallet" for the girls, knowing full well how much family they had in the house.
So long story short, I have always felt that whole story has some issues that need sorting out.

I also have a problem with Janelle and the way she reacted on the KOLR 10 interview tape. I watched the tape over and over and over until I was practically cross eyed. In summary, from what I have seen in the KOLR 10 interview tape, there is a lot of "Strange" and possibly "Telling" body movement, expressions, answers, small subtleties in facial expressions, tone....etc.

Also I find there actions the next morning out of place too. Going to Sherrill & Susie's house, which she had never been to, and just letting herself into the house....and then proceeding to walk all through the house. Seems far too familiar to me!

Then there is the call Jannelle takes from some obscene caller at the Levitt home that morning....or at some point.....But she doesn't remember what the guy said.

Then there is Janis McCall listening to the message on the machine...."Accidentally Erasing" it......But yet she didn't "Remember" what the message said.

I've always said that Grave Robbers provided the most logical motive. Graduation Night would have provided the opportunity.

People have definitely been killed for less. And if two young men are potentially looking at a lengthy stay in Prison.....of which NEITHER of them had ever been to prison.....its not too much of a stretch to say that they were in "Self Preservation Mode" so to speak. If they got rid of their presumed witnesses, then they won't have to spend god knows how much time in prison as some big buck's new cell mate toy.......get where I'm going with that.

I mean, all of the Grave Robbers had Crap for alibis if I'm correct.....right?

And.....two of the Grave Robbers flee out of state shortly after the women's disappearance.

Plus you have one of the Genius's making a statement, "I hope those *****es are dead"

You also have Janelle's boyfriend Mike making some statement if I'm correct to the effect, "I hope they find those women before something bad happens to them".....strange.

Then you have Janelle crying her eyes out in the back of her boyfriend Mikes car after they can't locate the women....prior to she and Mike going to the water slide together.

I just fully feel that this case is not as far flung crazy as we all have learned to believe that it is.

Keep it Simple Stupid. It could have been just that simple if the crime scene hadn't been corrupted by everyone going traipsing through the house.....not messing with things....IE. erasing a answering machine message that might have had some pertinence to the case

 

[Trooogrit]

Bystander, I have many of the same questions, as well. Some of the statements in the media I take with a grain of salt because they are coming through a third party. But I do not get why two kids a day out of high school would let themselves into someone else's house, for any reason. And especiallyif the relationship was not super close.

Well the relationship was closer than the media made it sound apparently, these girls had known each other all there lives. Walking into each others houses especially if you have plans for the day is not uncommon. You ever knock and open the door? hello? Hello? you ready yet? I know people in that group of friends and they did not find this unsual.

And answering the phone? Moving things around? Unheard of. We've been over this ground and people disagreed with me before. It's also worth noting that LE has never indicated they were looking at Janelle and her boyfriend. But I've never been comfortable with the girls needing to leave Janelle's house Would you sleep on a pallet or drive 10 minutes and sleep on a waterbed?
with the clean-up of the broken globe, with Janelle and Mike going in, moving thngs, answering the phone, and then just going ahead to the water park. What was the hurry? Why not call the McCalls and then start looking around and making calls toother people? The cars were in the driveway--where could they have gone? Did they leave a note for Suzie and Stacy? My guess is that there is something about that whole situation that we don't know..

Pretty sure that most of those details are covered somewhere in the threads, but the exact plan for the day has never been discussed, which would shed light on things.

 

[Trooogrit]

I couldn't agree more with the whole Janelle issue. It was said that the girls had already had a "Pallet" laid out for them in anticipation of them staying at the Kirby house.

Then they get there, and all of a sudden they're told there is really not enough room due to family staying at the house......Something that should have already been sorted out way way earlier.....especially if they had laid a "Pallet" out for the girls. I would say that If they went the to trouble of laying a "Pallet" out for the girls, than the whole family staying in the house was already known because they went a head an laid out a "Pallet" for the girls, knowing full well how much family they had in the house.
So long story short, I have always felt that whole story has some issues that need sorting out.

I also have a problem with Janelle and the way she reacted on the KOLR 10 interview tape. I watched the tape over and over and over until I was practically cross eyed. In summary, from what I have seen in the KOLR 10 interview tape, there is a lot of "Strange" and possibly "Telling" body movement, expressions, answers, small subtleties in facial expressions, tone....etc.

Also I find there actions the next morning out of place too. Going to Sherrill & Susie's house, which she had never been to, and just letting herself into the house....and then proceeding to walk all through the house. Seems far too familiar to me!

Then there is the call Jannelle takes from some obscene caller at the Levitt home that morning....or at some point.....But she doesn't remember what the guy said. It was not stated that she did not know what the obscene caller said.

Then there is Janis McCall listening to the message on the machine...."Accidentally Erasing" it......But yet she didn't "Remember" what the message said. She does not remember what someone elses message was? It was not obscene at so why would it be rellevent? She didnt remember after 18 years, I do not know if that refers to 1992.

I've always said that Grave Robbers provided the most logical motive. Graduation Night would have provided the opportunity.

Yes the graverobbers provide the most logical motive, and the most obvious motive. The very first place the police looked as a matter of fact and not one shred of evidence to prove that they were involved in this. They were able to pass polygraphs, were surveiled had alibis. In all these years no one has said they were told by one of them that they did this crime. I think that people forget that the grave robbing incident was three months before this crime. If the opportunity was needed to get the only person that could hurt them "Suzie" they could have done this at any time before that night. Why do it at her house? Eliminating Suzie didnt do anything for them, the pawn shop called the police with the evidence. Those charges were not gonna be dropped and were not. It is likely these guys had talked to attorneys and knew what to expect before this crime occurred.

People have definitely been killed for less. And if two young men are potentially looking at a lengthy stay in Prison.....of which NEITHER of them had ever been to prison.....its not too much of a stretch to say that they were in "Self Preservation Mode" so to speak. If they got rid of their presumed witnesses, then they won't have to spend god knows how much time in prison as some big buck's new cell mate toy.......get where I'm going with that.

I mean, all of the Grave Robbers had Crap for alibis if I'm correct.....right?

And.....two of the Grave Robbers flee out of state shortly after the women's disappearance.
If you thought you would be framed for a murder you didnt commit would you skip town? They were the only suspects on the board, innocent or not it did not matter at that point. I sense a fear


Plus you have one of the Genius's making a statement, "I hope those *****es are dead"

The disagreement with the officer would be interesting to hear, sounds as though he was pushed to anger somehow. If not you are correct a very stupid statement.

You also have Janelle's boyfriend Mike making some statement if I'm correct to the effect, "I hope they find those women before something bad happens to them".....strange.

Wrong guy, Reclas brother is who you are thinking of

Then you have Janelle crying her eyes out in the back of her boyfriend Mikes car after they can't locate the women....prior to she and Mike going to the water slide together.

I just fully feel that this case is not as far flung crazy as we all have learned to believe that it is.

Keep it Simple Stupid. It could have been just that simple if the crime scene hadn't been corrupted by everyone going traipsing through the house.....not messing with things....IE. erasing a answering machine message that might have had some pertinence to the case

You may be right, I will be suprised if it was the likely suspects though.