Theories On What Happened to Caylee Part #6 (New Smoking Gun Theories for DP)

[countzero]

There is a lot of computer/cell phone forensic evidence, lots of scientific evidence and lots of circumstantial evidence.

What we don't have is a body found sooner to prove murder, a witness or a confession.

BTW....i always thought it was strange the during the act of killing, bagging up the body, driving around with it for a few days, borrowing items like shovels, gas and then disposing of the body that NOT ONE person saw her do any of these things. The only eyewitness to any of the above, I think, is the neighbor who saw her uncharacteristically back the car into the garage.

How could she have done all of this and not one single person saw any of it?

She had grown up in that neighborhood. People living there would not think anything different was going on with her comings and goings at all hours. No one is going to question that much less suspect a murder driving around, living next or close to them. My neighbors don't question my coming and going anymore than I question theirs. We do however like each other and get along well unlike the A clan.

 

[Mystic]

The "smoking gun " I am hoping for:
I don't think I have seen a report on the duct tape yet. We have heard a few things,but they didn't say there were NO prints! I believe we heard that there were no prints from Cindy, George or Lee (and I don't know who said that). I don't think they said anything about KC. So, i am hoping they do have her prints on the tape.
Has anyone seen a duct tape report?
Katharine

Yes Kathy, your right from wha I recall. That was in one of the doc dumps. KC's prints were not eliminated nor mentioned. So I'm wondering if that's one of the smoking guns!

 

[coloradoteacher]

I don't think there is a smoking gun left to be "unveiled" in this case. This case is loaded with circumstantial evidence, much more so than other DP cases I have studied like Scott Peterson and Darlie Routier.
What we have to remember is that the case will have two separate parts, which the jury, who will all admit to being able to give the dealth penalty in jury selection will have to consider separately. They may not think of the DP when deciding on guilt and so on.
For the guilt phase, so far what I have seen from the defense is that they will try to create reasonable doubt using it could have been an accident theory. There are a few reasons this will not work- 1. CA will not admit to it being an accident so the jury will wonder why the defense is hinting at an accident yet the defendant will not confirm this. She also cannot take the stand, so how they would prove this is beyond me. 2. if it were an accident, in most jurisdictions, child abuse resulting in death, which negligence (pool accident) or reckless endangerment (chloroform in the trunk) would count as, carries the same sentencing and weight as first degree murder, so the SA can turn around and change the charges to get her there. The defense is backed into a hole with the accident theory as well as most of their theories. I am will to predict a guilty verdict.
Next is the penalty phase, where two factors are addressed: aggravating factors and mitigating factors. When the SA was thinking about whether or not to persue the DP, I am sure they looked at this. The aggravating factors are monumental- the 31 days, the duct tape, the lies to police, the riding around with the body in her car, on and on and on. Quite a large amount- (Compare to other DP cases like Scott Peterson!) But the mitigating circumstances- usually family and friends are quite low for casey. I don't think there are any friends will testify for her and her family has pretty much made their names and opinions mud with the public and any possible jury.
The final factor could have been the obstinant remarks by the family at the memorial or their behavior at the ZFG deposition. Why even worry about their feelings or think they can bring on mitigating factors.
If I were the SA, I would think this is a slam dunk case and the DP will follow.
They had to look at those pictures we have been shielded from. I think they believe that the only justice for Caylee would be in the DP.
JMHO.

 

[Jolynna]

Putting duct tape over Caylee's mouth and nose in response to seeing fluid leaking is not a possibility, IMO.

By the time fluid started leaking, decomposition would be underway. The fluid coming out of the mouth is part of the putrefaction process which comes after the initial muscle relaxation which happens immediately at death and rigor mortis.

The autopsy report said the duct taping clearly happened before decomposition. The word clearly and the fact that Caylee's death was ruled a "homicide with death due to undetermined causes" instead of just "undetermined" says it all.

Post Mortem changes and time of death:

http://www.deathreference.com/Py-Se/Rigor-Mortis-and-Other-Postmortem-Changes.html
http://www.searchdogs.org/articles/Postmortem Changes.pdf


IMO

 

[beach]

I don't think there is a smoking gun left to be "unveiled" in this case. This case is loaded with circumstantial evidence, much more so than other DP cases I have studied like Scott Peterson and Darlie Routier.
What we have to remember is that the case will have two separate parts, which the jury, who will all admit to being able to give the dealth penalty in jury selection will have to consider separately. They may not think of the DP when deciding on guilt and so on.
For the guilt phase, so far what I have seen from the defense is that they will try to create reasonable doubt using it could have been an accident theory. There are a few reasons this will not work- 1. CA will not admit to it being an accident so the jury will wonder why the defense is hinting at an accident yet the defendant will not confirm this. She also cannot take the stand, so how they would prove this is beyond me. 2. if it were an accident, in most jurisdictions, child abuse resulting in death, which negligence (pool accident) or reckless endangerment (chloroform in the trunk) would count as, carries the same sentencing and weight as first degree murder, so the SA can turn around and change the charges to get her there. The defense is backed into a hole with the accident theory as well as most of their theories. I am will to predict a guilty verdict.
Next is the penalty phase, where two factors are addressed: aggravating factors and mitigating factors. When the SA was thinking about whether or not to persue the DP, I am sure they looked at this. The aggravating factors are monumental- the 31 days, the duct tape, the lies to police, the riding around with the body in her car, on and on and on. Quite a large amount- (Compare to other DP cases like Scott Peterson!) But the mitigating circumstances- usually family and friends are quite low for casey. I don't think there are any friends will testify for her and her family has pretty much made their names and opinions mud with the public and any possible jury.
The final factor could have been the obstinant remarks by the family at the memorial or their behavior at the ZFG deposition. Why even worry about their feelings or think they can bring on mitigating factors.
If I were the SA, I would think this is a slam dunk case and the DP will follow.
They had to look at those pictures we have been shielded from. I think they believe that the only justice for Caylee would be in the DP.
JMHO.

:clap: Great post!!! very well said

 

[kaRN]

I think the smoking gun will come from evidence as yet unseen. An email from Cindy to Casey dated in July asking where the laundry bag is. The Anthony dog hairs found on the Winnie the Pooh blanket, Caylees shirt etc. The diaper she was wearing hasn't been discussed at all and disposable diapers do not biodegrate so that's a key piece of information.

There's no way LE is just giving away their hand to satisfy the Sunshine Laws. I refuse to believe that.

 

[Mystic]

I honestly don't think Casey knew or thought about decomp and I'm of the opinion that she definately planned this. In the tattoo thread a tattoo artist mentioned he uses chloroform to clean his instruments (I dont' know how to link that here). I think thats a pretty good lead on how she may have knocked out Caylee, then duct taped her. I also don't think she was in a rage when she did it. Thus no problem in using sissors to cut the duct tape. She obviously was not stagging a kidnapping... she never reported her missing nor 'ever' planned too imo. And that time/space she was putting between Caylee's death & no one knowing Caylee was missing is a smoking gun in and of itself. She never (from what we know) told a soul Caylee was missing. The kidnapping story only came out of her when CA found her & she had to come up with the her #1 fall-back.. the nanny has her. jmo

 

[Kathy1964]

Given the facts so far that KC thinks in 10 minute spans and isn't exactly, heck she didn't bother to dump the clean up evidence in separate locations, I feel the smoking gun will be KC's DNA on the duct tape.

We only were given the FBI report that no finger prints were found. Nothing about DNA from KC or the A clan was disclosed. If there was, I missed in reading with tears in the latest doc dump.

Great thread by the way.

bolded by me

Can you give me a link to the info "no fingerprints were found"? I missed that.
Thanks,
Katharine

 

[cecybeans]

Pulling this over from the Duct Tape thread http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79908&page=28
Originally Posted by FairNBalanced View Post

I can post pics now! Not sure I did this right, but as I said in another post...if WE have Henkel duct tape, it must be VERY common LOL We live 30 minutes from the Anthony's...who knows...we may even shop at the same Home Depot. IMO, There is no way anyone is tearing this tape with their bare hands or teeth. Need scissors or a knife...it's really tough.
............................................................................................

With that said, there is no way she placed that tape on a wiggling, screaming, live kid, NO way! Caylee must have been knocked out with something (cold medicine or something) that would leave no traces. If she was alive she most certainly was not awake when KC put that tape on her head and mouth. JMHO

Please forgive me for not looking this up right now, but didn't some poster persuasively argue recently that this type of duct tape is NOT very common and is either limited in distribution amount or area? I think the fact that this may be less common than we thought will definitely be a boon to the prosecution.

BTW, I know what you mean about being creeped out about shopping at home improvements stores. I can't go into the Lowe's anymore that is close to Drew Peterson's house because I'm afraid I'm gonna see a giant blue plastic barrel display or something and just totally freeze and pee my pants or something equally humiliating.

 

[LaLaw2000]

Well, we do not know if there were any fingerprints found on anything at the dump site. There could have possibly been and maybe we do not know about it. All of the forensics were not in at the time of the autopsy report, IMO.

Probably not one smoking gun, IMO, but overwhelming evidence in the totality!

 

[ShadowGal]

Coming in late to thread, my apologies if this has been discussed.

Was talking to my mom on the phone earlier about this. What about a recovered cell phone with incriminating messages? I have searched the forums for missing cell phone posts and couldn't come up with any...can not for the life of me remember what happened to the phone with the missing sim card, etc....what if KC carried another phone that was dropped at the Suburban site in a panic and later recovered...either by one of the PI's or by LE...

 

[momtective]

Please forgive me for not looking this up right now, but didn't some poster persuasively argue recently that this type of duct tape is NOT very common and is either limited in distribution amount or area? I think the fact that this may be less common than we thought will definitely be a boon to the prosecution.

BTW, I know what you mean about being creeped out about shopping at home improvements stores. I can't go into the Lowe's anymore that is close to Drew Peterson's house because I'm afraid I'm gonna see a giant blue plastic barrel display or something and just totally freeze and pee my pants or something equally humiliating.

Yes, the conversation I believe started with this post [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3807564&postcount=674"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - The Duct Tape Match[/ame]
Concerned Papa actually emailed the the Henkel Corp. about the duct tape.

 

[MidAtlanticNative]

cecybeans, I mainly agree with you with the exception of the duct tape. I don't have the reports handy, but I do recall that the tape wasn't wrapped totally around the skull. There were pieces of duct tape which went across the face and was attatched to the hair on either side.

I believe the mass of hair originated with the pony tail Caylee usually wore.

note: This may belong on a different thread; if so, please relocate. Thanks!

(bold mine)

If the tape wasn't wound around Caylee's head, and if Caylee's hair was in a ponytail, how did so much hair (enough to secure the mandible in place post-decomposition) get stuck to the tape? I'm running the scenario in my mind and can't get a visualization.

Also, let's assume Caylee's hair was loose (no elastics or barrettes): in this case, wouldn't Caylee have to have been in an upright position (maybe strapped in her car seat?), rather than lying down, for that much hair to get caught in the tape? You WSers with long hair: don't you find that when you're lying down, your hair falls away from your face?

I need to go back and read the autopsy docs again - I'm just not able to figure this one out. I'd love some feedback here if you all have any to offer.

 

[countzero]

Given the facts so far that KC thinks in 10 minute spans and isn't exactly, heck she didn't bother to dump the clean up evidence in separate locations, I feel the smoking gun will be KC's DNA on the plastic black bags Caylee was shoved into.

We only were given the FBI report that no finger prints were found. Nothing about DNA from KC or the A clan was disclosed. If there was, I missed in reading with tears in the latest doc dump.

Great thread by the way.

bolded by me

Can you give me a link to the info "no fingerprints were found"? I missed that.
Thanks,
Katharine

Hi Katharine, I quoted myself above because I made an edit to my post. I cannot find the specific page so as to not start rumors I did an edit to my post.

There is in the FBI doc released Friday a report about the black bags not having prints.

Sorry for the confusion, but I will still be looking for the duct tape report.

http://www.clickorlando.com/download/2009/0619/19802052.pdf

page 6602

 

[Searchfortruth]

I think the smoking gun will come from evidence as yet unseen. An email from Cindy to Casey dated in July asking where the laundry bag is. The Anthony dog hairs found on the Winnie the Pooh blanket, Caylees shirt etc. The diaper she was wearing hasn't been discussed at all and disposable diapers do not biodegrate so that's a key piece of information.

There's no way LE is just giving away their hand to satisfy the Sunshine Laws. I refuse to believe that.

I SO agree ! Much more to come ! :clap:

 

[Bittiness39]

There has to be something found by LE at the site...that didn't need to go through rounds of tests for them to automatically go straight to the A's house. JMO. I am not saying as a juror I need a smoking gun or bombshell evidence or whatever. I am saying it fits that LE id'd something at the scene that wasn't automatically forensically tested (hours or days to get results) that made them jump on the A house that night. JMO again. Even if there is not a smoking gun...I can see what the SA and LE has laid out for the prosecution. I just feel in my gut that there was something there. Something that LE saw and went "Damn." JMO for the third time.
But if ya'll did need a smoking gun that would show guilt, not innocence, guilt before the fact of death *murder* what object, etc...might LE have observed with the remains that made them have a "Oh Wow" moment...what could it have been if it even exists?

 

[tweety933]

Hypothetically.....The hair mat may contain evidence yet to be released. Dog hairs or fibers on the duct tape also. Also, wasn't there a disposable camera found near the remains? I saw a photo of Cindy's bedroom that had some disposable cameras in them. Just guessing what else might be considered evidence that we haven't seen released yet.

 

[travelgal]

I can't quit thinking about the tape either. We've had duct tape in our house since I can remember and I just can't believe that anyone handling that wouldn't leave something behind on it. What I mean is even if she wore gloves, whatever kind of gloves they were would leave something behind on the adhesive. I'm thinking now, after my garage/yard sale, where I ran across my hubby's working gloves -- made of a kind of canvas on top and a suede on the palm side, that GA probably had yard/work gloves in the garage too. I am hoping he did, she used them, left her mark on the tape and that they found matching gloves in the house. I just can't see the medical or the household dish gloves working with duct tape. IDK, I didn't sleep last night and I'm rambling but.....I just can't get past the tape right now. JMO

BBM

ITA Doogiesgirl. I recently saw a case on "Forensic Files" where they were able to solve a kidnapping/murder of a bank president. He was taped onto a chair with weights attached and thrown into a lake. Months later a fisherman found pieces of duct tape along the shore. Fortunately, he did not touch it, but called LE and the tape had finger prints of the 2 that committed the crime. Thanks to finding the tape not only was the bank pres.'s body recovered but they nabbed the perps. What made an impression on me was the fact that even in water for months, there were fingerprints ON THE TAPE. I just made the connection to the tape that was found when Caylee was discovered and so many discussions about no prints on the tape. To my knowledge, they have only reported that GA, CA & LA's prints were not found. I can't help but think this is one of the smoking guns SA is holding back.

 

[Irish_Eyes]

My two cents....In a case so high profile, when we know the FBI was already involved to some extent, I have to believe they have brought in an FBI profiler to look at this case. I imagine the expert testimony of this person may end up being your smoking gun. Here's why (according to books I have read on the subject):

1) A profiler will talk about the reasons children are kidnapped, since KC herself claimed Caylee was kidnapped. The reasons are:

a) sicko perverts who prey on children - overwhelming odds would make this person a white male with priors, not your trusted female babysitter with a family of her own.

b) someone who desperately wants a child, but can't have one for whatever reason - again, ZFG would not fit into this category

c) for ransom. Which would be, logically from someone who has money and/or a job, which KC had neither. Also, a person asking for ransom would make a ransom demand. Didn't happen in this case.


#2 The Heart Sticker

Profilers talk about several different aspects of a crime. In a murder, there are things that are present out of necessity - a gun or a knife, duct tape perhaps. They serve as tools for the criminal to commit the crime. Yet often, there are other things present that are not necessary - at least not on the surface. They are not necessary to commit the crime, but they are very necessary in that they fill a need for the killer. Think of a crime scene where the word "B#tch" is written in lipstick on a mirror, to use a cliche example. This action only serves to satisfy the killer, in this case, express his rage. This is where I think a profiler will go with the heart sticker. It's not necessary. Only to the killer would it have meaning and purpose. Yet, it doesn't speak of a killer who wanted to degrade his victim. To me, it more reminds me of a mother putting a "band-aid on a boo-boo." Momentary remorse, perhaps, but not true remorse, else the child would not have been discarded so carelessly.

 

[cecybeans]

You guys are really helping me consolidate and prioritize what we have seen before. Thanks much! We must all be jamming on the same wavelength here because LittleBitty and I were gabbing and some of the stuff we talked magically appeared in several posts.

For one thing, the Blackjack phone. Maybe since the SIM card was already in the other phone that kept its charge better (I know, we are at great risk if we rely on any Anthony statments), KC gave it to Caylee to play with at some point (perhaps she was in her car seat at the time. I say this only because some people have speculated she may have left the house at some point the evening of the 15th, or it might have been equally possible KC put her in the car the afternoon of the 16th after she left the house and was trying to located a babysitter so she could go to Blockbuster with Tony unencumbered. Heck, this might have happened in the garage in fact. Caylee gets bored, starts screaming, KC reaches for the handy duct tape on one of the shelves and shuts her up (this would support the poster who persuasively argued that Caylee may have been sitting upright at the time and it would explain the hair placement). KC continues to talk on the phone, perhaps going in and out of the house, and reenters the garage realizing Caylee has died. Flurry of calls to see if GA or CA are close by. KC decides to put Caylee and her blanket in the trunk, not noticing she is clutching the Blackjack phone. She might not have bagged her at that point. She goes over to Tonys, spends the night watching movies. He takes off school the next day to be with her (probably listening to her sob stories about the DRAMA her evil parents have caused her).

Later that afternoon, early evening, she pings close to UCF and the eastern end of JBP, perhaps thinking she can dump Caylee and make it look like the Nicole G killer did it (which had happened only a week before). Something goes awry and it doesn't work out so she returns to Tonys to spend the night.

The 18th, she returns home in the afternoon, perhaps thinking she could bury her in the backyard. She backs the car into the garage but does not yet open the trunk. Borrows the shovel, realizes the job will take too long. She returns the shovel after cleaning and sees it is getting dangerously close to when CA might return home. She opens the trunk, and is appalled at the state of Caylee, (who may still be clutching the phone and her hands have rigor so it would have been hard to pry out - not to mention that the phone itself could have been covered with decomp). There is a 2.5 day decomp stain in the middle of the trunk already now if we go with that theory.. KC quickly slips two black plastic bags over her as if they were pillow cases going the opposite direction, to perhaps eliminate further leaking from one end.

The laundry bag, IIRC, is cylindrical in shape and some folks have said it is lined. If the laundry bag was used at this point to further protect leakage (remember, she is still in the garage and it was probably handy), she may have used it then to make it easier to hoist the plastic bags. There are many feasible scenarios as to how and when the laundry bag entered the picture (I tend to think it was added later because the "daisy chain" descriptions both use 3 pavers and black plastic bags as descriptions and make no mention of canvas laundry bags).

However, when LE did the search immediately after finding the body - or the one shortly subsequent - they took 3 cellphones of KC's if I remember correctly. What if KC realized that it was the missing Blackjack that would place her and no one else at the crime scene which sent her into alleged hyperventilation the day Caylee's body was discovered? That seems like a logical "smoking gun" piece of evidence that would allow LE to postulate that a) the Anthony home was the crime scene and b) this was no swimming pool accident or accidental overdose. Just a thought...