Theory Thread - What happened at Pistorius' house on the night of Feb. 13, 2013?

[Laf]

So now we believe him lol.

Seriously, though. If a man also was yelling, I think it would be heard.

Maybe he was outside the locked bedroom door, so his voice was muffled while her arguing could be heard through the bedroom deck doors or bathroom window.

 

[Karmady]

Maybe he was outside the locked bedroom door, so his voice was muffled while her arguing could be heard through the bedroom deck doors or bathroom window.

So she, an aspiring SA beautiful high profile person (the SA equivalent of a Bachelorette contestant, at least, or maybe a Kardashian) yelling with the doors open in her boyfriend's upscale secure neighborhood for an hour while her reality show is getting ready to premiere and she's been dating this guy a grand total of a couple months? Naw....I don't think they wanted that kind of publicity just yet. Right?

 

[Laf]

So she, an aspiring SA beautiful high profile person (the SA equivalent of a Bachelorette contestant, at least, or maybe a Kardashian) yelling with the doors open in her boyfriend's upscale secure neighborhood for an hour while her reality show is getting ready to premiere and she's been dating this guy a grand total of a couple months? Naw....I don't think they wanted that kind of publicity just yet. Right?

She was probably trying to leave. I don't think she was too worried about bad publicity. I think she was more worried about life and limb.

 

[Karmady]

She was probably trying to leave. I don't think she was too worried about bad publicity. I think she was more worried about life and limb.

with only her yelling for an hour? Doubt it. I think she was very worried about bad publicity. I think they both were.

 

[liesbeth]

Maybe he was outside the locked bedroom door, so his voice was muffled while her arguing could be heard through the bedroom deck doors or bathroom window.

What Laf said.

 

[liesbeth]

So she, an aspiring SA beautiful high profile person (the SA equivalent of a Bachelorette contestant, at least, or maybe a Kardashian) yelling with the doors open in her boyfriend's upscale secure neighborhood for an hour while her reality show is getting ready to premiere and she's been dating this guy a grand total of a couple months? Naw....I don't think they wanted that kind of publicity just yet. Right?

Tiger Woods.

 

[sleuth-d-]

Or two people arguing. It does fit the pattern. One higher female voice and one lower male voice taking turns. But then Oscar did say he sounds like a woman when he's upset, so for all we know it could have been Oscar's voice she heard that night.

interesting point.
my theory on this [to attach thread relevance ] is that it could well have been op's voice, with reeva quietly trying to placate. this fits their respective temperaments. there are lots of accounts that she avoided confrontation. and lots of accounts that he was the opposite.

of note, is the fact that roux used v der meuwe's husband's statement that the husband thought it was op, as he knew op's voice. so roux confirm's a 'raised voice'. roux was maybe using this to support the defence case that there was no woman's voice, or maybe that op sounds like a woman, or maybe to discredit the witness. but he hasn't remove the fact of some kind of 'argument'. unfortunately for roux, there were two people in the op house; and an argument of some kind is inferred by one person's continued raised voice.

i assume there is no telephone evidence to support either of them shouting on the phone at that time. so we are left with an op/rs argument - of some kind.

the raised voice was enough to prevent the neighbour from sleeping over a prolonged period of time. looking at the estate layout, also says to me that the argument was at the front of the house... looking at the timing also suggests long drawn out escalation 2:00am-3:17am.

 

[weeeva]

(Sorry mods if I have got too personal here regarding sex.)

As I find it impossible to keep track of timings and all the evidence so far, this is my idea of a motive rather than a scenario of what took place that night.
After ruling out the most obvious reasons as to why people kill, money, revenge, alcohol and/or drugs, I am left with domestic violence which can include self defence and a sexual motive.
As it is clear that Reeva was not a physical threat to OP I am left with jealousy as a motive for what happened that night . We know from the evidence so far that OP did not catch Reeva texting or phoning another man, so what else could have happened to send OP into such a murderous rage?
I have been puzzled why OP and Reeva were wearing pyjamas on such a warm night. Here are two very attractive young people at the beginning of a new relationship, where most couples can hardly keep their hands of each other.
I am reluctant to bring up sex, as there has been no mention in the trial of whether or not the couple had sex that night, or whether Reeva was menstruating or not. So if sex did not take place, could the reason why be the same reason why OP flew into such a murderous rage?

 

[Carmelita]

I think the idea of Reeva planning on leaving that morning at 2 or 3 am is not a very reasonable scenario. She didn’t call or text anyone to say she was leaving, she didn’t even text anyone with any indication that her and Oscar where having so much as a disagreement. There is no way IMO that she would leave the safety of Oscar’s home or a gated community and put herself on the roads of SA at 2 or 3am. She herself was aware of the dangers of SA and she herself relieved some of her stress by shooting at a gun range.

 

[BritsKate]

I think the idea of Reeva planning on leaving that morning at 2 or 3 am is not a very reasonable scenario. She didn’t call or text anyone to say she was leaving, she didn’t even text anyone with any indication that her and Oscar where having so much as a disagreement. There is no way IMO that she would leave the safety of Oscar’s home or a gated community and put herself on the roads of SA at 2 or 3am. She herself was aware of the dangers of SA and she herself relieved some of her stress by shooting at a gun range.

She may not have been able to call anyone, she may have been too embarrassed to call anyone, she may not have been able to even leave his locked bedroom (that he's uncertain she could have disengaged the alarm for if she didn't have access to the remote).

Her leaving to avoid a fight is extremely reasonable but him allowing her to is another entirely. She wouldn't have been considering what may happen on the roads but sensing instead a rising escalation she wasn't in control of - getting out of that would have trumped the potential of putting herself in possible harm driving home. JMO, having left more than once in the middle of the night, babies in tow, to avoid an escalating fight, in a very bad part of town in the city I'm from. The devil I didn't know was a lot less dangerous to me than the one I knew so well.

Please pardon errors as posted via Tapatalk with a less than stellar user.

 

[Really?]

I'd like to know exactly what changes OP made to that contract. I don't think he was 'helping' her at all. Maybe there was something in it that riled him and he wanted her to change it because something in it upset him. Maybe that's why they argued? Out of the two of them, Reeva seemed the most intelligent by a long shot, and I doubt very much she'd have needed (or asked for) his help with her own contract. When he did Reeva a 'favour' by giving her friend a lift, he scared Reeva by speeding, and then he justified it by saying it was because her was giving her friend a lift (and because he was hungry). He doesn't come across as the type of guy who likes to do anyone a favour, apart from himself.

If OP says he helped Reeva with her contract.....let me interpret that from OP speak......no...he has never seen the contract, let alone help with it....lmao

 

[soozieqtips]

I think the idea of Reeva planning on leaving that morning at 2 or 3 am is not a very reasonable scenario. She didn’t call or text anyone to say she was leaving, she didn’t even text anyone with any indication that her and Oscar where having so much as a disagreement. There is no way IMO that she would leave the safety of Oscar’s home or a gated community and put herself on the roads of SA at 2 or 3am. She herself was aware of the dangers of SA and she herself relieved some of her stress by shooting at a gun range.

BBM - What makes you think she had her phone with her? I know OP said she had it in the toilet with her when he pulled out into the bathroom - but just because he said it doesn't make it true. He could have taken the phone away from her earlier if she'd threatened to call the police about something he'd done to her. If he was going all psycho on her, I'm damn sure she'd have tried to leave the house and risk driving home rather than stay in the 'safety' of his house. But it seems like she never got the chance to leave, and instead ended up running for her life to the toilet to lock herself away from him before she was gunned down, and then discarded while he took care of important business - like phoning a friend and not bothering to get her medical help.

 

[lisasalinger]

14. I think the real heated arguing started elsewhere than the bathroom. I think they were either in one of the lounge areas or in the bedroom. I think the bedroom door was closed by Reeva, possibly even slammed in Oscar's face and he flipped out. She wanted to leave. Somehow the disheveled jeans are tied in to her trying to leave in a hurry. I do not buy for a second that the broken bedroom door happened from him kicking it. That is one heck of a crack in the bottom of the door. His prosthetic leg would have been pretty decently shattered, I think. It would have taken him 3 seconds to lean down and undo the floor/top latches to open that door. No need to kick it whatsoever. But it's not just the bottom crack that we see. There are two good "whack" marks right near the door handle and what appears to be two separate pellet marks. One hole that has an entrance and exit, and the other appears to be a grazing mark. I think the first set of bangs very well could have been the airgun shooting at the bedroom door. I also think he may have used the metal baseball bat on the door, but don't think anybody would have heard that.

15. The Stipps testified that the screams escalated and climaxed, and the sounds got closer. I think this was Reeva running to the bathroom. She very well may have had the cricket bat in her hand for defense.

16. I think Reeva also had her phone on her (to call police) and either Oscar caught up to her and whacked it away from her, or she dropped it, leaving it on the ground with the cover knocked off. This would have really pissed him off.

17. Reeva scrambles in to the toilet room and quickly locks the door.

18. Oscar first uses the cricket bat to whack the metal plate, in anger. He also takes a whack at the door. Reeva's screams are escalating.

19. This is when the Stipps and Burger/Johnson heard the intermingled voices. Reeva screaming for help and Oscar either mocking her cries for help or maybe even pleading with her to please come out. Reeva is facing the door, literally pleading for him to stop and for help to come. I think they were both desperate at this point.

20. Oscar has had it. He's totally in a rage. He retreats to the bedroom and gets his gun. Whatever final words or screams were yelled, he just can't contain himself. Fires off the shots through the door. I think there is a very good chance that he could see her through the crack.

After re-listening to the Burger/Johnson and van der Mewre testimonies this week, I want to revise part of my theory above (which I snipped for space).

The screaming and the bangs, and who heard what, all makes sense to me now (see the sounds thread for my full thoughts).

These are my revised notes for the points above:

14. I do still think that the fighting begin in another area other than the bedroom/bathroom but I think it started somewhere downstairs, either in the kitchen or immediate surrounding area. Mrs. van der Mewre's bedroom faces the front of OP's house and the arguing voice was intermittent which tells me that the person likely changed locations in the house during the fight. She did not hear the blood-curdling screaming before the shots and that is because the final screams occurred in the bathroom on the backside of the house.

They also heard OP crying loudly some time after those last set of shots, most likely because he came down the stairs to open the front door, and also carried Reeva down the stairs. That's what they heard, and that's what Mr. van der Mewre identified when he said, "that's Oscar crying". We know he was sobbing at that point according to Stipp.

When they looked out the window a short time later, an ambulance and other vehicles were already outside. I absolutely believe the shots they heard were the actual gunshots around the 3:16am timeframe.

I have changed my mind about the airgun causing the first banging noises. I think that Mangena would have testified about that. I think that it was the cricket bat hitting wood and the Stipps are the only people who heard it earlier on because their open balcony directly faces OP's bathroom.

15. I still agree with my thoughts here, that OP and Reeva were running in to the bathroom towards the end of the fight, hence the closer screams.

18. and 19. This is when the Stipps hear the first set of bangs- wood on wood and maybe wood on metal plate.

I think the screaming from Reeva occurred over several minutes after that, there was a crack in the door from the bat strikes and she could see OP, and vice versa. The reason for the final climax of terrified screams is that she saw him come back in with the gun. She knew what was coming. He hit her in the hip. She was alive, she saw it, felt it and was in agony. The screaming continued throughout the next 3 shots and ended after the last one. The total silence after the gunshots was witnessed, and testified to, by both Stipps, Burger, Johnson and van der Mewre. All of their testimonies match exactly with that point.

I know we've talked about the bat hitting the door first for a very long time, and I have definitely entertained that as the first set of bangs, but I always was a little hesitant to say for sure that is what I thought it was. After really thinking about the ear witness testimonies all week, and re-listening to them, I am now a full subscriber to bat strikes first. Not that I ever doubted the gunshots seconds. I was always firm on that. Just wasn't sure what exactly caused those first noises. It makes perfect sense to me now though, and I get why the Stipps were the only ones to hear it. Part of my problem was the van der Mewres hearing gunshots around 3am, but after listening to Estelle's testimony again, I realize that she was always talking about the second set of bangs (the gunshots) and just didn't have the exact time.

 

[TorisMom003]

with only her yelling for an hour? Doubt it. I think she was very worried about bad publicity. I think they both were.

What kind of "bad publicity" that Reeva would be concerned with comes into play with Reeva being killed by OP? I must really be missing something here because this makes zero sense to me.

 

[Karmady]

Tiger Woods.

Tiger Woods and Reeva Steenkamp are light years apart in terms of what they could get away with. Tiger was a decades proven international golf star, multi-million if not billionaire with a team of "people" protecting him at all times. He's been a sex addict for years to non one's knowledge, just for example.

Reeva was almost 30 and 5'7" - not model material by any standard. That's why she was doing reality tv I'd guess.

 

[liesbeth]

Tiger Woods and Reeva Steenkamp are light years apart in terms of what they could get away with. Tiger was a decades proven international golf star, multi-million if not billionaire with a team of "people" protecting him at all times. He's been a sex addict for years to non one's knowledge, just for example.

Reeva was almost 30 and 5'7" - not model material by any standard. That's why she was doing reality tv I'd guess.

I strongly disagree. I think that your words are subjective, your personal opinion, not objective facts and so your words can not be debated.

 

[sleuth-d-]

After re-listening to the Burger/Johnson and van der Mewre testimonies this week, I want to revise part of my theory above (which I snipped for space).

The screaming and the bangs, and who heard what, all makes sense to me now (see the sounds thread for my full thoughts).

These are my revised notes for the points above:

14. I do still think that the fighting begin in another area other than the bedroom/bathroom but I think it started somewhere downstairs, either in the kitchen or immediate surrounding area. Mrs. van der Mewre's bedroom faces the front of OP's house and the arguing voice was intermittent which tells me that the person likely changed locations in the house during the fight. She did not hear the blood-curdling screaming before the shots and that is because the final screams occurred in the bathroom on the backside of the house.

They also heard OP crying loudly some time after those last set of shots, most likely because he came down the stairs to open the front door, and also carried Reeva down the stairs. That's what they heard, and that's what Mr. van der Mewre identified when he said, "that's Oscar crying". We know he was sobbing at that point according to Stipp.

When they looked out the window a short time later, an ambulance and other vehicles were already outside. I absolutely believe the shots they heard were the actual gunshots around the 3:16am timeframe.

I have changed my mind about the airgun causing the first banging noises. I think that Mangena would have testified about that. I think that it was the cricket bat hitting wood and the Stipps are the only people who heard it earlier on because their open balcony directly faces OP's bathroom.

15. I still agree with my thoughts here, that OP and Reeva were running in to the bathroom towards the end of the fight, hence the closer screams.

18. and 19. This is when the Stipps hear the first set of bangs- wood on wood and maybe wood on metal plate.

I think the screaming from Reeva occurred over several minutes after that, there was a crack in the door from the bat strikes and she could see OP, and vice versa. The reason for the final climax of terrified screams is that she saw him come back in with the gun. She knew what was coming. He hit her in the hip. She was alive, she saw it, felt it and was in agony. The screaming continued throughout the next 3 shots and ended after the last one. The total silence after the gunshots was witnessed, and testified to, by both Stipps, Burger, Johnson and van der Mewre. All of their testimonies match exactly with that point.

I know we've talked about the bat hitting the door first for a very long time, and I have definitely entertained that as the first set of bangs, but I always was a little hesitant to say for sure that is what I thought it was. After really thinking about the ear witness testimonies all week, and re-listening to them, I am now a full subscriber to bat strikes first. Not that I ever doubted the gunshots seconds. I was always firm on that. Just wasn't sure what exactly caused those first noises. It makes perfect sense to me now though, and I get why the Stipps were the only ones to hear it. Part of my problem was the van der Mewres hearing gunshots around 3am, but after listening to Estelle's testimony again, I realize that she was always talking about the second set of bangs (the gunshots) and just didn't have the exact time.

i agree the argument was not confined to bedroom/toilet. it could have been escalating/pausing/restarting over a long period, in volume and throughout the house.

observations:
i struggle with there being a chase to the bathroom. as nell was at pains to establish, she had recently voided her bladder... but this could have been up to 15 minutes before death. i find it hard to believe under the circumstances... that she was being chased into the bathroom/toilet, and then sat down in the toilet to pee. this would have been the last thing on her mind. unless it was her second trip into the toilet in quick succession. the first legitimate, the second to hide.

i believe she created a first barrier/lock at the bedroom door [op's description of the cricket bat at the bedroom door was odd to me] which op broke down with force, but fairly easily [maybe he had the cricket bat already here - there were marks on the door, or picked it up having forced the door]. at this point unknown to him, she was already in the toilet/toilet area. he wanted to continue arguing - she had already packed, was taking a pee before leaving, and was finished with arguing.

i also believe the two bat strikes came first, but am struggling with the fact that op managed to create a small opening in the door [at 3ish], but having accomplished that, didn't then continue to remove the rest of the panels [they seemed to come out with ease]. at this point why not gain access/unlock the door. why was there a fifteen minute gap, and yet all the screaming?

the two pairs of jeans are also difficult to explain. one pair inside out? one pair outside the toilet window? this may modify the thinking.

another thing i am struggling to understand is this from her long whatsapp message:
"i am the girl that let go with you, even when i was scared out of my mind"

 

[DebinGA]

So she, an aspiring SA beautiful high profile person (the SA equivalent of a Bachelorette contestant, at least, or maybe a Kardashian) yelling with the doors open in her boyfriend's upscale secure neighborhood for an hour while her reality show is getting ready to premiere and she's been dating this guy a grand total of a couple months? Naw....I don't think they wanted that kind of publicity just yet. Right?

Actually, it's more believable to me that it was OP's voice that Ms. Werwe heard during the 2:00 a.m. argument. I bet his angry voice is shrill, loud, and totally out of proportion to whatever irritation set him off. Where I live, it's socially unacceptable for a man to raise his voice in anger at a woman, especially if she's not loudly arguing back, but it seems to be OP's standard mo. If I'd heard what Ms. Werwe heard, my first thought would be that an abusive husband was berating his cowed wife with his window open.

 

[lisasalinger]

i agree the argument was not confined to bedroom/toilet. it could have been escalating/pausing/restarting over a long period, in volume and throughout the house.

observations:
i struggle with there being a chase to the bathroom. as nell was at pains to establish, she had recently voided her bladder... but this could have been up to 15 minutes before death. i find it hard to believe under the circumstances... that she was being chased into the bathroom/toilet, and then sat down in the toilet to pee. this would have been the last thing on her mind. unless it was her second trip into the toilet in quick succession. the first legitimate, the second to hide.

i believe she created a first barrier/lock at the bedroom door [op's description of the cricket bat at the bedroom door was odd to me] which op broke down with force, but fairly easily [maybe he had the cricket bat already here - there were marks on the door, or picked it up having forced the door]. at this point unknown to him, she was already in the toilet/toilet area. he wanted to continue arguing - she had already packed, was taking a pee before leaving, and was finished with arguing.

i also believe the two bat strikes came first, but am struggling with the fact that op managed to create a small opening in the door [at 3ish], but having accomplished that, didn't then continue to remove the rest of the panels [they seemed to come out with ease]. at this point why not gain access/unlock the door. why was there a fifteen minute gap, and yet all the screaming?

the two pairs of jeans are also difficult to explain. one pair inside out? one pair outside the toilet window? this may modify the thinking.

another thing i am struggling to understand is this from her long whatsapp message:
"i am the girl that let go with you, even when i was scared out of my mind"

My interpretation of that quote above is that even though people (some anonymous via internet) were telling her to stay away from OP for various reasons, and even though he was a very difficult, very needy person to be with, she opened up her heart to him anyway. So scary in the emotional sense.

BUT... the other time where she mentions that "I'm scared of you and how you snap at me" I do believe she means that she's physically afraid of him when he gets like that.

 

[Cherwell]

i struggle with there being a chase to the bathroom. as nell was at pains to establish, she had recently voided her bladder... but this could have been up to 15 minutes before death. i find it hard to believe under the circumstances... that she was being chased into the bathroom/toilet, and then sat down in the toilet to pee. this would have been the last thing on her mind. unless it was her second trip into the toilet in quick succession. the first legitimate, the second to hide.

That doesn't trouble me at all. If you need to go, you go. I can easily accept that she might have fled into the loo and then, feeling the need, took the opportunity to pee.