Theory Thread - What happened at Pistorius' house on the night of Feb. 13, 2013?

[Viper]

*snipped by me for brevity*

This is not a "fact" it is a theory of what could have happened.

Neither is there any proof that Oscar is a psychopath.

I disagree.

 

[acejase]

Reeva brought a thoughtfully created Valentines Day gift and a card too, she was romantically involved with Ozzie. She stayed with him in his home, in his bed. Why would anybody think that she "would not put out?" I'm not following...

becuase of the ongoing row that night in my "version" they started rowing at the dinner table and carried on then as my experience of women that are angry after a row wouldnt entertain him and as he is already built up with jealousy that sparked him off and it heated right up

also the gift and card were obviously brought before they arrived home so before the row

 

[BritsKate]

Yes the DSM V is what I am basing my opinion of Oscar’s shared traits with people that have diagnosed disorders. He is not diagnosed with any of them and I do not believe he suffers a combination of any of them. I only think he has some of the traits of each. He is certainly nowhere near to meeting the criteria for histrionic personality disorder nor would he fit any of the widely accepted preexisting criteria for the disorder.

And just to be clear I did not say nor do I believe that he diagnostically meets the criteria of any of the disorders/complexes on their own or comorbidly . Although I do think he has disordered thinking.

Ahh, I read too quickly. My apologies. And here, I thought we were winning you over. The traits of NPD and PPD are incongruent, regardless of diagnostic criteria, in my opinion. If you're using the DSM as a basis - the two co-occurring doesn't seem possible, for obvious reasons.

Obviously, he can be paranoid and narcissistic, both, without having any psychiatric disorders. If he does have one disorder though, I believe by rights the other would automatically be precluded.

JMO

 

[Carmelita]

BBM

I think the reason OP has refused to accept responsibility on the lesser charges is because his sole concern is protecting his image & his brand as the Blade Runner.

If he had admitted to any of the lesser firearms charges, his ability to secure sponsorship contracts and his future as a competitive athlete would have been history, even if he were to be miraculously acquitted of the more serious charge of murder (which I don't expect to happen, but I think that OP believes he won't be convicted on that charge, or any of the other charges).

I think OP believes he'll be acquitted of all the charges - the firearms charges as well as the murder charge. I think he also believes that he'll return to his profession as a competitive athlete, with lucrative sponsorship deals, and I think he believes he'll just pick up where he left off.

I think in his self-centered mind he is convinced that if he plays the role of a hapless victim of circumstances hard enough and long enough during this trial that the Judge and the two assessors will also see him as a victim of circumstances.

IMO, OP is in for a rude awakening when cold hard reality comes to call on the day the verdict is delivered.

You know you could be right. I can't see his reasoning going to that complex of a scenario though, Roux had to explain to him the folly of claiming that the gun in the restaurant went off without Oscar pulling the trigger. Something in Oscar cannot accept this or speak it.

I think he knows that any chance at being a "brand" is over. He has enough money or his family does for him to live out his life in luxury if he is acquitted. He will still have his choice of many young beauties if he is acquitted.

I can't imagine he wasn't counseled that taking responsibility for the accidental shooting at Tasha's would be the best thing for the "Blade Runner" but there is something IMO in his psyche that cannot accept the truth.

He is an emotionally unstable man, that I am convinced of, I am still not convinced that he willfully murdered Reeva.

 

[Viper]

becuase of the ongoing row that night in my "version" they started rowing at the dinner table and carried on then as my experience of women that are angry after a row wouldnt entertain him and as he is already built up with jealousy that sparked him off and it heated right up

also the gift and card were obviously brought before they arrived home so before the row

Well if they had a serious fight at dinner that was left unresolved, wouldn't you think that Reeva would have left at 7:00 or 8:00? Why did she text her best friend at 10:00 to say that it was too late to drive home so she was just going to stay at Ozzie's house? This is a circular conversation that could go on forever. The evidence is that the argument was at 2:00AM and the murder was at 3:15AM.

 

[Carmelita]

Ahh, I read too quickly. My apologies. And here, I thought we were winning you over. The traits of NPD and PPD are incongruent, regardless of diagnostic criteria, in my opinion. If you're using the DSM as a basis - the two co-occurring doesn't seem possible, for obvious reasons.

Obviously, he can be paranoid and narcissistic, both, without having any psychiatric disorders. If he does have one disorder though, I believe by rights the other would automatically be precluded.

JMO

Sorry for the mis-communication I was just speaking of traits.

I'm a hard case so don't feel bad that the collective you (or the evidence) is not winning me over to PM, I find it interesting that people are convinced that Oscar killed Reeva in cold blood, purposefully. Some believe that they know that there was a row, some believe Oscar is a psychopath, it is interesting to see the case from different viewing points and through all the different personal experiences people have in which to decipher the evidence.

 

[acejase]

Well if they had a serious fight at dinner that was left unresolved, wouldn't you think that Reeva would have left at 7:00 or 8:00? Why did she text her best friend at 10:00 to say that it was too late to drive home so she was just going to stay at Ozzie's house? This is a circular conversation that could go on forever. The evidence is that the argument was at 2:00AM and the murder was at 3:15AM.

maybe dinner was a lot later then oscar says we only have his word for that or maybe she thought the row was resolved then later still stewing op starts again later on in the night after she has txt her friend and he thinks she is txting her ex and that kicks it off again when in fact she just txt her friend....

 

[sorrell skye]

You know you could be right. I can't see his reasoning going to that complex of a scenario though, Roux had to explain to him the folly of claiming that the gun in the restaurant went off without Oscar pulling the trigger. Something in Oscar cannot accept this or speak it.

I think he knows that any chance at being a "brand" is over. He has enough money or his family does for him to live out his life in luxury if he is acquitted. He will still have his choice of many young beauties if he is acquitted.

I can't imagine he wasn't counseled that taking responsibility for the accidental shooting at Tasha's would be the best thing for the "Blade Runner" but there is something IMO in his psyche that cannot accept the truth.

He is an emotionally unstable man, that I am convinced of, I am still not convinced that he willfully murdered Reeva.

BBM

According to recent articles, OP is broke. After his arrest, he's had to sell his race horse(s), as well as liquidate other assets. More recent articles have reported that he's put his Pretoria home up for sale in order to fund his Defense.

I think the most important thing to OP is his ability to be a successful competitive athlete. I think his entire sense of self-worth is derived from competing & winning in world-class events.

I don't think he'd settle for living off his family's money or working at a job where he wasn't a front & center 'hero' of some sort. Nor do I think he'd be satisfied with dating anyone that wasn't enamored of his fame, regardless of how beautiful that woman may be.

I think a possible bone of contention in his relationship with Reeva was that she was becoming a star in her own right - she didn't need to be a part of OP's fawning entourage. I believe this was why he criticized Reeva over trivial things - because he needed to try to make Reeva feel inferior so that he could feel superior.

I totally agree with you that there's something in his psyche that cannot accept the truth. If he could, then he wouldn't be on trial for murder.

 

[Carmelita]

BBM

According to recent articles, OP is broke. After his arrest, he's had to sell his race horse(s), as well as liquidate other assets. More recent articles have reported that he's put his Pretoria home up for sale in order to fund his Defense.

I think the most important thing to OP is his ability to be a successful competitive athlete. I think his entire sense of self-worth is derived from competing & winning in world-class events.

I don't think he'd settle for living off his family's money or working at a job where he wasn't a front & center 'hero' of some sort. Nor do I think he'd be satisfied with dating anyone that wasn't enamored of his fame, regardless of how beautiful that woman may be.

I think a possible bone of contention in his relationship with Reeva was that she was becoming a star in her own right - she didn't need to be a part of OP's fawning entourage. I believe this was why he criticized Reeva over trivial things - because he needed to try to make Reeva feel inferior so that he could feel superior.

I totally agree with you that there's something in his psyche that cannot accept the truth. If he could, then he wouldn't be on trial for murder.

I do know about his selling of is house and horses, I am not convinced that there is not money. Oscar is paying Roux and the whole entourage and other expenses. No one knows how much, although I have read different amounts bandied about. Oscar I am sure cut a sweetheart deal with Roux, the publicity for being the defense attorney of Oscar Pistorious in and of itself is a cash cow even if Oscar never paid Roux a dime.


I think the most important thing to OP is his ability to be a successful competitive athlete. I think his entire sense of self-worth is derived from competing & winning in world-class events.



I do think that he wants to compete again, I think that is where he finds his solace. It is the only time when he doesn't have to think about his normal human failings because he is in the "zone."


MO he is far more complex and simple than many want to believe.

 

[crasshopper]

You know you could be right. I can't see his reasoning going to that complex of a scenario though, Roux had to explain to him the folly of claiming that the gun in the restaurant went off without Oscar pulling the trigger. Something in Oscar cannot accept this or speak it.

I think he knows that any chance at being a "brand" is over. He has enough money or his family does for him to live out his life in luxury if he is acquitted. He will still have his choice of many young beauties if he is acquitted.

I can't imagine he wasn't counseled that taking responsibility for the accidental shooting at Tasha's would be the best thing for the "Blade Runner" but there is something IMO in his psyche that cannot accept the truth.

He is an emotionally unstable man, that I am convinced of, am still not convinced that he willfully murdered Reeva.

You had me until the very last phrase!

 

[crasshopper]

I do know about his selling of is house and horses, I am not convinced that there is not money.

RBSM

The cynic in me suspects part of that is a ploy for sympathy...

 

[crasshopper]

Snipped by me...

im thinking after the row maybe about her seeing her ex he wanted some extra loving and she wouldn't put out so tried to help himself hence jeans on garden and other pair inside out maybe even add duvet on floor to the equation then she fled to toilet threatening to call police and ...bang bang bang bang

I don't know why but I just don't think they were intimate that evening. That said, the report of a possible nipple abrasion is troubling, especially if it was an acute abrasion.

Def agree with that OP's solution was "bang... bang, bang, bang."

 

[Suthrnqt]

Totally O/T....
Does the trial start back tonight? And will there be a new thread to discuss the trial. TIA

 

[lisasalinger]

Totally O/T....
Does the trial start back tonight? And will there be a new thread to discuss the trial. TIA

Yep, starts in one hour The new discussion thread is set up but not open just yet.

 

[Suthrnqt]

Yep, starts in one hour The new discussion thread is set up but not open just yet.

Thank you for that info, Lisa.

 

[lisasalinger]

I don't know why but I just don't think they were intimate that evening. That said, the report of a possible nipple abrasion is troubling, especially if it was an acute abrasion.

Def agree with that OP's solution was "bang... bang, bang, bang."

All of the injuries on her upper right torso, including the nipple abrasion were very likely caused by the massive exit wound under her right arm.

Mangena testified that her right arm must have been up and in front of her body when it was hit. The evidence on the front of her tank top (holes, body tissue, bone and bullet fragment) also help to solidify this.

 

[lisasalinger]

maybe dinner was a lot later then oscar says we only have his word for that or maybe she thought the row was resolved then later still stewing op starts again later on in the night after she has txt her friend and he thinks she is txting her ex and that kicks it off again when in fact she just txt her friend....

Welcome, ace!

I agree that there were a lot of things "off" about that day and evening. I think it's very possible that they argued on and off all night or were at least tense/moody during the night. Then things really escalated later on.

Oscar had a troubling meeting earlier that day and Reeva consoled him via text messages. She even suggested he spend the night with his family. She was supposed to go home to Johannesburg that evening but changed her mind at some point, we're not sure exactly why.

Oscar spent an hour by himself upstairs, watching *advertiser censored* at some point during that time while his new girlfriend was downstairs making him dinner. We only know about the *advertiser censored* because of iPad evidence, OP did not admit to it on the stand, nor did Nel directly ask him about it.

Oscar also testified that they typically watched TV downstairs after dinner but that night, they did not. They just ate, looked at her modeling contracts, then went upstairs. They did not follow their usual routine.

Then... we have them going to bed at 10pm. That doesn't seem to be the norm for them if you look at their social media messages. Plus, it was Valentine's eve and Reeva had a nice present for Oscar, and was tweeting about VDay on Twitter that week. She was seemingly excited about the holiday. And, she changed her plans to be there with him that night. Yet, according to OP they just hung out looking at pics on their phone & iPad all night and he fell asleep early. His description of that whole evening was very vague and did not at all seem genuine to me. I think he left A LOT out.

And don't forget, Reeva had food in her stomach which she likely ate about two hours prior to death. She was definitely awake later in that night.

Then Mrs. van der Mewre heard a loud, arguing female voice starting at 1:56am. Her bedroom balcony faces the front of Oscar's house. So they were likely fighting in one of the rooms that's in the front of the house (possibly kitchen area)

There are a lot of red flags to me that things were not normal in that household that evening. But for whatever reason, it all changed drastically around 2am and ended up in the bedroom and bathroom.

Which by the way, I don't consider to be odd. I've seen some people comment about the weirdness of a heated fight at 3am, but if you've ever lived in an apartment or condo, trust me... the best fights are always in the middle of the night! I don't know why that is... probably either drinking, or cheating, etc. You know that old saying that nothing good happens after midnight... well it's pretty much true.

 

[bessie]

:seeya: Good morning. Gather up your notes and buckets, and proceed on over to the trial thread.


Trial Discussion Thread #33 - 14.05.05 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

 

[Gbtaketwo]

The cynic in me suspects part of that is a ploy for sympathy...

I agree the timing is likely for sympathy but I believe he would have sold the house regardless. He was looking to sell the house before the shooting to move to Johannesburg
After such an incident you would not think he could ever live there again .

 

[crasshopper]

All of the injuries on her upper right torso, including the nipple abrasion were very likely caused by the massive exit wound under her right arm.

Mangena testified that her right arm must have been up and in front of her body when it was hit. The evidence on the front of her tank top (holes, body tissue, bone and bullet fragment) also help to solidify this.

Thank you, that makes sense!