Three critical questions

[ciela]

ciela, I share your shock and seriousness of just how could anyone do this to their child. It does indeed puzzle the mind in all that is fair and decent.
<cut>.

jmo

Agreed on all points but the argument was made earlier that the Ramseys (due to delicate sensitivities) did not want to remove the body b/c they wanted a proper burial. However, if they were -that- frantic and desperate I believe they would have chosen to remove all evidence of the homicide that could link to one of the family (garroting, sexual abuse, whatever) and bury her in a private place far from inquiring eyes. Just my take...

One other thing, the autopsy revealed that the blow to the head was IMMENSE so I don't see it being accidental. I believe it was meant to kill or do serious bodily injury by someone with a lot of strength ( I realize this too is conjecture).

 

[Whaleshark]

Whaleshark, only the middle paragraph of the quoted posts was mine. The rest was all DocG's.

I know, but on my phone I can't easily make the quotes work and format it how I want....

Sorry for any confusion.

 

[KoldKase]

I have a question please, if there was no bleeding from the head wound (I don't remember reading there was) where did the blood on JBR's pillow come from?

There was no bleeding from the scalp, but there was some blood-tinged mucous which drained from her nose. You can see it in the autopsy photos on her face: it's a rather yellow-gold droplet.

Also Steve Thomas wrote in his book a drop of her blood was found on her upper sleeve, the same direction her head was turned. I theorize it must have drained down her face after the head injury because it has blood in it--hence the blood drop on her right face, as was saliva found dried under the duct tape, where it had run down the right side from her mouth. That indicates the duct tape was applied after she was either dead or at least incapacitated, drooling to the right in a gravitational downward direction.

But she also did bleed from her vaginal wounds. So my question is this: do the lab results of DNA from that biological material determine whether it was from a sexual assault or from her nose?

Haney's question of Patsy in '98 about a nosebleed leaving blood on the pillowcase would seem to imply it was from her nose. I'd just like to know for sure. Like that's ever going to happen....

 

[KoldKase]

Just want to say that I'm way behind on reading this thread, so anything addressed directly to me, I apologize for not answering sooner. I'll try to catch up this weekend.

 

[KoldKase]

I believe Kolar tipped his hand in the radio interview with Peter Boyles and Carol McKinley about where he believes she received the head wound.

Sorry, KK, I thought you were aware of what I thought happened. I pretty much laid it out in the thread I started long ago about the knots. At the time, I pretty much got pilloried for suggesting that a frail, weakly, innocent little child could have anything to do with something as evil as this.

I'll try not to take up too much space here going into detail, but basically I have speculated that BR coaxed JonBenet to the basement (as far away as possible from their parents' bedroom) to continue experimenting with his "newly found interest". He probably led her (as it's been noted by PR that he did at other times in a playful way) with a "leash" (a cord tied loosly around her neck). Then when she was where he wanted her stay, he would have tied the loose end of the cord/leash to something overhead, or simply ran it over something and then tied the other end to her hands. Next, a painful use of a paintbrush makes her scream, an object (golf club, bat, fireplace poker, etc.) strikes her over the head in a moment of panic, and she falls unconscious, pulling on the cord and causing it to tighten around her neck. Of course, all of the cleanup and staging would have to be done by the desperate parents when they find out what happened. Does Kolar mention anything about what was taken into evidence from the basement bathroom, or if any testing was done for blood residue there, fingerprints (or lack of)?
.

A couple of questions come to mind.

How did he insert a paintbrush into her vagina if she was standing up? If she was already "hanging" then wouldn't the ligature around her neck have already tightened?

I guess I'm just not quite able to "see" what you're thinking.

But a poster at FFJ made an observation that I find intriging: if Burke put he ligature on her, tied it, tied on the paintbrush after breaking it up, why isn't his DNA on it? Kolar said the cord was tested and had unidentified DNA on it, but he said nothing about Burke's being on it.

Just a question. I find it hard to imagine a child his age putting on gloves to do those things, thinking about forensic evidence or such.

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[DeeDee249]

The ligature around her neck was "circumferential". That means even and parallel all the way around her neck. There was NO hanging. In a hanging, the ligature makes a very different mark- more like a V, with the open part (with no mark) usually towards the side or back. Im JB's case, this cord was wound around her neck several times as she was lying on her stomach. She was never suspended or hung at all.

 

[OpenMind4U]

The ligature around her neck was "circumferential". That means even and parallel all the way around her neck. There was NO hanging. In a hanging, the ligature makes a very different mark- more like a V, with the open part (with no mark) usually towards the side or back. Im JB's case, this cord was wound around her neck several times as she was lying on her stomach. She was never suspended or hung at all.

Absolutely correct. When actual strangulation occurs (pulling the rope and tiding behind) - JBR was lying on her stomach.

 

[hetty]

There was no bleeding from the scalp, but there was some blood-tinged mucous which drained from her nose. You can see it in the autopsy photos on her face: it's a rather yellow-gold droplet.

Also Steve Thomas wrote in his book a drop of her blood was found on her upper sleeve, the same direction her head was turned. I theorize it must have drained down her face after the head injury because it has blood in it--hence the blood drop on her right face, as was saliva found dried under the duct tape, where it had run down the right side from her mouth. That indicates the duct tape was applied after she was either dead or at least incapacitated, drooling to the right in a gravitational downward direction.

But she also did bleed from her vaginal wounds. So my question is this: do the lab results of DNA from that biological material determine whether it was from a sexual assault or from her nose?

Haney's question of Patsy in '98 about a nosebleed leaving blood on the pillowcase would seem to imply it was from her nose. I'd just like to know for sure. Like that's ever going to happen....

Thanks Koldkase, I appreciate the answer. I had seen the photos of the mucous before, but I guess I didn't think of it as being bloody enough to leave a bloody mark on a pillow, if you see what I mean? I assumed it was more dilute than it clearly was.

I can't quite process how this fits in..was she bashed elsewhere, moved to her bed and then to the basement? seems quite a drawn out route?

 

[twinkiesmom]

The 90 minutes: the parents not being very attentive may not have responded to noise right away.

Wouldn't anyone staging the crime have to have heard the head crack to realize the seriousness of the head blow? If you walked in on this child with a closed head injury that you didn't witness and couldn't see and the only symptom was unconsciousness, why not call EMS?

 

[txsvicki]

I question that the blood on the blanket, gown, and maybe even pillow was planted to make it seem more like jonbenet was taken from her bed. If jonbenet was injured in the kitchen or basement they might not have moved her that much while trying to assess her condition so should have only covered her with a blanket. I even question that those three blood spots might have been from the previous recent assault. There was some questioning of patsy that the urine stained sheets were a week old and that doesn't jive with lhp changing the bed or with patsy's story.

 

[otg]

I'll try to answer all in one post, as they are related.

A couple of questions come to mind.

How did he insert a paintbrush into her vagina if she was standing up? If she was already "hanging" then wouldn't the ligature around her neck have already tightened?

I guess I'm just not quite able to "see" what you're thinking.

The paintbrush would have been used as a part of the molestation before any other injuries occurred. Yes, she would have been standing, or possibly kneeling, while the cord was tied loosely to her neck and over something else overhead. In this scenario, when the end of the paintbrush caused pain and bleeding, she would have screamed. This would cause him to hit her over the head inducing unconsciousness. She would then fall forward onto the cord which would tighten in an upward angle toward the back of her neck (the blanched area on her neck). This is the mark of the ligature which strangled her. The other ligature placement, the final resting place of the ligature, the deep furrow, is where the cord either moved by overcoming the laryngeal prominence on its own with the suspended weight, or was moved with the assistance of someone.

(KoldKase cont.)
But a poster at FFJ made an observation that I find intriging: if Burke put he ligature on her, tied it, tied on the paintbrush after breaking it up, why isn't his DNA on it? Kolar said the cord was tested and had unidentified DNA on it, but he said nothing about Burke's being on it.

Just a question. I find it hard to imagine a child his age putting on gloves to do those things, thinking about forensic evidence or such.

Burke didn't break the paintbrush or tie the cord to it. That would be the stagers in trying to conceal what really happened and to obscure how the paintbrush had actually been used. I don't know where the cord was tested for DNA (actually I had wondered for years why they didn't test it where it was tied to the paintbrush -- and now, according to kolar, they did), but I agree that if all of it was tested and there was no BR DNA, it would pretty much discount this scenario.

The ligature around her neck was "circumferential". That means even and parallel all the way around her neck. There was NO hanging. In a hanging, the ligature makes a very different mark- more like a V, with the open part (with no mark) usually towards the side or back. Im JB's case, this cord was wound around her neck several times as she was lying on her stomach. She was never suspended or hung at all.

Oh, DD, I really hate to disagree with you but...

As many times as you and I have discussed it, you know I'm aware of the "V" pattern that is common in a typical hanging. But that "V" is only present when the person's full body is suspended completely off the ground. I'm not talking about a typical hanging, but what is technically called a partial hanging or a partial suspension (Google it -- I'm not making it up.). This is a pretty gruesome description because it is being suggested as a means of suicide, but you'll get the idea of what happens that is different from a complete suspension: http://jiutsu.motionsforum.com/t2-methods-partial-hanging-suspension

The final position of the ligature (in the deep furrow) is obviously not from a hanging. I agree. But the blanched area we have discussed so many times before is where I believe she was first strangled. Look at the angle that goes from the front where the blanching occurs to the back where it disappears into the area where the furrow is in the back of her neck. This would be a classic hanging mark had the ligature been left there. But it was moved to the perfectly horizontal position, with no pulling and therefore completely circumferential, where it remained until her body was "discovered" twelve hours later.

Now... Where did that part come in about the cord being wrapped around her neck several times? This is something new to me. Was that something in Kolar's book? I hadn't heard that.

Absolutely correct. When actual strangulation occurs (pulling the rope and tiding behind) - JBR was lying on her stomach.

Et tu, Brute? See above.
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[txsvicki]

I also wonder about the cord being wrapped several times. It'a slip knot and described as able to be pulled and tightened making the knot hard to untie.

 

[UKGuy]

Thanks Koldkase, I appreciate the answer. I had seen the photos of the mucous before, but I guess I didn't think of it as being bloody enough to leave a bloody mark on a pillow, if you see what I mean? I assumed it was more dilute than it clearly was.

I can't quite process how this fits in..was she bashed elsewhere, moved to her bed and then to the basement? seems quite a drawn out route?

hetty,
This is one of the clues that tell you we are dealing with a staged crime-scene!

 

[UKGuy]

Wouldn't anyone staging the crime have to have heard the head crack to realize the seriousness of the head blow? If you walked in on this child with a closed head injury that you didn't witness and couldn't see and the only symptom was unconsciousness, why not call EMS?

twinkiesmom,
Its assumed the person(s) doing the staging may not have been present, when she was initially whacked on the head.



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[UKGuy]

I'll try to answer all in one post, as they are related.

The paintbrush would have been used as a part of the molestation before any other injuries occurred. Yes, she would have been standing, or possibly kneeling, while the cord was tied loosely to her neck and over something else overhead. In this scenario, when the end of the paintbrush caused pain and bleeding, she would have screamed. This would cause him to hit her over the head inducing unconsciousness. She would then fall forward onto the cord which would tighten in an upward angle toward the back of her neck (the blanched area on her neck). This is the mark of the ligature which strangled her. The other ligature placement, the final resting place of the ligature, the deep furrow, is where the cord either moved by overcoming the laryngeal prominence on its own with the suspended weight, or was moved with the assistance of someone.


Burke didn't break the paintbrush or tie the cord to it. That would be the stagers in trying to conceal what really happened and to obscure how the paintbrush had actually been used. I don't know where the cord was tested for DNA (actually I had wondered for years why they didn't test it where it was tied to the paintbrush -- and now, according to kolar, they did), but I agree that if all of it was tested and there was no BR DNA, it would pretty much discount this scenario.




Oh, DD, I really hate to disagree with you but...

As many times as you and I have discussed it, you know I'm aware of the "V" pattern that is common in a typical hanging. But that "V" is only present when the person's full body is suspended completely off the ground. I'm not talking about a typical hanging, but what is technically called a partial hanging or a partial suspension (Google it -- I'm not making it up.). This is a pretty gruesome description because it is being suggested as a means of suicide, but you'll get the idea of what happens that is different from a complete suspension: http://jiutsu.motionsforum.com/t2-methods-partial-hanging-suspension

The final position of the ligature (in the deep furrow) is obviously not from a hanging. I agree. But the blanched area we have discussed so many times before is where I believe she was first strangled. Look at the angle that goes from the front where the blanching occurs to the back where it disappears into the area where the furrow is in the back of her neck. This would be a classic hanging mark had the ligature been left there. But it was moved to the perfectly horizontal position, with no pulling and therefore completely circumferential, where it remained until her body was "discovered" twelve hours later.

Now... Where did that part come in about the cord being wrapped around her neck several times? This is something new to me. Was that something in Kolar's book? I hadn't heard that.




Et tu, Brute? See above.
.

otg,
I reckon you are correct about the V pattern stuff. Its presence is normally used to distinuish vertical hanging from autoerotic asphyxiation, where relatives usually claim they cut their relative down etc.

The blanched area is like the blood on JonBenet's pillow. It requires some explaining, and what you suggest is fine.

I'm just wondering if assuming a BDI Burke using the ligature attempts to strangle JonBenet fails, thereby causing the blanched area, so then after a period of time, close to 90 minutes, he has constructed the garrote and uses this to asphyxiate JonBenet possibly by placing a foot on her back and pulling upwards?



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[otg]

otg,
I reckon you are correct about the V pattern stuff. Its presence is normally used to distinuish vertical hanging from autoerotic asphyxiation, where relatives usually claim they cut their relative down etc.

The blanched area is like the blood on JonBenet's pillow. It requires some explaining, and what you suggest is fine.

I'm just wondering if assuming a BDI Burke using the ligature attempts to strangle JonBenet fails, thereby causing the blanched area, so then after a period of time, close to 90 minutes, he has constructed the garrote and uses this to asphyxiate JonBenet possibly by placing a foot on her back and pulling upwards?

.

In any scenario, the blanched area has to be explained. Can we agree on that? The blanched area represents where something was pressing on the skin perimortem/postmortem.

So look at the available photos (hopefully I don't need to post them again). Look at where the cord would be at the front of her neck if it were in the blanched out area. Now, if you look at where the white line continues on around the side of her neck, you see that it is going in an upward direction as it goes to the back. We can't see where it ends because it disappears into the area where the furrow is in the back. Without seeing the back part, we don't know if it would be visible were the furrow not there, or if it would not be visible because it would be the familiar "V" found in other hangings (IOW, where the knot was being pulled away from her neck). This type of pattern is not likely in any type of strangulation done where the assailant is pulling on the ligature, because the tendency would not be to pull up -- but rather away from the victim.

In this type of hanging (one where the victim is not dropped from a long distance), the person doesn't die quickly from a broken neck. In fact, it could take quite some time before death actually occurs. But within seconds, unconsciousness will happen -- this because of one of three possible responses -- each of which results in a loss of oxygen -- asphyxia, hypoxia, or it can be the famous (but sometimes disputed) vagus nerve response (AKA, carotid sinus reflex).

Back to your final thought ("...he has constructed the garrote and uses this to asphyxiate JonBenet possibly by placing a foot on her back and pulling upwards.")... As tight as the ligature is that was found on JonBenet's body, it would not be necessary to continue pulling on the cord after the slipknot had tightened. Also, after the cord is tightened and released, it would remain in place allowing for the circumferential placement. I would contend though that this second placement of the ligature was unnecessary for its purpose. For the other placement to be blanched as we see it, it would have to be in place postmortem, or otherwise the blood would have returned to the surface of the skin thereby flushing away the white area. My question here would be whether the ligature moved on its own as it overcame the laryngeal prominence -- or was it moved by someone in their attempt at staging. That is the only question I have about it in this scenario.
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[OpenMind4U]

In any scenario, the blanched area has to be explained. respectfully skiped

otg,

You probably knows my theory already (see post #64). IMO, the 'staging' was done with the items already been used in actual attack (paintbrush, rope). To re-use these item in 'staging' is the critical event to hide the actual purpose of their existance. Therefore, IMO, the rope was already on JBR neck when 'staging' started. And the paintbrush (as an instrument of acute injury) MUST be destroyed from it's original form (hence, brake it!) to point to other purposes (hence, 'garrotte').

If you agree on the above then let's talk about the rope now. We have the sexuallly-oriented 'snapshot' here, right? What role could rope play in SEXUALLY-oriented 'play'? I think you know where I'm going. And I'll not going to link here any MM examples of bandages. So, let's assum that rope was on JBR for that purpose before the 'staging' begins. Now, I have a question (in regards of blanched area): is it possible this area is NOT occures postmortem as you suggests? What if this area is 'blanched' and appears as postmortem action because JBR head trauma has altered the blood flow and hence makes-look like postportem?!....Is it possible???

 

[midwest mama]

Thanks Koldkase, I appreciate the answer. I had seen the photos of the mucous before, but I guess I didn't think of it as being bloody enough to leave a bloody mark on a pillow, if you see what I mean? I assumed it was more dilute than it clearly was.

I can't quite process how this fits in..was she bashed elsewhere, moved to her bed and then to the basement? seems quite a drawn out route?

So much in this case is beyond explanation that there being a drawn out route shouldn't be any surprise.

 

[otg]

otg,

You probably knows my theory already (see post #64). IMO, the 'staging' was done with the items already been used in actual attack (paintbrush, rope). To re-use these item in 'staging' is the critical event to hide the actual purpose of their existance. Therefore, IMO, the rope was already on JBR neck when 'staging' started. And the paintbrush (as an instrument of acute injury) MUST be destroyed from it's original form (hence, brake it!) to point to other purposes (hence, 'garrotte').

Yes, I agree with all the above, OM4U. I believe we are "on the same page" (as we say in U.S.). What you state is what (I think) many people miss in the purpose of staging. Its purpose is to distract. Rather than let investigators know what was used to cause the vaginal injuries, use the same object somehow to divert attention to it in some other way. And this might have worked had it not been for a small splinter of wood that was found in JonBenet. But then, the stager(s) could not have know that.

If you agree on the above then let's talk about the rope now. We have the sexuallly-oriented 'snapshot' here, right?

Agreed. IMO, this all began because of sexual motivation -- not jealosy, not anger, and certainly not a kidnapping. Everything happened because of sex, sex, sex. Not intercourse or masturbation, but sexual curiosity.

What role could rope play in SEXUALLY-oriented 'play'? I think you know where I'm going.

:blushing:

And I'll not going to link here any MM examples of bandages.

Thank you for not linking, I think we both know what you are talking about. And for the benefit of others reading along here, I think what OM4U meant in the above bolded was "S&M examples of bondage". And let me add here that this is certainly not an area of expertise that I have any knowledge of whatsoever. :angel:

So, let's assume that rope was on JBR for that purpose before the 'staging' begins.

You can assume that, and I'll play along for the sake of debate, but I don't think that was the case. That is something I believe way too "advanced" or "sophisticated" (not really a good word I can think of here to express what I mean) considering the immaturity of the rest of the sexual aspects. But the reason doesn't matter, the fact is the same that we both are thinking that the cord is around her neck at this point in time. I see it as more of the "game" that was said by PR that they had played before where BR would lead her around with a leash as a person would with a pet animal. Then what do you do with your "pet" when you want them to stay in one place?

Now, I have a question (in regards of blanched area): is it possible this area is NOT occures postmortem as you suggests? What if this area is 'blanched' and appears as postmortem action because JBR head trauma has altered the blood flow and hence makes-look like postportem?!....Is it possible???

I can't say for certain, because I'm no expert at this either. I'm just struggling here trying to get along in a tank with a lot smarter fish than I (I hope I didn't lose you there in the analogy, OM4U.). However, with my understanding of this, theoretically the blanching would remain as long as the blood is not flowing -- whether because of death, or because of some other factor (I'm sure DeeDee249 will want to weigh in on this, and I'll look forward to hearing from her on it.). The answer I think would be whether enough blood flow could be blocked while alive and then remain blocked until after death has occurred waitasec: but then it would become postmortem). What it comes down to is whether or not the blood has a chance to return to the blanched area.

I hope that makes sense to you, because I'm starting to confuse myself.
:banghead:
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[OpenMind4U]

I believe we are "on the same page"

I'm so glad!....

I'll play along for the sake of debate, but I don't think that was the case. That is something I believe way too "advanced" or "sophisticated".

(not really a good word I can think of here to express what I mean) considering the immaturity of the rest of the sexual aspects. But the reason doesn't matter, the fact is the same that we both are thinking that the cord is around her neck at this point in time. I see it as more of the "game" that was said by PR that they had played before where BR would lead her around with a leash as a person would with a pet animal. Then what do you do with your "pet" when you want them to stay in one place?

No problem here, agree. Would support the same purpose plus would add the child's element of imagination. In regards of 'blanching'...

I can't say for certain, because I'm no expert at this either. I'm just struggling here trying to get along in a tank with a lot smarter fish than I (I hope I didn't lose you there in the analogy, OM4U.). However, with my understanding of this, theoretically the blanching would remain as long as the blood is not flowing -- whether because of death, or because of some other factor (DeeDee249 will wI'm sure ant to weigh in on this, and I'll look forward to hearing from her on it.). The answer I think would be whether enough blood flow could be blocked while alive and then remain blocked until after death has occurred waitasec: but then it would become postmortem). What it comes down to is whether or not the blood has a chance to return to the blanched area.

I hope that makes sense to you, because I'm starting to confuse myself.
:banghead:
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It DOES make sense to me. I couldn't wait to hear from DD. One other small detail to consider. IMO, the original position of the rope while playing 'let's pretend you're a kitten' game was while JBR was standing aka 'vertical position of the body'. And whoever holds the 'kitten leash' wasn't tall enough therofore no sufficient 'V' mark is present but it would certaintly support the possible explanation of the scratch marks done by JBR nails on front (if it's really the nail's scratch marks!). So, at the moment of the head blow (FORCE TO THE BODY!!!) and up to JBR body is falling aka changed to 'horizontal position of the body', the pressure of the rope to the neck MUST be INCREASED, almost to the point of short-term strangulation (kind of 'mini' strangulation), you know what I mean? Would you agree? And if you do agree then you and DD should consider this short-term strangulation in addition to the changes in the blood pressure after the head blow in solving the 'blanching'.

I hope I didn't confuse you, others and...myself.....lease: