Trial Discussion Thread #36 - 14.05.09 Day 29

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One of my biggest issues regarding Reeva screaming is the multi-pronged approach by the defence, seemingly changing, depending on whose been testifying.

First, it was implied during Burger's testimony that the head shot was first and precluded Reeva from ever screaming at all. Then it was suggested that it was Oscar screaming like a woman (but some witnesses also heard a man yelling at the same time). And all the experts agree Reeva was shot in the hip first. Then the defence produces witnesses who heard a high-pitched man that was never confused for a woman, crying, not screaming. (And before we devolve into a semantics game of crying vs. screaming, it was Roux himself to use the argument in cross that the nearest neighbour never heard screaming but did hear crying. Roux thereby suggests there is obviously a difference between the two.)

All JMO

Please pardon errors as posted via Tapatalk with a less than stellar user.

So I guess DT started to think that Oscar would have more credibility saying he sounds like a woman when he cries rather than screams..JMO

Still trying to catch up :)
 
I just googled testis compositium. Very interesting as I had never heard of it before now. Insulin for humans used to be made from the pancreas of pigs. So it leads me to wonder if there is benefit from the testosterone of pigs to humans. I did not read further to see if there were double blind studies performed. If there is a benefit, based on the effects of testosterone on the human body, it furthers my belief that it was Reeva screaming and not a high pitched scream from OP. JMV

Roux should have gone with OP "squeals like a pig" when upset.
 
Can NPD ever be viewed as true mental illness rather than a "condition"? If the psychologist were to come up with that diagnosis, will OP get off with a lighter sentence than a "normal" person, though I don't ever feel anyone can be considered truly normal if they can commit murder.

From my understanding though, wouldn't any claim of a mental issue like NPD or PTSD only be useful if he admitted to killing her in a rage?.
 
So much for his God fearing religious background and his claim that he is a Christian. If he doesn't repent at some stage, preferably before the end of the trial (I don't see that happening), he must fear what lies ahead, though I doubt that he will repent until he is on his deathbed. I would like to be proved wrong.

I should point out I am a Humanist and I really don't intend to bring religion onto the forum. So this is the last you will hear me mention it. I just get a little mad when there are a few, like OP, who feel they can buck their religious beliefs until the last moment (or until it suits them) and feel that their god will forgive them something so hideous as murder. At the moment I think OP is in complete denial. I really do think he feels he is not guilty. Does that make him mentally ill?
BBM - I agree. I think he believes he was 'forced' into that position by Reeva, and if she hadn't have done whatever it was he thinks she did (argued with him, 'disobeyed' him, 'disrespected' him) - then he wouldn't have got angry and had to shoot her. So in his mind, this isn't really his fault. And let's not forget how he said if only Reeva had spoken to him from behind the toilet door, he wouldn't have shot. He does have an uncanny way of shifting responsibility onto anyone and everyone except himself. And because of that, I don't see him ever taking responsibility for what he's done. Sure, he's sorry he got caught and had to "put his life on hold" :violin: to go on trial for murder, despite 'failing' to see how he could be tried for murder - but I honestly don't feel he gives a rat's bum for Reeva. She's just an annoying obstacle in the way of his freedom, and I think his lack of compassion and humility towards Kim Myers (who was very close to Reeva) shows that he's still exactly the same person he was when he reached for his gun and shot Reeva dead. Angry, entitled, selfish and above the law.
 
Bear in mind that in homeopathy the actual substance is not present at all. Bear in mind too that the ingredients of this product, both animal-derived and plant-derived, are all well-known to enhance (either really or allegedly) one main thing: sex drive.
Maybe that's why he was looking at *advertiser censored* 20 minutes after he got home!
 
Can NPD ever be viewed as true mental illness rather than a "condition"? If the psychologist were to come up with that diagnosis, will OP get off with a lighter sentence than a "normal" person, though I don't ever feel anyone can be considered truly normal if they can commit murder.

Good question. I don't think it's a condition that excuses criminal behavior, unless he'd been delusional at the time. He should have claimed he'd had a horrible "hurdle" day, taken serious meds to help him sleep, had a nightmare of someone stealing his Olympic medals, trying to escape with them out the toilet window, and he'd fired warning shots blindly through the WC door ... while still asleep. That makes more sense than the tale he came up with imo.
 
Can NPD ever be viewed as true mental illness rather than a "condition"? If the psychologist were to come up with that diagnosis, will OP get off with a lighter sentence than a "normal" person, though I don't ever feel anyone can be considered truly normal if they can commit murder.
Strictly speaking, NPD is a psychiatric disorder. Unlike mental illness though, it's largely resistant to treatment, in part, due to the nature of the disorder itself. Most people whom are disordered feel they don't need help. In some cases of borderline personality disorder (closely related to NPD) there has been some limited success with cognitive behavioral therapy. This does nothing to treat the disorder per se, but does give someone disordered better strategies and coping mechanisms for things like self-harming, very common in borderline.

To someone who lives with someone disordered, I think it's really hard to see it as true mental illness, especially with narcissistic and antisocial. I'm heavily biased in that regard. I struggle to see my ex as anything other than evil - and I'm not being hyperbolic. APD/NPD leads to a particularly nasty individual extremely skilled at manipulation and capable of immense cruelty. What I don't often openly admit is that my ex was actually charged with and eventually plead guilty (to receive a reduced sentence) to drugging and raping his then 14 year old niece. This was a girl whose diapers he'd changed as a baby and often had rocked her to sleep. He blamed me for it, because after a decade of an extremely abusive marriage, I'd left him a few weeks before he raped her. I think this shows to what extremes someone disordered (APD/NPD) is capable of - no one and nothing else matters except themselves, what they want, and when they want it.

There's only one case I know of in which a diagnosis of narcissistic personality disorder has been used to some success - Brian Blackwell was convicted of manslaughter instead of murder but his sentence is still stiff. Because of the nature of the disorder, I would highly doubt many defence psychologists would put this diagnosis forward, even if it's an accurate one. If you followed the Jodi Arias trial, the State psychologist diagnosed her as borderline. The defence refuted that diagnosis but under cross was forced to admit personality disorder, other. Essentially, such a diagnosis can be fatal to a defence because while it is a disorder, it's impossible to separate it from the actual character of the person. I've said it's like cancer - it takes over the original personality. All of the cluster B's are 'known' for their manipulation and sometimes deceit. It's not a good dx to illustrate innocence, in my opinion.

Blackwell was charged with murder and was due to stand trial; however, that charge was dropped after he pleaded guilty to the lesser charge of manslaughter on the ground of diminished responsibility after experts diagnosed him with narcissistic personality disorder. An episode of narcissistic rage can occur when the narcissist is perceivably being prevented from accomplishing his grandiose fantasies. Blackwell was sentenced to life imprisonment on 29 June 2005. This was the first case in an English court in which narcissistic personality disorder had been found to be a defence to murder.

Brian Blackwell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
I am unsure how many know about the good Judge Christopher Greenland's site on You Tube. Lots of the legal round table discussions together with others. I have found them all very interesting. Many raise issues we cover here. This is the link

http://www.youtube.com/user/chrisng53

Thanks for that link. If Judge Greenland were judging OP, I'd feel more confident about the outcome.
 
From my understanding though, wouldn't any claim of a mental issue like NPD or PTSD only be useful if he admitted to killing her in a rage?.

I really don't know. If he is unable to admit anything due to a personality disorder I am unsure he would be admitting to killing her in a rage.... would he?? I wondered whether a psychiatrist could report to the court that in his/her opinion OP suffered from NPD, whether OP agreed to it or not, and what effect that could have on sentencing.
 
Can NPD ever be viewed as true mental illness rather than a "condition"? If the psychologist were to come up with that diagnosis, will OP get off with a lighter sentence than a "normal" person, though I don't ever feel anyone can be considered truly normal if they can commit murder.

I bet m'lady will recognize the NPD in OP, and I hope will recognize the danger to others he represents. She's heard his opinion of the Stipps, his former friends, his claim that confronting danger "Is who I am", Reeva's heart-breaking msgs to him. And hopefully you won't allow him to walk free anytime soon.
 
I really don't know. If he is unable to admit anything due to a personality disorder I am unsure he would be admitting to killing her in a rage.... would he?? I wondered whether a psychiatrist could report to the court that in his/her opinion OP suffered from NPD, whether OP agreed to it or not, and what effect that could have on sentencing.

I agree he will never ever admit to killing her in a rage.
What i mean is i don't understand how those condition's could be used to justify his version, aren't they not more commonly linked with outburst's of violence?.
I can see how they could claim NPD/PTSD lead to him killing her in a rage, but i fail to see how it could have affected him in his version.
 
From my understanding though, wouldn't any claim of a mental issue like NPD or PTSD only be useful if he admitted to killing her in a rage?.
PTSD would a) be difficult to prove and b) you can't really 'prove' what traumatic event caused it apart from what the patient (defendant) claims. He may very well actually have PTSD, but who's to say that it isn't from murdering his girlfriend, KWIM?

NPD would/could imo only be useful to illustrate a narcissistic rage people with NPD are well known for...but they'd also be admitting many perceived character flaws in the process most people have a hard time sympathising or empathising with. Superiority, grandiosity, self-centredness, etc.

JMO
 
"Your jacket, your jacket, your jacket, your jacket"
"I prefer to stand m'lady"
:floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh:
 
Strictly speaking, NPD is a psychiatric disorder. Unlike mental illness though, it's largely largely resistant to treatment, in part, due to the nature of the disorder itself. Most people whom are disordered feel they don't need help. In some cases of borderline personality disorder (closely related to NPD) there has been some limited success with cognitive behavioral therapy. This does nothing to treat the disorder per se, but does give someone disordered better strategies and coping mechanisms for things like self-harming, very common in borderline.

To someone who lives with someone disordered, I think it's really hard to see it as true mental illness, especially with narcissistic and antisocial. I'm heavily biased in that regard. I struggle to see my ex as anything other than evil - and I'm not being hyperbolic. APD/NPD leads to a particularly nasty individual extremely skilled at manipulation and capable of immense cruelty. What I don't often openly admit is that my ex was actually charged with and eventually plead guilty (to receive a reduced sentence) to drugging and raping his then 14 year old niece. This was a girl whose diapers he'd changed as a baby and often had rocked her to sleep. He blamed me for it, because after a decade of an extremely abusive marriage, I'd left him a few weeks before he raped her. I think this shows to what extremes someone disordered (APD/NPD) is capable of - no one and nothing else matters except themselves, what they want, and when they want it.

There's only one case I know of in which a diagnosis of narcissistic personality disorder has been used to some success - Brian Blackwell was convicted of manslaughter instead of murder but his sentence is still stiff. Because of the nature of the disorder, I would highly doubt many defence psychologists would put this diagnosis forward, even if it's an accurate one. If you followed the Jodi Arias trial, the State psychologist diagnosed her as borderline. The defence refuted that diagnosis but under cross was forced to admit personality disorder, other. Essentially, such a diagnosis can be fatal to a defence because while it is a disorder, it's impossible to separate it from the actual character of the person. I've said it's like cancer - it takes over the original personality. All of the cluster B's are 'known' for their manipulation and sometimes deceit. It's not a good dx to illustrate innocence, in my opinion.



Brian Blackwell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thanks you for the input. Much appreciated. We have a 'family friend' who suffers from borderline personality disorder. She can be charming one moment and horrendous the next. Much like OP. She can be abusive to all around her, her children especially, has attempted suicide on a number of occasions when she feels as though she is not getting her own way. Her temper is something to behold and she has no insight. Inevitably the marriage broke down and one of the children lives with us, another with a friend's parents as the children cannot tolerate the situation at home. I hasten to add we and the other carers are only doors apart so the children, who are teenagers see each other regularly. What really troubles me is that this woman's mother was exactly the same and I worry that there is an element of genetics in the disease.
 
I was watching WW's Friday testimony and was amazed how close to him Mangena was. He was right below Wollie looking up in expectation, as if thinking, "Please don't disappoint me, Uncle W, by lying." I hope there's an excuse for Nel to seat Mangena in that same spot on Monday.
 
I was watching WW's Friday testimony and was amazed how close to him Mangena was. He was right below Wollie looking up in expectation, as if thinking, "Please don't disappoint me, Uncle W, by lying." I hope there's an excuse for Nel to seat Mangena in that same spot on Monday.

BIB. The ballistics laser equipment and the trajectory rods were Magena's responsibility, so he needed to be near the door.
 
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