Trial Discussion Thread #36 - 14.05.09 Day 29

[Giles]

Yes, that is by far the best stand-alone piece of evidence against OP's version IMHO. This was raised here at WS well before that article - by Jake18 and others. Saayman said "a few more breaths after the head shot", and even the DT’s own witness, Jan Botha, said "death ensued very quickly after sustaining the head injury” (note: these are not exact quotes). Very powerful statements uncontested (and even endorsed) by the DT.

Pistorius said at trial "She was sitting with her weight on top of the toilet bowl. I checked to see if she was breathing and she wasn't … I pulled her weight on to me and I sat there crying for some time. I felt her head on my shoulder and I could feel the blood running down me. … I thought I felt her breathing. I could see her arm was broken. … I was trying to pick Reeva up. I could see she was still breathing. She was struggling to breathe.”

From the affidavit “I put on my prosthetic legs, ran back to the bathroom and tried to kick the toilet door open. I think I must then have turned on the lights. I went back into the bedroom and grabbed my cricket bat to bash open the toilet door. A panel or panels broke off and I found the key on the floor and unlocked and opened the door. Reeva was slumped over but alive.”

So from affidavit to trial, OP has been consistent on this point.

From first bangs to "she was still breathing" we’re talking about what, a time interval from 3:00 - 3:15, 3:00 - 3:20? That simply isn’t possible if the only shots fired are in the 3:00 am zone - as the DT wants us to believe - given the statements by the two pathologists, who have not been challenged on this.

Now the DT has tried to push those “first shots” out to 3:05 or something. That’s my recollection. Maybe they are dimly aware of the glaring problem here.

What’s amazing is Nel hasn’t pounded the table on this. Why not? We have people sipping coffee at keyboards figuring his out while Nel is busy spraying mist at laser beams. Very strange.

I think this is fairly strong evidence too. I am sure Nel will be bringing this up in his closing argument. I wonder whether Oscar is telling the truth about his recollections of her breathing, struggling for breath and dying in his arms on the stairs or trying to bolster his image of caring for her and desperately trying to save her.

BBM - Certainly, the whole timeline of evidence is devastating for Oscar as it appears on the surface. IMO, the Defense need to push the 'first shots' nearer to 3:12am. The Stipp's evidence is crucial in this regard. Mrs Stipp was certain of the 3:02am time (and the clock a few minutes fast). However, IIRC, all other testimony of the screams was more vague in the timings - "shortly after 3am".

I thought Mrs Stipp struggled to fill in the 15 minutes (between 3:02 and 3:17am) standing on the balconies listening to the screaming. Dr Stipp's testimony suggested a much shorter interval between the two sets of noises. Perhaps Mrs Stipp dozed off for a few minutes after looking at the clock, perhaps finding her flu medicine took longer than she remembered, perhaps she saw the clock at 03:12am and misremembered. I don't know, but I'm certain this has to be the Defense's angle on the timings.

 

[Interested Bystander]

I agree he will never ever admit to killing her in a rage.
What i mean is i don't understand how those condition's could be used to justify his version, aren't they not more commonly linked with outburst's of violence?.
I can see how they could claim NPD/PTSD lead to him killing her in a rage, but i fail to see how it could have affected him in his version.

He would not allow his version to show him to be anything other than normal.
That is part of the syndrome or whatever one likes to call it.

With respect to PTSD, that wouldn't have led him to kill her as it would be post the murder and it would be quite normal for someone other than perhaps a psychopath to suffer from it but he is known to have been enjoying himself on holiday, been out for week-ends with friends, seen drinking (which he says he never does) and has a new girlfriend. Did you see Day 1 of the trial. He waltzed in, cool, calm and collected as though nothing had happened, smiling all the way. To me, he has moved on and I don't think he had true PTSD now.

My opinion is that he has a new syndrome brought on by the case coming to court. POBCOM (petrified of being convicted of murder) :bricks:.

 

[44ALLAN]

Does anybody have a sense of whether the defense 'scream' evidence is still coming? I think they've succeeded in leaving it an open question with the recent neighbour testimony, but if the issue is left at that I think they step into a hole I don't currently perceive them to be in.

Well I'm no lawyer but....................................

5 x witnesses heard a woman screaming before Reeva was shot with 3 bullets through a locked door................fact up till now.

Roux is wrapping up the defence case on Tuesday and so far he has forwarded in defence of his client..................

1). OP himself trying to show the 'screaming like a woman'........'get the f out of my house'..............totally and I mean totally embarrassing when he tried that in court.............good try though fgs !!!

2). 2 x woman witnesses wailing like banshees without any explanation from Roux whatsoever about why they did it and what it was supposed to replicate ?

So in answer to your question IMO........................No. it's too late because he cannot get rid of the woman screaming and the witnesses who heard it.

 

[BritsKate]

Thanks you for the input. Much appreciated. We have a 'family friend' who suffers from borderline personality disorder. She can be charming one moment and horrendous the next. Much like OP. She can be abusive to all around her, her children especially, has attempted suicide on a number of occasions when she feels as though she is not getting her own way. Her temper is something to behold and she has no insight. Inevitably the marriage broke down and one of the children lives with us, another with a friend's parents as the children cannot tolerate the situation at home. I hasten to add we and the other carers are only doors apart so the children, who are teenagers see each other regularly. What really troubles me is that this woman's mother was exactly the same and I worry that there is an element of genetics in the disease.

It's so good of you to take care of the kids involved. It's bad enough for adults involved, but children with a disordered parent face a different kind of torment. They're so often rejected by the parent and when not, manipulated and (at least psychologically) abused to the nth degree instead. My mental health nurse husband would agree the genetic link...my ex-MIL is highly manipulative herself and is in a very deep denial over the actions of her son. My ex was quite horrifically abused as a child so she excuses a lot of his behavior. I think if she were to accept it, she'd also have to fully own her role for what he became. At any rate, when my ex was going through the court process and my niece was in counseling, my ex-MIL was lamenting for all who would listen how it was her life falling apart. So yes, I think there's a lot to suggest you could well be correct. There is at least a high level of toxicity and dysfunction if nothing else. I've seen some worrying traits in my 14 year old too though - she's in counseling - but she also has immense compassion not normally associated with someone disordered so I'm hoping beyond hope she outgrows my concerns. I'm a strong believer that nurture can beat nature.

**Sorry everybody for the O/T. Not often I 'meet' someone I can compare stories about PD with. Thanks, IB! :blowkiss:**

 

[james83]

He would not allow his version to show him to be anything other than normal.
That is part of the syndrome or whatever one likes to call it.

With respect to PTSD, that wouldn't have led him to kill her as it would be post the murder and it would be quite normal for someone other than perhaps a psychopath to suffer from it but he is known to have been enjoying himself on holiday, been out for week-ends with friends, seen drinking (which he says he never does) and has a new girlfriend. Did you see Day 1 of the trial. He waltzed in, cool, calm and collected as though nothing had happened, smiling all the way. To me, he has moved on and I don't think he had true PTSD now.

My opinion is that he has a new syndrome brought on by the case coming to court. POBCOM (petrified of being convicted of murder) :bricks:.

It's been suggested that the PTSD could have been a result of his boat accident which i don't buy into at all.
BIB Agree 100%.

 

[whiterum]

IIRC OP added the bizarre detail of waking up, and before his eyes were open, scrubbing his face as he walked to retrieve the fans, and then always facing away from the bed until the moment he went for the gun. Absurd.

Yes, I remember thinking when he said that, how on earth would anyone remember the particular time they were rubbing their face. What a lame excuse for not seeing Reeva !

 

[Viper]

I was watching WW's Friday testimony and was amazed how close to him Mangena was. He was right below Wollie looking up in expectation, as if thinking, "Please don't disappoint me, Uncle W, by lying." I hope there's an excuse for Nel to seat Mangena in that same spot on Monday.

BIB. Deb, Magena already knew, before W took the stand, that he was going to not exactly lie, but rather he was going to find a feasible way of interpreting the ballistics in OPs favor. W does not care at all what happens to OP, but his job is to tell Masipa some alternative version of interpreting the ballistic evidence.

After this case is over Magena will poke fun at what W said during this trial, and W will laugh at himself in front of Magena. That W referenced, with such detail, his relationship with Magena, told me that he was A) trying to link his credibility to Magena's or B) trying to hint to Magena that he respected him. I will go with A first, and B as a side note, because W really did seem like a bumbling caricature on the stand.

The funniest moment was when W asked for a gun so that he could demonstrate how a semi automatic handgun works. Everyone looked around and it turns out that no one had a gun. Then Masipa said, "Good." I had half expected that if no one else was armed Judge Masipa would lend him her gun that she keeps under the bench! LOL!

 

[whiterum]

I bet m'lady will recognize the NPD in OP, and I hope will recognize the danger to others he represents. She's heard his opinion of the Stipps, his former friends, his claim that confronting danger "Is who I am", Reeva's heart-breaking msgs to him. And hopefully you won't allow him to walk free anytime soon.

Exactly having killed he would be deemed a danger to society and he would certainly be detained, if not imprisoned for a very long time.

 

[Feynman]

I just googled testis compositium. Very interesting as I had never heard of it before now. Insulin for humans used to be made from the pancreas of pigs. So it leads me to wonder if there is benefit from the testosterone of pigs to humans. I did not read further to see if there were double blind studies performed. If there is a benefit, based on the effects of testosterone on the human body, it furthers my belief that it was Reeva screaming and not a high pitched scream from OP. JMV

Testis suis is not pig testosterone, it's pig testicle. If the tablets are any indication, only one one-millionth of Testis Compositum is testis suis. That's the way homeopathy works; less is more, and therefore way way less is awesome. Plus you use fancy Latin words for ingredients. Testis Compositum is not banned by any anti-doping agency.

Check out the homeopathic ER here: Homeopathic Emergency Department - YouTube

 

[Ncl1968]

Is it normal to drag your girlfriend out of the toilet after you shot her by accident? By all accounts check if she's alive phone police /ambulance stay with her. cry/ talk/ wail like a banshee.. But to remove her and in the process mess up the crime scene and whilst your at it remove the bullet ridden panels from the door just to make it a little harder for them to work out what you done..
If you genuinely make a mistake and police are gonna be involved then all your senses tell you not to do what he did to a crime scene it just smells off a cover up effort

 

[james83]

BIB. Deb, Magena already knew, before W took the stand, that he was going to not exactly lie, but rather he was going to find a feasible way of interpreting the ballistics in OPs favor. W does not care at all what happens to OP, but his job is to tell Masipa some alternative version of interpreting the ballistic evidence.

After this case is over Magena will poke fun at what W said during this trial, and W will laugh at himself in front of Magena. That W referenced, with such detail, his relationship with Magena, told me that he was A) trying to link his credibility to Magena's or B) trying to hint to Magena that he respected him. I will go with A first, and B as a side note, because W really did seem like a bumbling caricature on the stand.

The funniest moment was when W asked for a gun so that he could demonstrate how a semi automatic handgun works. Everyone looked around and it turns out that no one had a gun. Then Masipa said, "Good." I had half expected that if no one else was armed Judge Masipa would lend him her gun that she keeps under the bench! LOL!

Would have been epic if Oscar had stood up and said "Here you go Wollie", lol.

 

[44ALLAN]

If you were wondering if I'm another poster. No, I'm not.
(But I also know that my denial will make some even more suspicious. Standard Forum Protocol/Paranoia)

I've been reading here since about day 18 of the trial or so, but someone wondered about the background of Nel / Wolmarans yesterday, so I just decided to join as member to answer that, as I know a bit about that first-hand....

Barnacle is a standard username I use and if its not available, I use BarnacleZA... This persona also has twitter and facebook accounts. I have made other Oscar related posts on my own website some time ago...

Your sussed mate.............your goose is well and truly cooked

 

[Zuri]

Please excuse my ignorance as I am sure this has been asked and answered, but I am curious as to how OP knew where to shoot through the door to strike Reeva? If he really thought it was an intruder, wouldn't he have shot more than 4 times and in not so narrow a pattern? TIA

 

[DebinGA]

BIB. The ballistics laser equipment and the trajectory rods were Magena's responsibility, so he needed to be near the door.

Makes sense. I hope Mangena needs to be there tomorrow too. Iirc they ended at a pivotal spot with Nel claiming there was no place for Reeva's head in WW's scenario. Looking forward to more demos by Wollie, especially a reprise of his Reeva falling back, chin upraised, but this time asked to demonstrate how her head wound then pooled blood into the toilet.

 

[44ALLAN]

We're not going to get that, and if we do, it will remain highly subjective. Burger, Johnson, and the Stipps would have been the best witnesses to compare - albeit highly risky too.

Further, the fact that only one defence witness testified to hearing one bang is problematic for the defence. Four gunshots are absolutely not in dispute so clearly they did not hear the entire course of events. Ergo, they do nothing to refute a woman screaming before the bangs at all - they do bolster that Oscar was emotional after shooting Reeva dead, which was never in dispute. I believe the primary motivation of having the Standers, the social worker and neighbours testify was two-pronged. First, to suggest because he was so emotional, it can be inferred he didn't intend to kill Reeva and by extension, didn't premeditate her murder. Second, to sway public sentiment. They don't actually refute the State's evidence, or even bolster reasonable doubt, because the screams occurred before the bangs the defence witnesses never heard.

MOO

Please pardon errors as posted via Tapatalk with a less than stellar user.

Perfect explanation...............Hi Gerrie

 

[DebinGA]

BIB.
The funniest moment was when W asked for a gun so that he could demonstrate how a semi automatic handgun works. Everyone looked around and it turns out that no one had a gun. Then Masipa said, "Good." I had half expected that if no one else was armed Judge Masipa would lend him her gun that she keeps under the bench! LOL!

Oh my goodness, that was as funny now as then. I hope Mangena's presence keeps Wollie from straying too far from the truth though. His "anything could have happened" was a bridge too far from an expert imo.

 

[katydid23]

Yes, that is by far the best stand-alone piece of evidence against OP's version IMHO. This was raised here at WS well before that article - by Jake18 and others. Saayman said "a few more breaths after the head shot", and even the DT’s own witness, Jan Botha, said "death ensued very quickly after sustaining the head injury” (note: these are not exact quotes). Very powerful statements uncontested (and even endorsed) by the DT.

Pistorius said at trial "She was sitting with her weight on top of the toilet bowl. I checked to see if she was breathing and she wasn't … I pulled her weight on to me and I sat there crying for some time. I felt her head on my shoulder and I could feel the blood running down me. … I thought I felt her breathing. I could see her arm was broken. … I was trying to pick Reeva up. I could see she was still breathing. She was struggling to breathe.”

From the affidavit “I put on my prosthetic legs, ran back to the bathroom and tried to kick the toilet door open. I think I must then have turned on the lights. I went back into the bedroom and grabbed my cricket bat to bash open the toilet door. A panel or panels broke off and I found the key on the floor and unlocked and opened the door. Reeva was slumped over but alive.”

So from affidavit to trial, OP has been consistent on this point.

From first bangs to "she was still breathing" we’re talking about what, a time interval from 3:00 - 3:15, 3:00 - 3:20? That simply isn’t possible if the only shots fired are in the 3:00 am zone - as the DT wants us to believe - given the statements by the two pathologists, who have not been challenged on this.

Now the DT has tried to push those “first shots” out to 3:05 or something. That’s my recollection. Maybe they are dimly aware of the glaring problem here.

What’s amazing is Nel hasn’t pounded the table on this. Why not? We have people sipping coffee at keyboards figuring his out while Nel is busy spraying mist at laser beams. Very strange.

Maybe because he does not want to prematurely point out the discrepancy to the DT just yet. He doesn't want to give them a heads up and allow them the time to try and fix it during their case presentation. jmo

 

[Karmady]

Is it normal to drag your girlfriend out of the toilet after you shot her by accident? By all accounts check if she's alive phone police /ambulance stay with her. cry/ talk/ wail like a banshee.. But to remove her and in the process mess up the crime scene and whilst your at it remove the bullet ridden panels from the door just to make it a little harder for them to work out what you done..
If you genuinely make a mistake and police are gonna be involved then all your senses tell you not to do what he did to a crime scene it just smells off a cover up effort

And for me, this makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Putting myself in the position of a person who has mistakenly shot and likely killed a loved one instead of an intruder -- or pretty much anyone other than an intruder for that matter, The absolute last thing I would be worried about is preserving the "crime scene." I wouldn't even be thinking of my actions as a crime and the bathroom as a crime scene. jmo

 

[soozieqtips]

Please excuse my ignorance as I am sure this has been asked and answered, but I am curious as to how OP knew where to shoot through the door to strike Reeva? If he really thought it was an intruder, wouldn't he have shot more than 4 times and in not so narrow a pattern? TIA

BBM - He stopped shooting once the screaming that he never heard... stopped. He didn't have a reason for why he stopped shooting when Nel asked him. Martin Hood, a defence attorney and firearms holder, said the grouping was quite small, and that if OP was in such a heightened state of mind (as he said he was) then there would have been a lot of shake (bearing in mind he was also allegedly shooting with one hand) and he would have expected a much more random grouping of shots. He also said the grouping indicated OP had much more control over the gun than he was prepared to admit.

 

[BritsKate]

Please excuse my ignorance as I am sure this has been asked and answered, but I am curious as to how OP knew where to shoot through the door to strike Reeva? If he really thought it was an intruder, wouldn't he have shot more than 4 times and in not so narrow a pattern? TIA

RBBM

It's good to 'see' you again, old friend. :hug: One would think though people who don't believe he's guilty of murder have stated they don't find it unusual that he didn't empty his gun. Strangely, he shot just enough times to stop the 'bloodcurdling screams of a woman' witnesses have testified to. Reeva's last scream died out with the last of the second set of bangs. He stated Reeva never screamed then admitted he couldn't hear so couldn't actually know she didn't. He also says he didn't intend to shoot, didn't aim, only pointed at the door and a whole bunch of other gobbledygook.

In terms of how he knew where to shoot, there's been some suggestion by quite a few here that he damaged the toilet door before ever firing and may have been able to see her. His aim most definitely changed after the first shot, for whatever reason.