Trial Discussion Thread #36 - 14.05.09 Day 29

[DebinGA]

Oscar fired a gun not a cannon he would have needed a lot more bullets to obliterate that door. The door was not a solid enough object for the hollow point bullets to expand.

I really don't know anyone other than the states witness and a few sources quoted here that consider Oscar's shots a tight grouping.

Wollie Wolmarans described the shots under oath as "a very small grouping on the door."

 

[Carmelita]

I think everyone here is asking why did he stop at four shots when the gun held 16...
Think about it... Why???

Hi I am reading backwards and there was a post where the poster said that they would have obliterated the door so a cricket bat would not be needed, that is what I responded to.

Anyhow I agree 4 shots and stopping seems unusual but I am not a crime follower so I don't know how common or uncommon it would be.

 

[44ALLAN]

Oscar fired a gun not a cannon he would have needed a lot more bullets to obliterate that door. The door was not a solid enough object for the hollow point bullets to expand.

I really don't know anyone other than the states witness and a few sources quoted here that consider Oscar's shots a tight grouping.

Oscar knew the capabilities of the bullets and what they would do to the person behind the door and well you know it.
Your 'obliterating' the door was not in his mind set at that time ..............well I really don't need to say anymore about your reasoning or thoughts it's your opinion and I respect it.

 

[Carmelita]

Wollie Wolmarans described the shots under oath as "a very small grouping on the door."

Thanks I would disagree with Woolie.

 

[Carmelita]

Oscar knew the capabilities of the bullets and what they would do to the person behind the door and well you know it.
Your 'obliterating' the door was not in his mind set at that time ..............well I really don't need to say anymore about your reasoning or thoughts it's your opinion and I respect it.

Again you are misunderstanding my post, I was responding to a poster who said if they had a gun the toilet door would have been obliterated, I simply stated a physical fact.

 

[Zuri]

I am looking for a source about OP's shots being a "tight grouping" after reading a comment to Zuri's question. A tight grouping his shots were NOT! It looked to me as if he went half way across the door.

Sorry, I know nothing about shooting a gun, so in the pics they looked narrow if you will, like not hi low side to side or random. I understand what a tight grouping is because of tv I guess, kinda like the center of a bullseye.

 

[james83]

Oscar fired a gun not a cannon he would have needed a lot more bullets to obliterate that door. The door was not a solid enough object for the hollow point bullets to expand.

I really don't know anyone other than the states witness and a few sources quoted here that consider Oscar's shots a tight grouping.

You don't think that's a tight grouping for a man on his stumps in the dark with only one hand on a gun which he wasn't aiming?.
Give me strength, if he fired that gun as he say's he did those bullet's would have gone all over the show.

 

[soozieqtips]

I am looking for a source about OP's shots being a "tight grouping" after reading a comment to Zuri's question. A tight grouping his shots were NOT! It looked to me as if he went half way across the door.

Are you talking about my post to Zuri? I said it was referred to as 'quite a small grouping' by Martin Hood. Not sure that 'quite small' means 'tight' - but then I'm not a gun owner.

 

[Viper]

I think the general consensus is that he shot where he would hit center mass: the center of a person. The toilet was a small cubicle, so it was likely he would hit someone/something.

Why he shot four times is a question I have had too. I assume he heard Reeva (the intruder) fall. There was a magazine rack that she apparently collapsed onto. Maybe someone here has a theory that's more specific.

Sorry, but no that is not the consensus. Or at least I am not included in that consensus. OP fired the first bullet at center mass, which would include Reeva's stomach, but he missed and instead hit her in the hip. I don't believe that he could see her through a crack in the door. There was a pause as he acquired his aim and then he fired the following three bullets targeted at her voice, her mouth, her head.

BTW. When OP was asked about where he would have fired if he had wanted to hit the intruder behind the door OP said he would have fired to the extreme right of the door near the door frame, above the handle.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Has this been posted before? Apologies if it has.

http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/arti...ill-the-real-oscar-pistorius-please-stand-up/

Analysis: Will the real Oscar Pistorius please stand up?

 

[Emz73]

Again you are misunderstanding my post, I was responding to a poster who said if they had a gun the toilet door would have been obliterated, I simply stated a physical fact.

I think the poster was just joking....you know humour. Sarcasm.

 

[Zuri]

Hi I am reading backwards and there was a post where the poster said that they would have obliterated the door so a cricket bat would not be needed, that is what I responded to.

Anyhow I agree 4 shots and stopping seems unusual but I am not a crime follower so I don't know how common or uncommon it would be.

I understand about that it was a gun not a cannon. I was essentially saying if someone was threatening to harm my children, I would empty the entire cache of bullets. Hence not needing a cricket bat. The use of only 4 bullets to me speaks of self control IYKWIM?

Perhaps I should say measured or calculated? Using me as an example, would not be either of those. Mine would be fear based which is why I do not own a gun.

 

[Emz73]

Thanks I would disagree with Woolie.

:drumroll:

 

[44ALLAN]

Again you are misunderstanding my post, I was responding to a poster who said if they had a gun the toilet door would have been obliterated, I simply stated a physical fact.

My apologies if that is the case................you do agree though that Oscar knew he was going to kill the person behind the door whoever it was don't you?

Yes or no will do

 

[soozieqtips]

I am looking for a source about OP's shots being a "tight grouping" after reading a comment to Zuri's question. A tight grouping his shots were NOT! It looked to me as if he went half way across the door.

BBM - Here you go. I typed it word for word from the Sky News round up a few threads ago.
Martin Hood is a defence attorney, expert witness, and licensed firearm holder.
-------------------------------

"The evidence has been that Oscar was shooting one handedly from a position where the gun was at his waist level, and in my experience, and I own more than one firearm, in order to shoot a group like that, you have to have a very firm grip on the firearm, and normally that group is with two hands. And the fact that the group is relatively small, shows that Oscar knew how to hold the firearm properly, and in all probability in my view, and if I were called to be an expert, I would say this -
he held it with two hands, and he held it very deliberately to get that grouping at that level.

When you're holding a firearm with one hand, and you're in that very excited state of mind that Pistorius said he was in,
you're going to have a lot of shake, and you're not going to get such a small group as that. It's going to be all over the place. The fact that it isn't, in my view suggests that he had far more control than he actually is prepared to admit".

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Trial Discussion Thread #29

 

[DebinGA]

Has this been posted before? Apologies if it has.

http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/arti...ill-the-real-oscar-pistorius-please-stand-up/

Analysis: Will the real Oscar Pistorius please stand up?

From that link:

Pistorius also said something intriguing in court on Wednesday, along the lines of: “The more famous I am doesn’t mean the more money I make”. He seemed to mean that a high profile alone was not a guaranteed money-spinner: only in combination with the right kind of image. It was for this reason, he said, that he didn’t want the story of the Tasha’s shooting reaching the media, because the media might “misinterpret” it.

Something happened that night that Reeva wouldn't tolerate and likely would repeat, ruining OP's brand. In his selfish mind it became an "it's either her or me, and I choose me" situation imo. The Tasha's incident was only weeks earlier.

 

[nastasya]

Oscar fired a gun not a cannon he would have needed a lot more bullets to obliterate that door. The door was not a solid enough object for the hollow point bullets to expand.

I really don't know anyone other than the states witness and a few sources quoted here that consider Oscar's shots a tight grouping.

Seriously???

How do you describe this?

It's not only a tight grouping, but an incredibly tight grouping all aimed directly at Reeva's head, with the exception of the first shot.

It defies all rational thinking to conclude that these shots were randomly fired in a state of terror, in the dark, not having any idea where the "intruder" was hiding and all ended up being aimed right at the "intruder's" heard.

 

[Zuri]

Here you go. I typed it word for word from the Sky News round up a few threads ago.
Martin Hood is a defence attorney, expert witness, and licensed firearm holder.
-------------------------------

"The evidence has been that Oscar was shooting one handedly from a position where the gun was at his waist level, and in my experience, and I own more than one firearm, in order to shoot a group like that, you have to have a very firm grip on the firearm, and normally that group is with two hands. And the fact that the group is relatively small, shows that Oscar knew how to hold the firearm properly, and in all probability in my view, and if I were called to be an expert, I would say this -
he held it with two hands, and he held it very deliberately to get that grouping at that level.

When you're holding a firearm with one hand, and you're in that very excited state of mind that Pistorius said he was in,
you're going to have a lot of shake, and you're not going to get such a small group as that. It's going to be all over the place. The fact that it isn't, in my view suggests that he had far more control than he actually is prepared to admit".

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Trial Discussion Thread #29

Thank you for posting this! This is what I was unwittingly thinking. The control of his firearm and the control to only shoot until the sound of the threat is gone. To me, that is a measured response. Fear based responses tend not to be calculated or measured, despite weapons training like OP had. JMO

ETA: I probably did not explain this too well.

 

[Viper]

I am looking for a source about OP's shots being a "tight grouping" after reading a comment to Zuri's question. A tight grouping his shots were NOT! It looked to me as if he went half way across the door.

They did look that way a little bit. It is because he was moving from left to right while reacquiring his aim with each consecutive pull of the trigger.

From the inside of the door, just look at the overhead photo taken from within the WC of the trajectory rods. Look closely and see that all of the rods point to a single area in the WC, they point to Reeva's head and upper body, and that is where the bullets hit.

Looking from the outside of the door his grouping is extremely tight vertically, and it does not vary much at all; his horizontal grouping is equally tight. All of that given that after the first shot his target moved as Reeva fell, screamed, covered her head, etc... and OP was moving left to right.

The bottom line is this, the grouping on the outside of the door made while OP was moving and firing means very little. The grouping of the bullets that hit Reeva, she is the target, not the door, is extremely tight with 2 of the 3 last bullets hitting her in the head and upper arm. That's successfully making a headshot and an upper center mass (area of her upper arm). That is a very good grouping.

 

[james83]

I am looking for a source about OP's shots being a "tight grouping" after reading a comment to Zuri's question. A tight grouping his shots were NOT! It looked to me as if he went half way across the door.

Yes, exactly like Reeva did