TX TX - Julie Moseley, 9, Mary Trlica, 17, Lisa Wilson, 14, Fort Worth, 23 Dec 1974 - #5

[Ozoner]

What makes Melvin so interesting? That had to happen a GOOD six months if not longer before the girls disappeared depending how long Debra had been moved out. There’s nothing to place Melvin around the girls when they disappeared. To me he’s of very little interest. And if he is involved how do you explain the letter Tommy wrote? imo if you have too many poi’s you rule them out one by one. That letter rules out a lot!
Glad at least a few people haven’t been handed every scrap of information some folks could get their hands on. Better savor those tidbits they got because they won’t get anymore! I’m definitely not referencing Vincent, I appreciate his work and digression very much! He and everyone with gone cold have done an EXCELLENT job weeding through some seriously deep bs! Can’t wait for the next episode. I believe it will have some much more interesting characters in it...,

"imo if you have too many poi’s you rule them out one by one."

Ay, there's the rub. It's impossible for me to rule out many people.

The one guy that I can eliminate in my own mind is Gene Snow. The profile of a sex offender who would pay an underage male for sexual favors is very, very different from the profile of an offender who would abduct and murder three girls. I understand why the podcast would mention him, but he can be ruled out absolutely.

The podcaster is very adamant about dismissing Bill Hutchins' story. If you agree with the podcaster, then I guess you can eliminate Danny Wilson as a suspect. I can't go quite that far, but I think I can move him to the bottom of the list.

I can almost eliminate Robin Carter because of his age, but not quite. At 13, he would have been a very young killer, but it's thought that Ted Bundy started around that age, and Carter had a couple of older brothers who could have helped him.

I really don't think that I can rule out anybody else. I certainly can't rule out Tommy, but if he killed the girls, where did he do it? Debra was supposedly at the house all day. The car didn't show any signs of violence.

The letter is very difficult to get around; 99 times out of 100 you could say that the person who wrote a letter like that killed the girls and wanted to buy time, and you'd be right. It's possible to speculate on other motives for writing the letter, but I don't have any convincing ones. Maybe he believed that Rachel had run out on him, and he thought that she would come back voluntarily in a day or two, and he wanted to get people out of his hair in the meantime. Either you allow that there could have been another reason for writing the letter, or your list of suspects shrinks to one.

The reason why Melvin is interesting to me is that his overtly predatory behavior marks him as a sociopath who would be capable of committing a crime like this one. We don't know for certain that all contact between Rachel and Melvin ceased after his visit to her parents' home. Even if it did, he may have run into the girls at the mall that day. A pathological liar like Melvin would be able to lure three girls somewhere without using violence. People like that can be very glib, very disarming, and very dangerous.

I can't eliminate Tommy.
I can't eliminate California Jacket Guy.
I can't eliminate Billy Simpson.
I can't eliminate Cotton.
I can't eliminate Melvin.
I can't eliminate James Mitchell "Mike" Debardeleben.
I can't eliminate Edward Harold Bell.

There were apparently quite a few other sexual predators out there who would have been capable of a crime like this, too, even if there's no obvious connection to the case: William Ted Wilhoit and Lloyd Lee Welch were both mentioned in the podcast, but there were undoubtedly many others.

 

[johnbelt]

Vincent named so many possible suspects.Melvin is probably the most interesting.I don't think California jacket or even Tommy being so young would pull it off in such a short window without making mistakes.I was wondering if Robin Carter was related to the Arnold's neighbors and Mr.Wilson's best friend.Being that Travis Langston moved in with Fran when they married.Robin and Travis being acquainted would make another murder real interesting.

 

[Wishyouknew]

Vincent named so many possible suspects.Melvin is probably the most interesting.I don't think California jacket or even Tommy being so young would pull it off in such a short window without making mistakes.I was wondering if Robin Carter was related to the Arnold's neighbors and Mr.Wilson's best friend.Being that Travis Langston moved in with Fran when they married.Robin and Travis being acquainted would make another murder real interesting.

No there is no connection between the two Carter’s. I’m sure mistakes were made. No one was looking for them! No one was looking for the girls.

 

[Wishyouknew]

"imo if you have too many poi’s you rule them out one by one."

Ay, there's the rub. It's impossible for me to rule out many people.

The one guy that I can eliminate in my own mind is Gene Snow. The profile of a sex offender who would pay an underage male for sexual favors is very, very different from the profile of an offender who would abduct and murder three girls. I understand why the podcast would mention him, but he can be ruled out absolutely.

The podcaster is very adamant about dismissing Bill Hutchins' story. If you agree with the podcaster, then I guess you can eliminate Danny Wilson as a suspect. I can't go quite that far, but I think I can move him to the bottom of the list.

I can almost eliminate Robin Carter because of his age, but not quite. At 13, he would have been a very young killer, but it's thought that Ted Bundy started around that age, and Carter had a couple of older brothers who could have helped him.

I really don't think that I can rule out anybody else. I certainly can't rule out Tommy, but if he killed the girls, where did he do it? Debra was supposedly at the house all day. The car didn't show any signs of violence.

The letter is very difficult to get around; 99 times out of 100 you could say that the person who wrote a letter like that killed the girls and wanted to buy time, and you'd be right. It's possible to speculate on other motives for writing the letter, but I don't have any convincing ones. Maybe he believed that Rachel had run out on him, and he thought that she would come back voluntarily in a day or two, and he wanted to get people out of his hair in the meantime. Either you allow that there could have been another reason for writing the letter, or your list of suspects shrinks to one.

The reason why Melvin is interesting to me is that his overtly predatory behavior marks him as a sociopath who would be capable of committing a crime like this one. We don't know for certain that all contact between Rachel and Melvin ceased after his visit to her parents' home. Even if it did, he may have run into the girls at the mall that day. A pathological liar like Melvin would be able to lure three girls somewhere without using violence. People like that can be very glib, very disarming, and very dangerous.

I can't eliminate Tommy.
I can't eliminate California Jacket Guy.
I can't eliminate Billy Simpson.
I can't eliminate Cotton.
I can't eliminate Melvin.
I can't eliminate James Mitchell "Mike" Debardeleben.
I can't eliminate Edward Harold Bell.

There were apparently quite a few other sexual predators out there who would have been capable of a crime like this, too, even if there's no obvious connection to the case: William Ted Wilhoit and Lloyd Lee Welch were both mentioned in the podcast, but there were undoubtedly many others.

I can rule Cotton out.
I can say Melvin is highly unlikely.
I can say DeBardeleben is highly unlikely. Way to go on correct spelling. Most people can’t even pronounce it much less spell it.
I can say Bell is highly unlike.
I can say Bell is very unlikely.
I can say Carter is very unlikely.
And I believe although Welch would look the best for this, I can rule him out.
I would rule out Snow.
Simpson I still find interesting.
California jacket guy is in my top two.
My personal opinion Melvin if he existed would of moved on by this point.
While one can say there could be multiple reasons to write the letter, that is true but if so, why not come forward? First off why hinder the chances of anyone finding your wife. By every account that was not normal behavior for Rachel. So why would he think she left for a day or two? As far as where Tommy could have done it, home is not off the list because Debra claims to have been there. I believe that psychic Joseph was right. 3-5 people involved. Oddly that’s about the number of people fwpd narrowed it down to back in 2001..... I’d agree completely! Jmo of course. I could be dead wrong....

 

[Paul B.]

Something that haunts me @Kellijeanarnold is the Julie issue. She was only nine and more importantly, she was only there by chance, so why didn't the man/men spare her?

 

[Wishyouknew]

Something that haunts me @Kellijeanarnold is the Julie issue. She was only nine and more importantly, she was only there by chance, so why didn't the man/men spare her?

It takes a sociopath to live with what they have done. My personal opinion as to why is because she could talk. If you go with other scenarios she could have been the target. Sadly some people are just SICK! I know it’s difficult for normal people to understand how but, it is what thrills some for whatever sick reason. And honestly I pray for all three girls that the scenario I lean towards is the right one. There are a lot worse. DeBardeleben Would be a TERRIBLE fate. He was a SICK sadistic man. If so then why the letter? That’s definitely not his handwriting.
Honestly I do not believe this was a premeditated event. I believe it was in the heat of the moment. They felt they had no other choice.
Again and as always Jmo

 

[Thewop356]

What I do agree with is that unfortunately, this was done by someone who knew the girls and it was more then likely someone close. The letter is just too convenient a distraction for some sex slave ring who by that time were absolute pros at kidnapping and wouldn't need or waste time or effort to write a note. Which I also think rules out any violent stranger offender as well. They just wouldnt do that. The only person who would take time to write or have a note written is someone who has something to lose. This is all just my opinion, as for all I know they really could have been kidnapped by aliens, but just being real. Hope you all have a great new year!!!

 

[TedMac]

Something that haunts me @Kellijeanarnold is the Julie issue. She was only nine and more importantly, she was only there by chance, so why didn't the man/men spare her?

I believe everything happened just like @Kellijeanarnold said-it was a spontaneous event. The killer or killers became enraged over someone or something and it turned into a triple homicide. Julie wasn't spared because she probably witnessed everything that happened and needless to say, a dead person cannot testify.

 

[Ozoner]

I believe everything happened just like @Kellijeanarnold said-it was a spontaneous event. The killer or killers became enraged over someone or something and it turned into a triple homicide. Julie wasn't spared because she probably witnessed everything that happened and needless to say, a dead person cannot testify.

Do you believe that both Tommy and Debra were involved in this triple homicide? Do you think that all three girls were killed on the spot, or do you think that two of them were abducted and disposed of later?

 

[TedMac]

Do you believe that both Tommy and Debra were involved in this triple homicide? Do you think that all three girls were killed on the spot, or do you think that two of them were abducted and disposed of later?

I had rather not say on the public page who I believe killed them. But, I believe all 3 were killed on the spot and their bodies disposed of simultaneously. They were probably killed before anyone knew they were missing. My theory has the girls going to the mall and later returning home where they either walked in on something or someone who was with them that triggered a violent reaction. The killers quickly disposed of the bodies and returned the car to the mall where it was later located. I think one person did all the killing and at least one accomplice helped with the disposal of the bodies and the moving of the car.

 

[Ozoner]

I had rather not say on the public page who I believe killed them. But, I believe all 3 were killed on the spot and their bodies disposed of simultaneously. They were probably killed before anyone knew they were missing. My theory has the girls going to the mall and later returning home where they either walked in on something or someone who was with them that triggered a violent reaction. The killers quickly disposed of the bodies and returned the car to the mall where it was later located. I think one person did all the killing and at least one accomplice helped with the disposal of the bodies and the moving of the car.

If someone was with them, that someone would have to be California Jacket Guy, yes? But why would he remain silent? Why wouldn't he have been killed, too? It would be very far fetched to think that anyone other than California Jacket Guy was with them.

If Tommy killed the girls, why would Debra cover for him? If Debra killed the girls, why would Tommy cover for her?

If Rachel walked in on Tommy and Rachel in flagrante delicto, as it were, she'd be the one with the violent reaction, right?

The theories you pose seem plausible on the surface, but they raise questions that are difficult to answer.

 

[TedMac]

If someone was with them, that someone would have to be California Jacket Guy, yes? But why would he remain silent? Why wouldn't he have been killed, too? It would be very far fetched to think that anyone other than California Jacket Guy was with them.

If Tommy killed the girls, why would Debra cover for him? If Debra killed the girls, why would Tommy cover for her?

If Rachel walked in on Tommy and Rachel in flagrante delicto, as it were, she'd be the one with the violent reaction, right?

The theories you pose seem plausible on the surface, but they raise questions that are difficult to answer.

BBM...Not really difficult to answer if you think about it.

 

[Ozoner]

BBM...Not really difficult to answer if you think about it.

I have thought about it, so I disagree.

It would strain anyone's credulity to believe that California Jacket Guy would have witnessed the murder of the girls, been allowed to live, and remained silent for decades unless he was a participant in the killings, and it is well nigh impossible to believe that he would have joined Tommy and Debra in killing the girls. Why would he have done that?

If you take California Jacket Guy out of the equation, then the scenarios become more plausible.

I'm not sure why California Jacket Guy would have admitted to being with the girls at the mall but then changed his story unless he had something to hide. How old was California Jacket Guy? Was he married? Maybe he wasn't supposed to be with Rachel. Maybe he parted company with them at the mall and then lied about being with them in order to protect his marriage. He might lie about being with the girls for that reason, but no one that I've ever met would help conceal a triple murder for that reason.

You've stated that you believe that all three girls were killed, so you're not one of these people that believe that Rachel accidentally killed one of the other girls (in a struggle with Debra or Tommy over a revolver, for instance).

 

[TedMac]

I don't think CA Jacket Guy witnessed the murders nor was he with the girls at the house. I am fairly certain he was with them at the mall only. I don't think he participated in the killings or the cover-up.

I think he changed his story because he was afraid of the killer. I also think that is why he left for CA very soon after the girls disappeared-he was fearing for his life.

No, I don't think Rachel killed one of the other girls accidently or on purpose.

 

[johnbelt]

California guy was just a little older than Rachel.I still am not sure they made it to the mall.I also think a rage killing of three girls does not go so easy and a crime scene would be present.I honestly think Rachel was the target and the other two were bonuses for the kidnappers.

 

[johnbelt]

I really need a reason why Fran and Rusty continue to lie and mislead the public even now.Still lying about presents in the car.They really want people to believe those girls made it to the mall.Fran going store to store and Cotton guarding the car when neither were at the mall.It isn't a case of Fran forgetting because these stories started the next day.

 

[Ozoner]

California guy was just a little older than Rachel.I still am not sure they made it to the mall.I also think a rage killing of three girls does not go so easy and a crime scene would be present.I honestly think Rachel was the target and the other two were bonuses for the kidnappers.

Do you think that it was a sexually motivated crime, or do you think that there was another reason for it (such as Tommy or Cotton owed money to the wrong person, etc.)?

 

[johnbelt]

Do you think that it was a sexually motivated crime, or do you think that there was another reason for it (such as Tommy or Cotton owed money to the wrong person, etc.)?

I know I'm in the minority but I have always thought it was financially motivated.I think they were alive.I don't have a guess how long.I think Julie called her mother.I don't however believe that they were alive long enough for Rachel to return to Fort Worth yearly

 

[Wishyouknew]

I know I'm in the minority but I have always thought it was financially motivated.I think they were alive.I don't have a guess how long.I think Julie called her mother.I don't however believe that they were alive long enough for Rachel to return to Fort Worth yearly

Who benefited financially? I don’t see anyone that came out ahead financially. It took years for Fran to pay off the IRS. She’s filed bankruptcy multiple times. So has Debra. It didn’t appear as though Tommy benefited financially either. So is there someone else you think benefited financially from it? If I saw someone say buy a new travel trailer, remodel their home, and new vehicles, I may believe there was financial gain. The Arnold’s couldn’t even pay their bills. Along with Fran’s notes are notes of charity organizations she was contacting to help them pay bills.

 

[johnbelt]

Who benefited financially? I don’t see anyone that came out ahead financially. It took years for Fran to pay off the IRS. She’s filed bankruptcy multiple times. So has Debra. It didn’t appear as though Tommy benefited financially either. So is there someone else you think benefited financially from it? If I saw someone say buy a new travel trailer, remodel their home, and new vehicles, I may believe there was financial gain. The Arnold’s couldn’t even pay their bills. Along with Fran’s notes are notes of charity organizations she was contacting to help them pay bills.

yes I have no proof that anyone benefited financially.Was the Arnold's in danger of losing their home?If Fran isn't involved how do you rationalize her lies and continued lies by Rusty?