Deceased/Not Found UK - April Jones, 5, Machynlleth, Wales, 1 Oct 2012 #3 *M. Bridger guilty*

[Inge Jones]

Fairly recently in the UK, a person held pending trial confessed to a priest, the priest was in a right dilemma between confidential confession and sharing a material fact he'd learnt.

I can't remember the outcome, was it Vincent Tabak?

Yes I think it was. Apparently he told Tabak anything he said would be confidential, and then broke that promise. I am quite ambivalent about whether he should have, after actually making the promise.

 

[Why why why]

Crikey – don’t be. Just stuff picked up over time and Google is my friend

I don't think plea bargaining officially happens in the UK although there were moves to bring it in for cases like fraud but I don't know how far that got. I don't really see how a defendant could give up the location of a body without admitting at least a degree of guilt. If it's clear that a defendant is responsible for a victims death, it may be possible to try and use manslaughter as a defence to murder. Effectively admitting to causing death but not having intended to. That probably doesn't answer your question properly. Maybe other posters can help.

BBM When I read this, a thought came to me, maybe he broke down and admitted he did take her, then that she died, but he drank/took drugs and really can't recall what he did or where he went that night. Police found evidence to back up the claim that she died so they upped the charge to murder but they can't recover the body.
Everything seemed to move so quickly in this case, they found and arrested MB within 24 hours, the charge change to include murder, they said unlikely she was alive now they are saying they might not be able to find her.

 

[SapphireSteel]

I think the law is fairly clear that if a doctor, priest, or anyone in a position of "trust" and secrecy is told of a crime, they no longer are under any obligation to keep that confidential.

In fact there is such a thing as mandatory reporting for these situations. In Australia, anyway.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Unfortunately not . . . I don't recall that making headlines our side of the pond.
I guess from the context of what you highlighted in your quote that they were convicted on the strength of confessions only???

Sorry - off to bed shortly, so I'll have to wait until tomorrow to look it up (unless you want to enlighten me)

There is a thread on here about them.

New Evidence - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community


Three youths convicted of the most disgusting child murders merely because one (slightly lower IQ) was essentially bullied into confessing.

They spent their adolescence in jail protesting their innocence, and in fact DNA evidence implicating one of the victims stepfather was ignored and this guy still walks around unchallenged.

The boys were lucky not to be executed and now their conviction has been overturned, sort of, if you can call being released under vague terms overturned. They remain on all sorts of probation conditions however.

Insanity.

 

[Somerset_sleuth]

Hi, am new to posting but have been following the posts on here.

This may seem like a stupid question but one thing I can't get my head round about this case is it was said AJ played with MB's children so I am presuming other children on the estate also played with MB's children, in which case why did this 7 year old witness give a description of a van etc? My own child knows everyone who lives in our road, if she does not know names she will refer to them as (childs name) mum or dad, surely if MB was well known on this estate and known to the children living there this witness would have just given his name or said she got into so & so's dad's van/car?

Sorry if this has already been discussed

 

[Mrs P]

I agree, Also think with regard to the colour of the vehicle, this is a small child, if she was stood at the side she would probable be level with the bottom of the door window, if that, the main colour she would have seen would have been the silver/white/grey stripe.

I think the Police KNOW they have the right man and like you say would not charge Murder without the evidence of death, (the CPS wouldn't allow that anyhow) but also that without a body they know it is harder to prove so they have made sure they have charged with him with everything they can to make sure he is locked up and pays for whatever it is that is proven.

It is of course opinion so please don't rant at me!! lol :what:

Inspector Dots... I agree to some extent (re: charges), but could you explain what you mean by 'evidence of death'. It is my understanding that in the case in Red Marley (Gloucestershire) there was no evidence of death, yet there was a successful conviction. Later on a confession, granted, and the body was located...

 

[jigzy]

I've seen it reported that MB and VF had only been separated a week however, it's also reported that he rented Mount Pleasant since the beginning of September. Those things seem contradictory to me as I would have thought he would rent a new place after the break up. Mixed up reporting perhaps.

Interesting, if true, about the rental of the house PRIOR to break up. Maybe he was planning to set up home with erm, 'someone else' IYKWIM, and things didn't work out hence reckless, hasty actions.
So many spite/revenge killings these days

jmo.

 

[Saturn]

Hi Somerset Sleuth and welcome, I guess you are Somerset UK by your terminology. Me too :seeya:.

I agree with what you said, but are kids really that savvy with who's dad drives what car, especially as a birds eye view of the estate shows it to be mainly around greens with no vehicular access.

Also, I guess, it's how the questions were asked of her. Chatting to your mum would be along those lines, but being questioned by Police could make her respond differently - a lot of kids of that age are in awe of Police, so word their answers very carefully.

 

[Amber34]

BBM

I am in awe of your legal knowledge . . . thanks for sharing it!

Regarding the sentence I bolded above, can LE question MB about things related to the charge if he and his counselor agree? For example, is there an equivalent to a plea bargain? Could MB agree to talk to LE and provide the location of April, for instance, in exchange for a reduction in charges?

Sorry if this has been asked/answered. I've tried to keep up with all the posts, but may have missed a few!

Short answer, no, not in the UK.

As far as I recall, it has been debated in recent years but only for cases of fraud.

If the defendant is particularly 'helpful', confesses or pleads guilty, saving the agony and expense of a long trial, the judge may take that into consideration when passing sentence.

If you have a little time, there is an 'audience participation' website called You Be The Judge' where you can go through a court case, having it explained as you go, and pass your own sentence, then compare it to the actual sentence passed by the judge.

http://ybtj.justice.gov.uk/

 

[Somerset_sleuth]

Hi Somerset Sleuth and welcome, I guess you are Somerset UK by your terminology. Me too :seeya:.

I agree with what you said, but are kids really that savvy with who's dad drives what car, especially as a birds eye view of the estate shows it to be mainly around greens with no vehicular access.

Also, I guess, it's how the questions were asked of her. Chatting to your mum would be along those lines, but being questioned by Police could make her respond differently - a lot of kids of that age are in awe of Police, so word their answers very carefully.

Thanks for the welcome, Yes am in Somerset, UK :seeya:

Hmm I get what your saying, however before this child witness was questioned by police she more than likely told her parents what she had seen so would have been questioned by them to some extent in a more relaxed way than with the police! I dunno just don't make sense to me.

 

[MoonFlwr]

Even if a person is a jerk, for example, or a small-time crook; it is doubtful that his or her family member would ever believe they could actually kill a child. It is a crime that just does not compute. Everyone wants the killer to be a "professional child killer" as it were, not someone who could live in your own neighborhood, even though that is so often the case.

What a good point, cluciano!

 

[wfgodot]

Yes, welcome to WS, Somerset_sleuth.

 

[Reannan]

Still no April... I have hoped and prayed all day that we would have news! The vehicle that was confiscated after being found in the garage.... has it ever been clarified what it was in the garage for exactly? He would have been very bold to use a damaged vehicle to transport a body, and run the risk of getting caught? Did he somehow damage the vehicle in his drive down to the river? Any locals familiar with what kind of terrain he would have traveled over to get down to where the tire tracks were found, vs. where the two women saw him carrying a black garbage bag?

 

[BritsKate]

Bear in mind Adrian Prout wasn't charged with murder until March of 2008 though Kate had been reported missing in November of the previous year.

In most no-body murder cases the prosecution builds a circumstantial argument to prove the victim is deceased. This is especially true in 'soft kills'.

Two no-body cases of child homicide we can compare are that of Lauryn Dickens and Bianca Jones. (LD's mother was convicted of 2nd degree homicide; BJ's father is currently on trial for 1st degree murder.) In both cases the parent charged was the last one seen, or known to be with, the child. In both cases cadaver dogs alerted to cadaverine scent. In Bianca's case an eyewitness saw her father 'spanking' her. Shakara Dickens waited more than a week to report her daughter missing. A mixture of blood and saliva was found on Bianca's pillow. 108 items were seized as evidence in Lauryn's murder though nothing pointed directly to a cause of death. Ironically both parents also have older living children.

9 days passed before Shakara was arrested for Lauryn's murder. Nearly 4 months before D'Andre Lane was arrested for Bianca's. Incidentally Shakara also confessed at the sentencing hearing despite having maintained her innocence up to that point.

I guess what I mean by citing these cases is that there isn't usually a rush to arrest in a no-body child homicide and the fact that MB was arrested, then charged, so quickly without a body leads me to the belief the police have more than the investigators did in these cases.

 

[Saturn]

@Rheannan - No, but I think the timings of when it was booked into the garage would have been paramount to Police, also the reason for being booked in - a previous poster said it was reportedly having gear problems, it is a 20 year old vehicle, and if it has run for most of it's life on 2H, occasional 4H, rather than 4L, this could have messed up the transmission.

However someone reported it was running as if with gear problems prior to the abduction - had he been doing a recce of the wild terrain previously, and this was premeditated?

 

[Somerset_sleuth]

Still no April... I have hoped and prayed all day that we would have news! The vehicle that was confiscated after being found in the garage.... has it ever been clarified what it was in the garage for exactly? He would have been very bold to use a damaged vehicle to transport a body, and run the risk of getting caught? Did he somehow damage the vehicle in his drive down to the river? Any locals familiar with what kind of terrain he would have traveled over to get down to where the tire tracks were found, vs. where the two women saw him carrying a black garbage bag?

I could be wrong but didn't the OAP witness state he saw MB driving erratically through the estate at 6pm and that he was crunching the gears or that the car let out a loud bang? so seems like there was a problem with the vehicle prior to AJ going missing.

 

[Suzy-sue]

Just another two thoughts - what if MB didn't do it and the police know he didn't do but he's agreed to pretend to have done it to flush out the real person who did it who would then hopefully come forward? MB's arrest and being charged etc still seems to have been too quick along with an absence of any evidence thats been made public....

Or what if he didn't kill her (or maybe did kill her) and quickly handed her over to someone else (e.g. for a snuff movie) but won't reveal this information as it would leave it his children vulnerable to reprisals. There's so many sick people out there it beggars belief.....

 

[wfgodot]

Still no April... I have hoped and prayed all day that we would have news! The vehicle that was confiscated after being found in the garage.... has it ever been clarified what it was in the garage for exactly?

At 9.15am on Tuesday, Mr Bridger seemed “agitated” as he drove out of Ceinws, the hamlet where he lived, according to a motorist, David Richards.

“I was turning into Ceinws off the main road and crossing the bridge,” he said. “He wanted to go out to the main road in his vehicle. He was flustered, he wanted to get going. He couldn’t wait for me to cross the bridge, he couldn’t get out of that road quick enough. He was very agitated. There was only him in the Land Rover that I could see.

“He was crashing the gears, making a hell of a noise. He went out to the junction, then stopped and there was an almighty bang. There was something wrong with the vehicle.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...rk-Bridger-was-at-school-parents-evening.html

Possibly this.

 

[bananas76]

I fear they're never going to find her, every day I have been hoping they'll find her, I can't imagine the horror her parents are going through. I don't know what to make of it all...

 

[cluciano63]

Just another two thoughts - what if MB didn't do it and the police know he didn't do but he's agreed to pretend to have done it to flush out the real person who did it who would then hopefully come forward? MB's arrest and being charged etc still seems to have been too quick along with an absence of any evidence thats been made public....

Or what if he didn't kill her (or maybe did kill her) and quickly handed her over to someone else (e.g. for a snuff movie) but won't reveal this information as it would leave it his children vulnerable to reprisals. There's so many sick people out there it beggars belief.....

That doesn't happen. (the first one)
And the second one would not make LE charge him with murder at this point-they HAVE evidence of murder, IMO.