UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #4

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I find it curious how there was such huge concern even for the first baby that led to her using an alias to give birth. That's unusual for that level of concern for baby 1
Agreed and I hope the jury find out why. There was even a national alert.

On some other points...

1. DATE OF DEATH

After reading today's court reports, I get the feeling that much will turn on the date of death. Not the precise date, but whether the jury can be sure that the prosecution view that Victoria spent a month or more in a tent is true, or whether on the contrary the defence view - about which CM is being called a scheming liar - may possibly be true instead.

2. CAUSE OF DEATH

Then there is the physical cause of death.

John Femi-Ola for MG:

"'Importantly eminent pathologists were instructed by the crown to determine the cause of baby Victoria's death.

'They conclude that the cause of death was unascertained. It is correct that the body had decomposed to an extent but there is pathologically no evidence of any sign of violence, no sign of external or internal injuries.

'The circumstances leaves the prosecution to say that the baby must have died by reason of hypothermia or exposure or co-sleeping.

'There is we contend no medical diagnosis of death being caused by hypothermia or exposure.
"

This is an extraordinary case! It's reminiscent of the rare examples of a prosecution for murder without a dead body, when the state asserts that a defendant murdered someone but they don't know how.

The prosecution seem to accept that Victoria may have died as a result of co-sleeping. It's as if they're saying "whatever happened, CM and MG were responsible".

3. REASONS FOR RUNNING

Also from JF-O: "'As you listen to evidence you will want to ask yourself - were they driven off grid?'"

Indeed. If it's asserted by the defence that they were driven off grid, and driven by the SS, then the SS officers involved should welcome the charge to defend and explain their actions in court - all their actions from the very moment they opened their files on the defendants.

If the SS say they can't because that would violate child XYZ's privacy, well of course they can say that, but if the judge accepts it then that means the defendants can't receive a fair trial, which means an acquittal.

This is just how the criminal justice system works. Hard to see that evidence that goes to the reasons (both distal and proximal) for the defendants' actions wouldn't be probative, when there's no evidence other than from the defendants themselves regarding the physical causes of death. This isn't like saying oh she had a hard time in the cult, so let's hear some testimony about that. Why they were sought goes directly to why they went off radar, far more specifically and with much greater explanatory power. Personally I hope if the defence does want to hear from and cross-examine the SS then the judge requires the SS to take the stand.
 
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In his brief opening speech (defence opening speeches are usually brief, if they happen at all), John Femi-Ola KC, appearing for MG, has said Victoria didn't require medical assistance and that she died in the circumstances CM described in her police interview.

The prosecution must prove otherwise for there to be a verdict of guilty to manslaughter.

The prosecution is now presenting its case. The Argus have not reported an opening speech by CM's barrister, so it seems there probably wasn't one.
I don't accept the fact that Victoria "didn't require medical assistance" (whose words are these)? means that a crime/manslaughter was not committed. MG and John Femi-Ola KC seem to have overlooked the necessity for food and warmth - amongst other needs of a new-born baby?
 
Things were getting desperate for them. All their plans had gone wrong, the public and authorities were on the look out for them and it was becoming apparent the baby wasn't going to survive if they carried on...plus they were more recognisable with a baby. I'm thinking they may have killed her in sheer desperation to flee easier and a little bit of I don't really want her but the authorities aren't having her either. They both come across so far as incredibly selfish and entitled people.
Jmo
For MG, that would be murder.
For CM, that would either be murder or infanticide.
They're not accused of deliberate homicide.
 
I don't accept the fact that Victoria "didn't require medical assistance" (whose words are these)? means that a crime/manslaughter was not committed. MG and John Femi-Ola KC seem to have overlooked the necessity for food and warmth - amongst other needs of a new-born baby?

Even more so for a baby who was maybe born early (unconfirmed).
 
I don't accept the fact that Victoria "didn't require medical assistance" (whose words are these)? means that a crime/manslaughter was not committed. MG and John Femi-Ola KC seem to have overlooked the necessity for food and warmth - amongst other needs of a new-born baby?
I said, "John Femi-Ola KC, appearing for MG, has said Victoria didn't require medical assistance". "Didn't require medical assistance" are his exact words as reported in the Independent:


"I don't accept the fact that Victoria "didn't require medical assistance" (whose words are these)? means that a crime/manslaughter was not committed."

The defence doesn't have to prove anything.

The defence submission is that "she died in the circumstances CM described in her police interview."

The prosecution must prove to the contrary. Proving she died because of an absence of food and warmth caused by parental neglect would be proving to the contrary.
 
If the reports from witnesses who saw the baby only dressed in a baby grow and without a hat or any covering on her feet are correct she was not getting adequate warmth.


They did address their own need for warmth though. If I remember right they had winter coats and also:


February 27

Marten and Gordon smelled “very unpleasant” as they were arrested in Hollingbury Place in Brighton, jurors heard. They were carrying furniture stuffing and paper in their clothing for extra warmth.

 
Inside filthy holiday home rented by Constance Marten and her lover before they went on run with their newborn baby: Photos shown to jury reveal rubbish in kitchen, stains on the bed and cat litter left in the living room

 
Agreed and I hope the jury find out why. There was even a national alert.

On some other points...

1. DATE OF DEATH

After reading today's court reports, I get the feeling that much will turn on the date of death. Not the precise date, but whether the jury can be sure that the prosecution view that Victoria spent a month or more in a tent is true, or whether on the contrary the defence view - about which CM is being called a scheming liar - may possibly be true instead.

2. CAUSE OF DEATH

Then there is the physical cause of death.

John Femi-Ola for MG:

"'Importantly eminent pathologists were instructed by the crown to determine the cause of baby Victoria's death.

'They conclude that the cause of death was unascertained. It is correct that the body had decomposed to an extent but there is pathologically no evidence of any sign of violence, no sign of external or internal injuries.

'The circumstances leaves the prosecution to say that the baby must have died by reason of hypothermia or exposure or co-sleeping.

'There is we contend no medical diagnosis of death being caused by hypothermia or exposure.
"

This is an extraordinary case! It's reminiscent of the rare examples of a prosecution for murder without a dead body, when the state asserts that a defendant murdered someone but they don't know how.

The prosecution seem to accept that Victoria may have died as a result of co-sleeping. It's as if they're saying "whatever happened, CM and MG were responsible".

3. REASONS FOR RUNNING

Also from JF-O: "'As you listen to evidence you will want to ask yourself - were they driven off grid?'"

Indeed. If it's asserted by the defence that they were driven off grid, and driven by the SS, then the SS officers involved should welcome the charge to defend and explain their actions in court - all their actions from the very moment they opened their files on the defendants.

If the SS say they can't because that would violate child XYZ's privacy, well of course they can say that, but if the judge accepts it then that means the defendants can't receive a fair trial, which means an acquittal.

This is just how the criminal justice system works. Hard to see that evidence that goes to the reasons (both distal and proximal) for the defendants' actions wouldn't be probative, when there's no evidence other than from the defendants themselves regarding the physical causes of death. This isn't like saying oh she had a hard time in the cult, so let's hear some testimony about that. Why they were sought goes directly to why they went off radar, far more specifically and with much greater explanatory power. Personally I hope if the defence does want to hear from and cross-examine the SS then the judge requires the SS to take the stand.
Fleeing SS isn’t being driven though. Having a plan to evade SS and (understandably, from a desperate parents’ pov) go abroad with your baby is just as much a choice as being driven. Finding yourself the subject of a media furore, in winter and choosing to live in a tent with a newborn without adequate food for yourself and go off grid is a choice. The alternative choice being to realise that going off grid would be incredibly risky for the baby, and approaching the authorities for help for the baby. Yes, I can see that the fear of their child being taken into care was the impetus that drove their decision making, but faced with risk to the baby did were they actually ‘driven’ or did they make a choice?
 
Yes I don't get the cat litter thing. Also there was no need for them to trash that cottage, even if she did give birth there there was no need to urinate kn the floors or leave it in that state.
Apparently cat litter and empty plastic bottles can be signs of making meth. Add to that the caked on dirty oven hobs. Just a theory as I can't possibly think why they would need cat litter. MOO JMO
 
Apparently cat litter and empty plastic bottles can be signs of making meth. Add to that the caked on dirty oven hobs. Just a theory as I can't possibly think why they would need cat litter. MOO JMO
Cat litter is very absorbent.
Less suspicion in shops than either of them buying nappies whilst 'on the run?'
Attempts to clean up any sort of spills or liquid accidents.
 
Apparently cat litter and empty plastic bottles can be signs of making meth. Add to that the caked on dirty oven hobs. Just a theory as I can't possibly think why they would need cat litter. MOO JMO
Maybe something to do with 'retaining petrol for whatever reason'? speculation.
''Traces of petrol on hard surfaces such as concrete can more easily be detected using the absorbent material than by any other substance, according to a study by forensic scientists.
Most brands of cat litter contain the mineral sodium bentonite, which retains petrol on its surface.''



 
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Fleeing SS isn’t being driven though. Having a plan to evade SS and (understandably, from a desperate parents’ pov) go abroad with your baby is just as much a choice as being driven. Finding yourself the subject of a media furore, in winter and choosing to live in a tent with a newborn without adequate food for yourself and go off grid is a choice. The alternative choice being to realise that going off grid would be incredibly risky for the baby, and approaching the authorities for help for the baby. Yes, I can see that the fear of their child being taken into care was the impetus that drove their decision making, but faced with risk to the baby did were they actually ‘driven’ or did they make a choice?
Agreed about them making choices. But it's not either-or. If this is the defence case, the jury should have evidence about SS actions and SS-stated reasons for SS actions that lets them weigh up the defendants' actions in response to those actions, and they should form a view of whether <modsnip - no such classification> is a good thing, and perhaps they should ask what they themselves would have done in the circumstances.

Also the prosecution need to prove that going off grid is always extremely risky for babies, because that is not an uncontestable fact - and if that's the state's position then I wonder how many babies are living in tents in Britain right now. Certainly there are many children living in them, even if Suella Braverman said she wanted to crack down on tent dwelling.

This is actually a pivotal case politically and will have ramifications and goodness knows what the verdicts will be.

There are of course some people who essentially take the view that homelessness is always or almost always a lifestyle "choice".
 
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Apparently cat litter and empty plastic bottles can be signs of making meth. Add to that the caked on dirty oven hobs. Just a theory as I can't possibly think why they would need cat litter. MOO JMO
I didn't know anything about making meth until today.
Apparently meth labs can be and are run in all sorts of places, including car boots, and they can and do start fires.
Which may or may not be germane in this case.
The story of the car fire on the M61 was dramatic and the finding of the placenta in the burnt-out shell was even more so. The original story was that a woman had probably given birth on the back seat of the car, where there was not only a placenta but also "other signs of childbirth". This was before CM's name was published.

I took the prosaic view that the fire was caused solely by the car being an old banger that should never have been on the road, but who knows? I wonder what the cause of the fire is recorded as by the insurer (if there was one), or the fire service, or police, or whoever else is supposed to investigate such things, if anyone is.
 
I find it curious how there was such huge concern even for the first baby that led to her using an alias to give birth. That's unusual for that level of concern for baby 1
And this (bit in bold) is even more unusual

""The jury was told Ms Marten was from a “wealthy background” and had met Mr Gordon in 2016.

The following year, while pregnant, she had attended a hospital and told staff she was living in a campervan nearby.

Three months later social services issued an alert because they were unable to locate Ms Marten and were concerned for her welfare and that of the unborn child.

That winter she presented at another hospital in the early stages of labour, speaking in a fake Irish accent and telling staff she was from a Traveller family and had been brought up in a caravan.

She gave birth under the assumed identity of Isabella O’Brien and her true identity was only established later when social workers made the link with a national alert
."

Was the concern when she told staff she was living in a camper van because she was essentially homeless and they were concerned about her ability to care for a child with her living conditions? Or something more? I wonder if it is something more given that she is so keen to avoid social services she turned up at a different hospital in labour under a false identity. But maybe she’s just untrusting of the authorities and wants to evade them as she wants to live as she pleases and doesn’t want their “interference”.

I’m wondering whether this statement from the prosecution “they prioritised their own relationship and their own desires over the safety and wellbeing of their own baby.” refers to the fact that MG is a registered sex offender and CM wouldn’t leave him and was told she couldn’t keep her children if she was in a relationship with him.

And does “their own desires” refer to their lifestyle, the chaotic way they choose live and inability to put their child first? Or substance abuse? Or all of it?

I am also curious about the relevance of the cat litter in the cottage they stayed at.
 
I didn't know anything about making meth until today.
Apparently meth labs can be and are run in all sorts of places, including car boots, and they can and do start fires.
Which may or may not be germane in this case.
The story of the car fire on the M61 was dramatic and the finding of the placenta in the burnt-out shell was even more so. The original story was that a woman had probably given birth on the back seat of the car, where there was not only a placenta but also "other signs of childbirth". This was before CM's name was published.

I took the prosaic view that the fire was caused solely by the car being an old banger that should never have been on the road, but who knows? I wonder what the cause of the fire is recorded as by the insurer (if there was one), or the fire service, or police, or whoever else is supposed to investigate such things, if anyone is.
<modsnip>

But the cat litter does need an explanation.
 
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And this (bit in bold) is even more unusual

""The jury was told Ms Marten was from a “wealthy background” and had met Mr Gordon in 2016.

The following year, while pregnant, she had attended a hospital and told staff she was living in a campervan nearby.

Three months later social services issued an alert because they were unable to locate Ms Marten and were concerned for her welfare and that of the unborn child.

That winter she presented at another hospital in the early stages of labour, speaking in a fake Irish accent and telling staff she was from a Traveller family and had been brought up in a caravan.

She gave birth under the assumed identity of Isabella O’Brien and her true identity was only established later when social workers made the link with a national alert
."

Was the concern when she told staff she was living in a camper van because she was essentially homeless and they were concerned about her ability to care for a child with her living conditions? Or something more? I wonder if it is something more given that she is so keen to avoid social services she turned up at a different hospital in labour under a false identity. But maybe she’s just untrusting of the authorities and wants to evade them as she wants to live as she pleases and doesn’t want their “interference”.

I’m wondering whether this statement from the prosecution “they prioritised their own relationship and their own desires over the safety and wellbeing of their own baby.” refers to the fact that MG is a registered sex offender and CM wouldn’t leave him and was told she couldn’t keep her children if she was in a relationship with him.

And does “their own desires” refer to their lifestyle, the chaotic way they choose live and inability to put their child first? Or substance abuse? Or all of it?

I am also curious about the relevance of the cat litter in the cottage they stayed at.
I can only imagine that it went along the lines of a concern being raised re the campervan. That in itself wouldn't be a huge issue. SS did some digging and discovered his back ground and potentially an unfavourable response to any attempts to support CM. Suddenly you go from low level concern that can be easily sorted to a massive one.
 
I can only imagine that it went along the lines of a concern being raised re the campervan. That in itself wouldn't be a huge issue. SS did some digging and discovered his back ground and potentially an unfavourable response to any attempts to support CM. Suddenly you go from low level concern that can be easily sorted to a massive one.
Considering the state they left the cottage in, it could have been if it was unfit to live in.

If they were getting chunks of nearly 20K into her bank account at a time. Why on earth were they living in such conditions anyway? Where did all that money go? It doesn't appear that they were on drugs - at least from what I've read.

Has it been established if social services knew about the pregnancy before the car fire?

Is it known if they had 4 kids and they all got removed at once? Or were they successively removed over a couple of years?
 
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