UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #4

[Lucy6226]

Looking at the photo in the bus station I'm surprised the poor baby wasn't suffocated to death as her coat is totally zipped up with nowhere for air for the poor thing

I feel like this is exactly what happened imo

 

[DSleuth]

Am I the only one who finds the pictures of the burned out car utterly shocking? When the original news story broke about the car and the placenta, I was imagining something much milder.

I find it puzzling too. How did the placenta escape being completely incinerated, when you look at how totally the upholstery of both front seats has been destroyed?

The shot seems to be taken across the back seat from offside to nearside. You can see the burnt out frames of the seats - driver's seat still in place, passenger seat tipped forward, passenger door open.

Assuming the pixelled-out bit is the placenta, is that a laptop beneath it, still protected by the cardboard delivery packaging? How is that not burned to a cinder too?

All I can think of is that they originally salvaged them from the car but then decided they couldn't carry them and put them back into the smoking remains of the car. Is that plausible? I've got no idea how fast a car fire ignites and then subsides, or whether anything's known about how long they stayed nearby.

I can't see how anything in there wasn't totally destroyed.

JMO

No, you’re not the only one. I was also expecting something much milder especially after hearing the reports of the placenta wrapped in a towel, CM’s passport and mobile phones being found- I wrongly thought they must have been easily findable and identifiable.

I’m definitely no fire expert, but maybe the towel with the placenta wrapped in it was wet and that protected it to some extent? I honestly don’t know.

 

[Lolabear]

IMO I don't think they were on the run to keep the baby, I don't think they cared about poor Victoria same way they easily abandoned their 4th child.
I'm assuming they paid by card for the lodge, it wasn't until someone recognised them that they realised there was police and media campaign to find them, only then did they lived more off the grid.

My thoughts exactly. Imo they had very little love for victoria, more of a spite thing against authority. What did they really think would happen if victoria hadn't died...living in a tent with a screaming toddler. They are both totally delusional

 

[Cardgame]

No, you’re not the only one. I was also expecting something much milder especially after hearing the reports of the placenta wrapped in a towel, CM’s passport and mobile phones being found- I wrongly thought they must have been easily findable and identifiable.

I’m definitely no fire expert, but maybe the towel with the placenta wrapped in it was wet and that protected it to some extent? I honestly don’t know.

I was also very surprised to see that photo of the car. Do we know what caused the fire? Has anything been said about this?

 

[rockthecasbah]

I'm wondering what the smaller blurred out things are in the car photo, on the right

 

[Skigh]

I was also very surprised to see that photo of the car. Do we know what caused the fire? Has anything been said about this?

I know nothing about cars. Is it possible that they had the motor on to give light and heat whilst she gave birth and it caused problems with an old engine in a cheap second hand car and when driven over heated.

 

[JTT]

On 26 December, 7 days after allegedly attending a police station in Sheffield, MG allegedly attended a police station in Leeds - quite a long journey from Haltwhistle.

Aristocrat and boyfriend 'carried baby around in Lidl bag in fatal runaway bid'

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon were dubbed 'arrogant' and 'selfish' as their manslaughter trial began

www.standard.co.uk

Constance Marten and her lover 'caused death of their baby girl'

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon are accused at the Old Bailey in London of fleeing across the country in a 'desperately selfish' bid to prevent their fifth child being taken away from them.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[JTT]

I'm wondering what the smaller blurred out things are in the car photo, on the right

Dunno but there are three of them.

What do you make of the two pinkish pieces of what looks like packing material on the remains of the back seat? Whatever they were packing still seems to be inside them - a flattish thing of similar dimensions to a small laptop computer. That's unless they are seat innards. But they look like packing material to me.

Some kind of cooler for the placenta?

 

[ShadowPuppet]

Gosh, if she did give birth in the car, she had no time at all to recover because the timeline suggests from there they went to Bolton (8pm), then taxi to Liverpool, then Essex where they checked into a premier inn (3am). That was quickly followed by another change of hotel in the evening of the same day. It’s possible, but shocking. I’d imagine she’d be in an utter state after giving birth in a car that caught fire very shortly after.

I’m wondering about the gap in the timeline between 28 Dec and 4 Jan, but it seems the hotels on the 4th saw no sign of the baby? I know with my newborns people have missed them while they fed under a scarf. That was for shorter periods though and not in a hotel room where a cry might be heard. Then again, JMOO but if it was a fast labour, baby Victoria could have been very sleepy and less noticeable because of that as well? For the newborn items found around the burning car, I wonder if those were bought after the birth (suggesting an earlier birth date) or before?

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

subtle but interesting image isnt it

plus the line about there being a link available if she wants to join…makes her sound like a guest …rather than a person on trial

just editing to add….
CM is also being referred to as the second defendant.
I have never heard this term used in any other multiple defendant trial

Oh I see, I mistook the nuances of the original comment earlier.

Yes looks like MG is being positioned to be the fall guy and CM is being kept safe from the trials (literally!) and tribulations of court (and him).

It's interesting in terms of who has the wealth, privilege, connections, and power and who has... well, none of those.

JMO MOO

 

[JennieM]

I would be surprised if either of them took the stand. I imagine they will only make things worse for themselves.

 

[JTT]

The think that surprised me was that they had no possessions yet it has been reported they abandoned things in a field. Surely they could have rescued a few important items .

My interpretation was they scooped up a fair few items from the car and then somewhere in the field realised they'd taken too many for what might well turn out to be some serious-scale moving about without their own vehicle for a while and decided to jettison some.

 

[JTT]

Oh I see, I mistook the nuances of the original comment earlier.

Yes looks like MG is being positioned to be the fall guy and CM is being kept safe from the trials (literally!) and tribulations of court (and him).

It's interesting in terms of who has the wealth, privilege, connections, and power and who has... well, none of those.

JMO MOO

So the reason for her absence from court seems no longer to be her conferring with her legal team.

If one wishes to blame anyone, it's not her or her lawyers. It's the judge. But I wouldn't at this stage, when we have no idea what the reasons are.

But...see the Chicago Seven trial and the treatment of Bobby Seale (with whom at first it was the Chicago Eight trial).

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

If he had had a serious condition affecting his feet,I would have thought he would have been admitted to hospital immediately after his arrest.

Remember he was too unwell to attend his failure to attend hearings due to 'pain'? Maybe it was true. It's bad enough trying to get NHS treatment as a free agent these days, I'm not sure being banged up would get him any type of preferential service. Also he could have been treated by medics but not given a hospital stay or may have been in a medical wing for all we know.

JMO but I wonder if his feet were burned in the car fire? Or if he has a condition such as un-managed diabetes.

JMO MOO

 

[JTT]

I would be surprised if either of them took the stand. I imagine they will only make things worse for themselves.

If they take the stand, the judge might well have to instruct the jury that if they aren't sure that both defendants are lying, then they've got to acquit, at least on manslaughter, child cruelty, and allowing a child's death - and that thinking they're probably lying isn't sufficient. "You've heard them give evidence, members of the jury - it's up to you, what view you take of it. But as a matter of law..." This is speculation of course, but it might well turn out to apply if the two narratives and explanations regarding the accepted facts diverge the way they seem to be diverging. The prosecution would need to persuade 10 of the 12 jurors to a point that they were sure that they were definitely both lying. The defence would need to persuade 3 to the contrary.

They both seem to have been very strong at the police station - not answering questions when they didn't want to, and then answering them once the body had been found, and, at least as far as we know at this stage, not giving the police (who are skilled at interviewing) a lot of material in the interviews that's now being used against them.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Looking at the photo in the bus station I'm surprised the poor baby wasn't suffocated to death as her coat is totally zipped up with nowhere for air for the poor thing

Maybe she was suffocated to death? Bearing in mind that CM states the baby was inside her coat and when she woke up the baby had passed away.

JMO MOO

 

[porkypies]

The think that surprised me was that they had no possessions yet it has been reported they abandoned things in a field. Surely they could have rescued a few important items .

I imagine that the need to get away from the burning car and disappear was their priority as the arrival of the fire service/police etc would have caught them there and then.
Leaving a passport and phones must have ruined their plans.
It's interesting that even as fugitives, they did not prioritise such items which are very easy to keep hold of and most valuable to whoever is looking for you.

 

[JennieM]

Tattered clothes and bottles lay strewn on the ground next to the destroyed vehicle
(PA)

Inside burned out car ‘abandoned by on-the-run aristocrat, partner and tragic baby’

Constance Marten and her partner Mark Gordon deny manslaughter by gross negligence of the girl

www.independent.co.uk

 

[JTT]

Covid test, not vaccination. She would rather refuse a test than see her baby. Disgusting.

If that's true, then she is a nutcase to such an extent that it will come out easily in cross-examination if not in her evidence in chief. It doesn't sound true to me, given that she'd given birth in the hospital the day before. What if she hadn't discharged herself? Would they have kicked her out for not having a Covid test? Or by the next day was she in visitor rather than mother category and the rules state etc. The defence are likely to insist that the witness who is saying this about the Covid test comes and says it in the witness box.

 

[Parker Knoll]

When they refer to the first and second defendant on a joint charge it’s done alphabetically.