UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #5

[Cardgame]

Everytime I read that CM hung on to the body of her dead daughter because she wanted to 'get an autopsy' it reminds me just how out of touch with reality she was/is.
Where did she think she would get one without having to deal with the authorities she'd been at such great pains to avoid?
It's one of the reasons I think her legal team will try to prevent her taking the stand.

Does anyone believe that she really wanted an autopsy?

IMO that's just a thing she said.

None of her actions match up with the actions of someone who needs or wants an explanation as to what happened to a deceased loved one.

JMO.

 

[QB2022]

She had no intention of getting an autopsy.

God forbid I pulled the stunt she did, was too scared to hand myself in but realised the worse that happened. A rational person who cared would have wrapped the baby in a blanket and placed her somewhere you know she would be found quickly. It is the very last act of dignity and humanity they could have provided her and they failed.

 

[Baby baby Jane]

Sorry, what?!

Assuming the PC knows the difference between concave and convex, why would her head be concave?

Surely this isn't something that happens with decomposing babies?!

Convex, or indented can also be a sign of dehydration, (malnutrition)

 

[JennieM]

What a horrible place to leave your child. I had somewhat imagined it to at least be neatly packed, with a swaddled body at the bottom and some items carefully placed over the top.

I don't know why I assumed there would be evidence of care, regret and attempt to give their dead child some dignity, but I did.

I do think the items stored together in the bag does suggest that Victoria might have died before that date. Though maybe less so if there is stuff in there that's clearly from after around that time.

Edit:
I've always thought that them buying a pushchair and taking it with them from London is clear evidence they started their camping trip with a live baby. But I don't have a clear timeline in front of me.

Where were they around the 12th or whenever they bought the petrol and such, was that when they were outside or before?

I like the expression you used: evidence of care. It really sums it up.

What this trial is proving is that there is no evidence of care. It is very sad.

 

[JennieM]

I have only just read this.

When Victoria was found, media reports said her body was found underneath a pile of nappies.
I did not realise she was actually placed inside the same bag as the rubbish.

How absolutely despicable are these two accused people. I hope the Jury feel the same.

They will feel the same.

 

[Kye Zeeb]

Convex, or indented can also be a sign of dehydration, (malnutrition)

The defence may try to argue that it could be as a result of decomposition (JMO).

 

[JennieM]

We can all think of someone who received ‘sub-par treatment’ and it’s not them.


He got out of the wheelchair and sat on the floor in the interviewing room saying: "My legs are hurting…I'm in pain."
The interview resumed after he went to the bathroom, and he told officers: "I am experiencing pain and you are asking questions.
"I'm getting sub-par treatment. I don't think I should be talked to like I am a nobody. I'm in custody, but that doesn't mean I am a dog."

Jury in Constance Marten and Mark Gordon trial shown how police found baby

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon deny the manslaughter of Victoria, whose body was found in a shed.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Baby baby Jane]

We can all think of someone who received ‘sub-par treatment’ and it’s not them.


He got out of the wheelchair and sat on the floor in the interviewing room saying: "My legs are hurting…I'm in pain."
The interview resumed after he went to the bathroom, and he told officers: "I am experiencing pain and you are asking questions.
"I'm getting sub-par treatment. I don't think I should be talked to like I am a nobody. I'm in custody, but that doesn't mean I am a dog."

Jury in Constance Marten and Mark Gordon trial shown how police found baby

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon deny the manslaughter of Victoria, whose body was found in a shed.

www.bbc.co.uk

Mark Gordon, sub-par human.

 

[Kye Zeeb]

Everytime I read that CM hung on to the body of her dead daughter because she wanted to 'get an autopsy' it reminds me just how out of touch with reality she was/is.
Where did she think she would get one without having to deal with the authorities she'd been at such great pains to avoid?
It's one of the reasons I think her legal team will try to prevent her taking the stand.

JMO, there seems to be a total disconnection of both CM and MG from reality. I do hope they have had an adequate psychiatric assessment/report done. After today's evidence, I cannot see any way that anyone without some sort of serious psychiatric problem(s) would be capable of allowing these circumstances to get to the stage they did.

 

[JennieM]

WHY didn't they just give her up. They could have effed off and done whatever they wanted with their own lives. WHY didn't they just give her up
The arrogance and selfishness is overwhelming

They sacrificed her in a weirdly imagined vendetta against social services.

 

[JennieM]

Constance Marten sobs over video of herself telling police that baby in Lidl bag is her daughter​

Officers discovered infant's remains after pulling rubbish from carrier found in allotment shed

Will Bolton, CRIME CORRESPONDENT14 February 2024 • 9:51pm



Image credit: Police
The disused allotment shed


Image credit: Police
The bag in which the baby's body was found


[…]

The first thing he noticed was the smell, Pc Ralph said, adding: “I remember saying, ‘Either something is dead in there or something has died’.”

Inside there was a tent, out-of-date milk and bread on a makeshift table, and the shopping bag underneath, he said.

[…]

As they searched, his colleague indicated that he had seen what looked like the head of a doll, jurors heard.

[…]

In a police interview played in court, Ms Marten said she had given birth in Cumbria on Christmas Eve, 2022, and the baby had died in the Harwich area, in Essex, around Jan 8, 2023.

She wept and was handed tissues in court, as she watched the footage of herself.

[…]

Constance Marten sobs over video of herself telling police that baby in Lidl bag is her daughter

Officers discovered infant's remains after pulling rubbish from carrier found in allotment shed

www.telegraph.co.uk

 

[Willowy]

They sacrificed her in a weirdly imagined vendetta against social services.

I'm beginning to think this is exactly what happened here. Victoria was a victim of them sticking two fingers up to SS. Horrifying thought. Jmo.

The items they had on their arrest, pictured in the Mail, are fascinating. A £7 bottle of wine, hummus and vegetables. Peanut butter, jam. I think there's some sort of perfume or aftershave 'African Musk' which suggests they knew they didn't smell good? Or are they insense sticks? An ice cream and ice pops seem odd considering they were cold, presumably? They seem to understand what easy to prep food is likely to give them the most energy. With an understanding fruit and veg is important for health? More indication of some presence of mind, imo.

I'm also thinking there's only one child that matters to either of these two, and it's MG.

Constance Marten trial shown moment missing baby girl was found dead

The remains of baby Victoria, the daughter of Constance Marten and her partner Mark Gordon, were found in a disused shed on an allotment near where the couple had been detained.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Cardgame]

JMO, there seems to be a total disconnection of both CM and MG from reality. I do hope they have had an adequate psychiatric assessment/report done. After today's evidence, I cannot see any way that anyone without some sort of serious psychiatric problem(s) would be capable of allowing these circumstances to get to the stage they did.

I tend to think it seems more like fairly standard narc behaviour. JMO.

ETA: narcs have their own reality, in which other lesser mortals serve only to further their agenda

 

[QB2022]

They certainly don't sound very tee total

 

[QB2022]

JMO, there seems to be a total disconnection of both CM and MG from reality. I do hope they have had an adequate psychiatric assessment/report done. After today's evidence, I cannot see any way that anyone without some sort of serious psychiatric problem(s) would be capable of allowing these circumstances to get to the stage they did.

It doesn't make them any less culpable. Arguably, any individual who harms or neglects another isn't mentally healthy as someone who is wouldn't do these things.

 

[Kye Zeeb]

It doesn't make them any less culpable. Arguably, any individual who harms or neglects another isn't mentally healthy as someone who is wouldn't do these things.

It probably wouldn't affect culpability, I agree. But it might make a difference as to strategies/possible medical treatment put in place to prevent potential recurrence at some point in the future? JMO.

 

[ShadowPuppet]

True that most bender dwellers would have some kind of heating in the winter.

Regarding inadequate clothing, the cab driver's evidence sounds consistent with his looking in his rear view mirror and seeing Victoria being changed. This spawned headings such as this one in the Daily Express: "Moment Constance Marten ‘walks into bus station with naked baby under her jacket'" - surely somewhat imaginative unless the prosecution actually alleged that.

I mean more that the CCTV has demonstrated there was no coat/hat and didn’t seem to be one bought after the car fire (as far as I’ve heard so far). That would be a relatively common form of neglectful dress - not being naked, but simply not in warm enough clothes. It would be the equivalent of a child turning up to school in cold weather with no coat and hat and causing concern (usually alongside a number of other concerns). Not so much the weird nakedness headlines - I hadn’t seen those.

Inadequate environment can also be dirty and neglected (unsafe in some way), not necessarily just not warm enough, but I’d say the very fact that this lack of housing was not planned around infant safety makes it neglectful. There are many people who live outside a house with a baby, but usually they plan how they combat the issues that presents first and then carry that out.

 

[Pidgy]

It probably wouldn't affect culpability, I agree. But it might make a difference as to strategies/possible medical treatment put in place to prevent potential recurrence at some point in the future? JMO.

I was just reading about this. Some women recorded as having mental difficulties have been surgically sterilised by force in Britain (such as this woman in 2015), but in 2022 Britain ratified the Istanbul Convention which requires signatories to legislate to criminalise the practice (article 39). This obligation came into force in Britain on 1 Nov 2022.

 

[Pidgy]

I'm beginning to think this is exactly what happened here. Victoria was a victim of them sticking two fingers up to SS. Horrifying thought. Jmo.

The items they had on their arrest, pictured in the Mail, are fascinating. A £7 bottle of wine, hummus and vegetables. Peanut butter, jam. I think there's some sort of perfume or aftershave 'African Musk' which suggests they knew they didn't smell good? Or are they insense sticks? An ice cream and ice pops seem odd considering they were cold, presumably? They seem to understand what easy to prep food is likely to give them the most energy. With an understanding fruit and veg is important for health? More indication of some presence of mind, imo.

I'm also thinking there's only one child that matters to either of these two, and it's MG.

Constance Marten trial shown moment missing baby girl was found dead

The remains of baby Victoria, the daughter of Constance Marten and her partner Mark Gordon, were found in a disused shed on an allotment near where the couple had been detained.

www.dailymail.co.uk

I think they are incense sticks, yes.

HEM African Musk Hexa - Wonder Incense Ltd

African Musk Incense - HEM Incense, Wholesale Incense Supplies HEM African Musk Hexa Each Box contains 6 packets

www.easternconnection.co.uk

Is the scenario (from the prosecution, possibly accepted by the defence?) that their lifestyle for a while had been keeping their stuff in the shed (attested by police to be horribly foul-smelling) and putting up the tent every night after dark, or are they supposed to have been sleeping in the shed itself? They were arrested at 9.35pm and the tent wasn't up.

That cucumber seems to be in remarkably good condition if it was bought on 12 January and found seven weeks later on 1 March.

I hope evidence is brought from the foodbank. It's perhaps not too relevant to the question of guilt or innocence, but as an observer I'm interested in how they related to other people. It might yield some understanding that can't be got from e.g. video of them on their own in the dark outside the golf club.

 

[rightsaidfred]

I was just reading about this. Some women recorded as having mental difficulties have been surgically sterilised by force in Britain (such as this woman in 2015), but in 2022 Britain ratified the Istanbul Convention which requires signatories to legislate to criminalise the practice (article 39). This obligation came into force in Britain on 1 Nov 2022.

There are such vast differences between the case you linked to and CM that it becomes legally irrelevant.

The woman in that case had a learning disability so significant she lacked mental capacity, and further pregnancies would have put her own life in danger. That's why it was deemed in her best interests to be sterilised.

It's more a case about saving the woman from herself than saving the children of future pregnancies.