UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #5

[Pidgy]

I wonder if that was the reason the court did not sit on Monday and Tuesday.

It would tally with the notion that a solicitor had "administrative" work to do, i.e. finding and briefing new lead counsel. The judge said solicitors not barristers.

 

[Alyce]

4:28pm

Jury retires to return next week​

The jury has retired and will return on Monday morning for the prosecution case to continue.

Recap after jury shown police bodycam of moment baby found in Lidl bag in shed

Live updates as the trial of Constance Marten and Mark Gordon continues.

www.theargus.co.uk

 

[Nikynoo]

Well this afternoon's evidence is quite disturbing. The officer who found 'Baby Marten' as she was referred to in court has said, 'There was a pink balled up bloody blanket'... who's blood are we to assume that is? Death by suffocation does not produce bleeding. And I'm no expert, but I don't think decomposition does either, but perhaps someone more knowledgeable can comment on that?

The Agos commenting is then very unclear but says, 'A couple of seconds after we went to the other side of the bag. I put my hand down and it slipped. I looked in and that was the baby's leg. My hand was soaking wet. The baby was pale and cold to the touch' I can't work out if this is a gruesome outcome from bad decomposition or something else? It throws up more questions than it answers. It's shocking either way.

And the detritus found in the bag with her - just unfathomable. Two items also jumped out at me - a can of Bud (I thought they were supposed to be tea total?) and 2 Hollingbury Golf Course score cards? Why on earth? Immediately made me think of the hoarding tendencies which have been ruminated on before.

It is possible that the bloodied blanket was blood post birth. The wetness could come from residue in the cans (bud and coke)?, but yes, possible decomp fluids.

The golf score cards, may have been from when they went dumpster diving at the golf course? I'm surprised they were organised enough to be tidy (bearing in mind the state of the holiday let), in that they used the bag for storing rubbish.

 

[Nikynoo]

Number 5 ?



Marten was previously represented by John Ryder, KC, who had only attended the trial for one day in person, but was today represented by a new barrister Francis FitzGibbon, KC

Her junior barrister Tom Godfrey, who has been attending the trial, remains on the case.

Constance Marten's boyfriend claimed he was being treated like a 'dog'

Mark Gordon (pictured) said he was 'in pain' and demanded 'pills' as officers questioned him and about the whereabouts of his missing child in the hours before the newborn 's body was found.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Perhaps the new KC will be more aligned to CM as a person. It is really important that the client feels that they can work with whoever is representing them and that they represent the clients case in a way that the client agrees with.

 

[Skigh]

Perhaps the new KC will be more aligned to CM as a person. It is really important that the client feels that they can work with whoever is representing them and that they represent the clients case in a way that the client agrees with.

If this was KC number 2 ,I might be a inclined to agree with you,but the rate she is going through them leads me to believe that she is either an extremely difficult client to work with ,or she is deliberately being awkward in order for her KC to no longer be able to work with her ,leading to frequent delays in the trial.

 

[Twittens]

Items found in the Lidl bag for life include: A black blanket, a can of Budweiser, two Coke cans, two unused nappies, two Hollingbury Golf Club scorecards, a baby grow, a pink sheet wrapped around body of baby Marten, a glass water bottle of petrol, a pink baby vest, a WH Smith bag, several pages of The Sun dated January 12.

There is so much in this case that I've tried to understand, tried to empathise with, tried to get below the surface of, but this list, this cold little inventory, I just cannot get my head around. I don't know if they're guilty or not. Tbh, I don't even entirely understand the charges. But how any parent of a deceased newborn could possibly store their child's body in a shopping bag of rubbish like this is totally, totally beyond me.

 

[Smccat]

If this was as KC number 2 ,I might be a inclined to agree with you,but the rate she is going through them leads me to believe that she is an extremely difficult client to work with ,or she is deliberately being awkward in order for her KC to no longer be able to work with her ,leading to frequent delays in the trial.

Maybe she wants to take the stand and each new barrister is advising strongly against it.

 

[Alyce]

If this was as KC number 2 ,I might be a inclined to agree with you,but the rate she is going through them leads me to believe that she is an extremely difficult client to work with ,or she is deliberately being awkward in order for her KC to no longer be able to work with her ,leading to frequent delays in the trial.

Absolutely this.
I have followed plenty of trials over the years on WS and this is the first time I have ever seen an accused person/defendant go through so many changes of legal representation.
You would think, given she was arrested and charged more than one year ago, that by now, CM would have been able to find someone that she might manage to work with - and who would represent her interests in a way that she is comfortable with. When you look at the track record of these eminent KCs and the legal teams behind them, it paints its own picture.
IMO only of course.

 

[Skigh]

If the jury know they will not be needed in court for 2 days,would they have to go back to their place of work for those days ?

 

[bobbymkii]

If the jury know they will not be needed in court for 2 days,would they have to go back to their place of work for those days ?

If their employer wants them to work then I would guess so, yes!

 

[Pidgy]

Maybe she wants to take the stand and each new barrister is advising strongly against it.

It won't be that in itself. That's up to her. A barrister in that position should continue to represent his client whatever she chooses, even with a strategy he thinks is idiotic. The same goes for if he thinks she's lying. Nobody cares what he thinks happened. What he's not allowed to do is to continue with a not guilty plea if a client has TOLD him they are lying or guilty, or to give advice on how to break the law.

Another thing a barrister is not allowed to do is to tell the jury about a plea bargain offer. But it's not professionally compromising if a client asks him to. He will just say he's not allowed to.

It gets more interesting if a client says fine, you won't do it, so I'll do it when I give my evidence. The judge might get a trifle narky with his brother in silk if he thinks he had prior knowledge of what was going to happen. Sometimes a client will sack their barrister at the last moment so that they can do it in their closing speech, which is allowed if they're representing themselves.

 

[Pidgy]

DBM

 

[Pidgy]

Absolutely this.
I have followed plenty of trials over the years on WS and this is the first time I have ever seen an accused person/defendant go through so many changes of legal representation.
You would think, given she was arrested and charged more than one year ago, that by now, CM would have been able to find someone that she might manage to work with - and who would represent her interests in a way that she is comfortable with. When you look at the track record of these eminent KCs and the legal teams behind them, it paints its own picture.
IMO only of course.

What IYO might she be doing to make so many barristers sack her?

Out of interest who is her solicitor? Is she going through solicitors like a knife through butter too?

Also what about her co-defendant? Has someone got a canonical list of the legal representatives in this case on the defence side? I'm kinda losing track.

 

[StillDiggin]

Constance Marten trial shown moment missing baby girl was found dead

The remains of baby Victoria, the daughter of Constance Marten and her partner Mark Gordon, were found in a disused shed on an allotment near where the couple had been detained.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Cardgame]

IMO it seems v clear to me that they placed the baby in a bag full of rubbish, hoping that she would never be found.

The question you have to ask, if you accept that is true, is WHY?

What were they trying to to hide?

They knew law enforcement knew about the baby. They couldn't his the existence of the baby. Their plan was to conceal the baby's body. Why?

Why? Why? Why?

And how could anyone do such a thing?

 

[porkypies]

That several pages of a newspaper of 12 January were found in the bag with the body supports CM's statement that Victoria died the previous day. (It doesn't prove it, but the defence don't have to prove anything.)

How does the date on the newspaper support any specific date for the death of the baby?
In the same vein, what do the golf score-cards support other than the rooting about in bins at the golf-club?

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Absolutely this.
I have followed plenty of trials over the years on WS and this is the first time I have ever seen an accused person/defendant go through so many changes of legal representation.
You would think, given she was arrested and charged more than one year ago, that by now, CM would have been able to find someone that she might manage to work with - and who would represent her interests in a way that she is comfortable with. When you look at the track record of these eminent KCs and the legal teams behind them, it paints its own picture.
IMO only of course.

When barristers step off the job, they must have solid grounds and these would always constitute them being unable to perform their duty to the court, it's very serious and can't be done lightly.

I’ve been professionally embarrassed. Can I withdraw from a Crown Court case?

I’m representing a client privately in the Crown Court. Following my client’s instructions, I concluded that I’ve been professionally embarrassed and would like to withdraw from the case. Can I do that?

www.lawsociety.org.uk

ETA: Sarah Boone, in the USA, has just lost her seventh court appointed lawyer who has withdrawn. She appears to be un-workable with, despite having now been held in custody with no trial for four years, it seemingly hasn't given incentive to change whatever the problem is.

 

[QB2022]

They couldn't even give victoria the dignity of not placing her in a bag of rubbish. Tossed alongside beer cans.

It makes me sick to my stomach

 

[Telltale]

What a horrible place to leave your child. I had somewhat imagined it to at least be neatly packed, with a swaddled body at the bottom and some items carefully placed over the top.

I don't know why I assumed there would be evidence of care, regret and attempt to give their dead child some dignity, but I did.

I do think the items stored together in the bag does suggest that Victoria might have died before that date. Though maybe less so if there is stuff in there that's clearly from after around that time.

Edit:
I've always thought that them buying a pushchair and taking it with them from London is clear evidence they started their camping trip with a live baby. But I don't have a clear timeline in front of me.

Where were they around the 12th or whenever they bought the petrol and such, was that when they were outside or before?

 

[Lucy6226]

What a horrible place to leave your child. I had somewhat imagined it to at least be neatly packed, with a swaddled body at the bottom and some items carefully placed over the top.

I don't know why I assumed there would be evidence of care, regret and attempt to give their dead child some dignity, but I did.

I do think the items stored together in the bag does suggest that Victoria might have died before that date. Though maybe less so if there is stuff in there that's clearly from after around that time.

Edit:
I've always thought that them buying a pushchair and taking it with them from London is clear evidence they started their camping trip with a live baby. But I don't have a clear timeline in front of me.

Where were they around the 12th or whenever they bought the petrol and such, was that when they were outside or before?

I'd definitely imagined something less horrific. Powerful and very damaging images seen by the jury today imo