Recovered/Located UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon & Newborn, left a broken down car on motorway, Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023

[Perodicticus potto]

perhaps she feared the baby would be taken away as soon as it was born (I don't know if that's something that can happen,

Yes it is - Google "Leiland-James Corkill" for a case that went tragically wrong. Other cases presumably have happier endings (for the child).

 

[PembrokeLove]

I believe I’m caught up and the police angle is still confusing to me. So please understand where this comes from - I’m in the us and an ARNP and Certified Nurse Midwife. Is it, like… not legal to give birth at home in England? This seems like a lot of press for someone who, ultimately, just had a home birth - possibly even an unintended birth outside of the hospital. Are all babies required to be observed by a physician or midwife within so many hours of birth? Beyond that, there are only two other scenarios I can see here.

1. Head injury, either traumatic from the accident or intercranial due to birth trauma or some anoxic, organic process. Having both had anoxic brain damage myself and knowing many people with traumatic brain damage - and especially damage to the prefrontal cortex - the paranoia with eat you alive while the brain is healing. All of these calls with the specific language “we don’t want to hurt you, we want to help you” - that’s some Baker Act language, and you can bet your buttons that I wouldn’t come in when I was recently injured. I would be sure it was a trap. I went through months where I believed doctors were trying to kill me (I had been injured by a surgeon struggling with substance abuse whilst in surgery, for context) and I would absolutely have hidden if the police started saying they just wanted to take me to a doctor. Hecksters naw.

2. This has been discussed a bit and I’ll keep it short, but where are her other children? Have any - or all - of her older children been taken into care? Was their family currently under an observation contract where her child may have been taken at birth? That is the only other thing I can think of, other than just highly conspiratorial items involving her station of birth, her journalistic career, and other things which have already been mentioned in earlier comments.

As a midwifery professional, I’m super interested in that first bit, though. Is it just illegal to give birth without supervision or follow up? That would be wild.

 

[JuicyLucy]

Running from Social Services makes sense. My initial thought was that they may have been running from something like a criminal gang - the cult she was involved in investigating, for example - but if that were the case the police wouldn't be blasting their likely location all over the media.

Hypothetically speaking, if her other children had been taken into care, and Social Services knew she was pregnant, perhaps she feared the baby would be taken away as soon as it was born (I don't know if that's something that can happen, but all that matters if they believe it can) it would explain why she gave birth in secret and they planned on running away. They bought a car for that purpose (I'm guessing in cash) it broke down so they torched it to cover their tracks and paid for taxis so payments couldn't be traced. If there's a genuine concern for the child's welfare - for example whatever happened to the other kids potentially happening to the new baby - it would explain the high profile appeal and the door-to-door searches which seem heavy-handed on the face of it.

Purely a theory, I'm not accusing anyone of anything and I very much hope this really is all just about a postnatal check-up and nothing more, but it's the only way I personally can make the pieces fit. Hopefully all three are happy, healthy and well.

Leaving aside the fact that anyone hoping to stay under the radar would be highly unlikely to torch a car on a motorway, most of this hypothesis fits with the popular narrative that's developing. Personally, I'm not so sure. CM is a well resourced individual who has travelled a great deal, and if you look at her facebook it's clear she has a lot of friends and family in other countries. I think in this scenario, she would have been more likely to leave the country while still pregnant rather than going on the run with an undocumented newborn. I also think that the removal of newborns, whilst not uncommon, would be unlikely to result in this extraordinary level of police activity (checking every hotel and B&B in a radius of the last sighting, etc). So I suspect something more tbh,<modsnip - not victim friendly>

Just my opinion.

 

[shinimeggie]

Is it, like… not legal to give birth at home in England? This seems like a lot of press for someone who, ultimately, just had a home birth - possibly even an unintended birth outside of the hospital. Are all babies required to be observed by a physician or midwife within so many hours of birth?

Drawing on my social work training from ten years ago...

No, it's not illegal to have a home or otherwise unattended birth. You don't have to have anyone there or do anything you don't want to do, as long as you're not under any care plan for you or the baby that says you do have to be in a certain place and/or with certain people.

To me, the wording they use is less Baker Act (which I understand to be similar to being sectioned in the UK -- mental health treatment, normally against someone's will) and more their child is in a situation that has been deemed as potentially unsafe for the child.

That may be because previous children have been taken away, or risk factors were identified before and during pregnancy that meant the child would be under a care order (used to be the 'at risk' register but that changed since my training) which means that she did have to attend at hospital (or have a midwife/paramedics in attendance) to give birth, as far as biologically possible, and present the baby to certain care professionals for tests, monitoring, or removal.

Seems less likely, but it's also possible the mother had identified risk factors to her and the baby such as gestational diabetes or other pregnancy-related disorders (I'm not a medical professional so I'm sure they can fill in the gaps!) that means the police have concern for her and the baby due to medical, not emotional, social or physical reasons.

I think the wording would be different if there was an identified medical issue, with more focus on the certainty that checks need doing than the vague idea of something could be wrong as it could be with any otherwise healthy-seeming pregnancy.

She would be far, far from the first mother to go on the run with a child to try and get out of the grips of social services -- rightly or wrongly. However, I think her case got more attention than some because she didn't just disappear from home with her partner, but they had this mysterious breakdown that left them in a vulnerable position with a newborn, and that they haven't reached out since to even say 'we're fine'.

 

[Perodicticus potto]

Here's some information from the charity Birthrights about unassisted birth in the UK. Bottom line: it's legal but may result in a referral to Social Services if a medical professional thinks the baby's at risk (NB this doesn't mean Social Services will accept the referral).

It would have been illegal for the dad to deliver the child if not qualified to do so, but I don't think that's been alleged.

 

[neesaki]

I did wonder if the baby was born suddenly <modsnip - no link> and they made their own way to hospital because of the ambulance shortage. If there's a 999 call on record, that could explain how police know about the birth. Very worrying.

Does anyone know why the ambulance shortage? I didn’t realize there was one. TIA

 

[MsMiniSleuth]

Does anyone know why the ambulance shortage? I didn’t realize there was one. TIA

There is not a shortage per se, there are ongoing strikes which paramedics have been involved in.

 

[shinimeggie]

Does anyone know why the ambulance shortage? I didn’t realize there was one. TIA

Unfortunately, ambulance shortages aren't uncommon -- a woman in late stage labour is a Category 3 call, the second lowest, so they would be put on the backburner over life-threatening events such as heart attacks and seizures. If there was too long a wait for an ambulance or if possible, someone in labour may be asked if they can make their own way to hospital.

There's also been problems with ambulances being stuck at hospitals longer than normal because of queuing -- instead of 15 minutes, it's been 30 minutes or more. And then, of course, there's the ongoing strikes, although this date wasn't a strike day.

So ambulances have been short for a while in most areas, worse in some than others.

The BBC is where I've seen most of this information but there's far too much over this year alone for me to seek out each individual source.

ETA: Not the only source I've seen or used, but here's a link to some information about ambulance delays, queuing, and the social/mental health reasons why ambulances and their workers are in difficulty.

 

[Perodicticus potto]

The BBC is where I've seen most of this information but there's far too much over this year alone for me to seek out each individual source.

The BBC have put all their coverage of the ambulance crisis onto one section of their website if anyone wants to read further. I don't want to divert the thread into politics, but the problems are complex and long in the making. The recent strikes are definitely not the main cause (and as stated, the couple didn't vanish on a strike day).

 

[shinimeggie]

The BBC have put all their coverage of the ambulance crisis onto one page if anyone wants to read further. I don't want to divert the thread into politics, but the problems are complex and long in the making. The recent strikes are definitely not the main cause (and as stated, the couple didn't vanish on a strike day).

Thank you!

I read daily on there about ambulance issues, and then there's that great TV show Ambulance which talks a lot about why there are delays and issues and how it's changed over the years from a mostly medical service to a service that is dealing more with mental health crisis and social issues.

 

[QB2022]

I believe I’m caught up and the police angle is still confusing to me. So please understand where this comes from - I’m in the us and an ARNP and Certified Nurse Midwife. Is it, like… not legal to give birth at home in England? This seems like a lot of press for someone who, ultimately, just had a home birth - possibly even an unintended birth outside of the hospital. Are all babies required to be observed by a physician or midwife within so many hours of birth? Beyond that, there are only two other scenarios I can see here.

1. Head injury, either traumatic from the accident or intercranial due to birth trauma or some anoxic, organic process. Having both had anoxic brain damage myself and knowing many people with traumatic brain damage - and especially damage to the prefrontal cortex - the paranoia with eat you alive while the brain is healing. All of these calls with the specific language “we don’t want to hurt you, we want to help you” - that’s some Baker Act language, and you can bet your buttons that I wouldn’t come in when I was recently injured. I would be sure it was a trap. I went through months where I believed doctors were trying to kill me (I had been injured by a surgeon struggling with substance abuse whilst in surgery, for context) and I would absolutely have hidden if the police started saying they just wanted to take me to a doctor. Hecksters naw.

2. This has been discussed a bit and I’ll keep it short, but where are her other children? Have any - or all - of her older children been taken into care? Was their family currently under an observation contract where her child may have been taken at birth? That is the only other thing I can think of, other than just highly conspiratorial items involving her station of birth, her journalistic career, and other things which have already been mentioned in earlier comments.

As a midwifery professional, I’m super interested in that first bit, though. Is it just illegal to give birth without supervision or follow up? That would be wild.

The UK are a lot less open than the US. They aren't allowed to state exactly why they are looking for them, so I wouldn't take the police comments as anything other than a surface explanation. MOO based on similar cases I am almost certain she is running from social services. Home births aren't an issue here at all, hiding a birth to run from social services is. Plenty of people have home births.

 

[ScalableHeights]

Leaving aside the fact that anyone hoping to stay under the radar would be highly unlikely to torch a car on a motorway, most of this hypothesis fits with the popular narrative that's developing. Personally, I'm not so sure. CM is a well resourced individual who has travelled a great deal, and if you look at her facebook it's clear she has a lot of friends and family in other countries. I think in this scenario, she would have been more likely to leave the country while still pregnant rather than going on the run with an undocumented newborn. I also think that the removal of newborns, whilst not uncommon, would be unlikely to result in this extraordinary level of police activity (checking every hotel and B&B in a radius of the last sighting, etc). So I suspect something more tbh,<modsnip - not victim friendly>

Just my opinion.

Re: torching the car, my thinking was they may have done it to try and prevent the authorities identifying it as theirs, but you're right about it drawing attention (although they may not have been thinking rationally). It's also entirely possible they bought an old banger for cash specifically for this journey and it was so clapt out it broke down and caught fire.

Another possibility that occurred to me (possibly a long shot) is if CM has a history of postpartum psychosis and gave birth out of hospital where her mood couldn't be monitored it could explain a lot - the erratic behaviour of the parents, the we-just-want-to-help messaging of the police and their activity which suggests they may fear an imminent danger to life.

According to the NHS, symptoms can include delusions, feeling suspicious and fearful, and acting out of character. It can get worse quickly and endanger mother & child. Just a thought, but it would explain the high profile it's getting - mother and baby in danger - and the gaps of what they're not saying as this kind of medical information would understandably kept private.

 

[amaraya]

ok, so i finally had a peek at her SM page, i am not sure if he has one or not, but the first thing that struck me is that we have a couple friends in common and those friends we have in common are/were djs and i would say underground party people, and all mostly from the u.s. I found that strange.

more importantly, if it hasnt been mentioned, there is a group page on her SM about social services being exposed, and it seemed to be inactive since 2021.

I think that this tells us a bit about how likely she is to respond to the pleas of social services, and it makes me think that she / they have had other dealings with them before, and i will assume they werent positive.

i also wonder if perhaps they are not being helped by others who hold the same view of social services and will thereby not be checking in with anyone anytime soon. Has anyone seen anything from the family or about him?

sorry if it was mentioned earlier, i'm home with the flu and a very foggy head
imho

 

[Tower]

I think that's because they're only worried about the babies welfare, and nothing else.

It's a bit nanny state....if the baby needed health care, I'm sure she'd take her baby to receive some.

As odd as this disappearance is, I'm in favour of letting adults be adults.

I agree, I’m surprised it is anyone’s business that a 35-year-old, her newborn and her partner are voluntary missing and must come in to have the baby assessed. Many women for centuries have given birth without medical intervention. There may be concerns about the baby’s welfare, but if she’s been spotted and there is no indication they are in need of lifesaving help, it’s time to let them be. I’m guessing there are other reasons why authorities are concerned? I’m NOT implying this is the case for this mother, but here in my state in the US, authorities want to check their status if the mom was suspected of substance use, for example. But I haven’t seen any concern for that. Jmo
ETA: Sorry to be repetitive. I hadn’t updated the thread and all of these things have been discussed. Weird case!

 

[Knitty]

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[amaraya]

I agree, I’m surprised it is anyone’s business that a 35-year-old, her newborn and her partner are voluntary missing and must come in to have the baby assessed. Many women for centuries have given birth without medical intervention. There may be concerns about the baby’s welfare, but if she’s been spotted and there is no indication they are in need of lifesaving help, it’s time to let them be. I’m guessing there are other reasons why authorities are concerned? I’m NOT implying this is the case for this mother, but here in my state in the US, authorities want to check their status if the mom was suspected of substance use, for example. But I haven’t seen any concern for that. Jmo
ETA: Sorry to be repetitive. I hadn’t updated the thread and all of these things have been discussed. Weird case!

unless they do not have custody of the other children and have concerns about care? But we do not know if they have the other children, such a weird case...

 

[Megnut]

Perhaps they aren't on the run from LE. Perhaps there's a real target on their backs.
JMO

 

[swedepete]

I find this case to be increasingly unsettling.
Ms Marten is incredibly well-connected socially in the UK, by way of an extensive family network on both her mother´s and father´s side.
There are heaps of uncles and aunts and lots and lots of cousins, as well as two younger, adult brothers.
The fact that there are no public appeals being broadcast from this huge family network is, in my mind, staggering!
Her family is also one of the wealthiest land-owning families in the south of England, and still part-owners of the long-time family estate of Crichel Park - of some 6000 acres - in Dorset, near the Cranborne Chase, and neighbouring the Cranborne Estate of the Marquess of Salisbury (of Hatfield House fame).
Coupled with the various Royal connections of Constance´s family, you certainly can´t be more "privileged" in a strictly material or social sense of the word.
This case, quite frankly, fails to make any sense to me, and I feel there might be a disturbing undercurrent somewhere, hidden away from public knowledge, possibly coupled with some kind of "rebellious" drive, as well!
It´s all very baffling indeed!

 

[NeverPersonal]

I agree, I’m surprised it is anyone’s business that a 35-year-old, her newborn and her partner are voluntary missing and must come in to have the baby assessed. Many women for centuries have given birth without medical intervention. There may be concerns about the baby’s welfare, but if she’s been spotted and there is no indication they are in need of lifesaving help, it’s time to let them be. I’m guessing there are other reasons why authorities are concerned? I’m NOT implying this is the case for this mother, but here in my state in the US, authorities want to check their status if the mom was suspected of substance use, for example. But I haven’t seen any concern for that. Jmo
ETA: Sorry to be repetitive. I hadn’t updated the thread and all of these things have been discussed. Weird case

the placenta doesn't always fall away on its own. it can stay in and cause septic shock and even death. there are plenty of other potential complications (severe tearing, bleeding internally, you name it). many women who have given birth without medical intervention have also died due to these complications, unsanitary conditions, lack of medical knowledge if something does arise. it's why most women these days do indeed choose to give birth at a hospital or birthing center instead of on their own.

 

[NeverPersonal]

I find this case to be increasingly unsettling.
Ms Marten is incredibly well-connected socially in the UK, by way of an extensive family network on both her mother´s and father´s side.
There are heaps of uncles and aunts and lots and lots of cousins, as well as two younger, adult brothers.
The fact that there are no public appeals being broadcast from this huge family network is, in my mind, staggering!
Her family is also one of the wealthiest land-owning families in the south of England, and still part-owners of the long-time family estate of Crichel Park - of some 6000 acres - in Dorset, near the Cranborne Chase, and neighbouring the Cranborne Estate of the Marquess of Salisbury (of Hatfield House fame).
Coupled with the various Royal connections of Constance´s family, you certainly can´t be more "privileged" in a strictly material or social sense of the word.
This case, quite frankly, fails to make any sense to me, and I feel there might be a disturbing undercurrent somewhere, hidden away from public knowledge, possibly coupled with some kind of "rebellious" drive, as well!
It´s all very baffling indeed!

You are right. Doesn't make any sense.
Maybe folie a deux?