Identified! UK - David Lytton, South Pennines, 'Neil Dovestone', 65-75, Dec'15

[Ellmau]

I've been digging on the various genealogy and peerage sites and I can't see a legitimate link. I suppose he could be connected out of wedlock, which might also explain why I can't find a birth registration for the right age, but I'm not entirely convinced.

 

[Elainera]

I've found an actual photograph of Victor Lytton.
I see such a strong resemblance I feel that there must be a family connection here somewhere.
I wonder if we could get Carl K to the thread to pass his opinion?

http://www.npgprints.com/image/4108...eorge-robert-bulwer-lytton-2nd-earl-of-lytton

Of course, none of this explains the Saddleworth part of it.
I'm feeling the need to go up there and have a look around. I will only go when the weather is decent and when my friend who lives locally can accompany me as I'm not a good hiker and don't trust myself trying to follow an OS map of the area.
As I've said many times on this thread the area spooks me even on a summer day and I drive across there without stopping!

The resemblance is uncanny!

 

[Elainera]

I had a few things to say (or actually question) about the guy at hand and what led him to basically go out into the "boondocks" to kill himself. I will post that a little later.


I just wanted to thank you tremendously for posting that website. And I wanted to say that it is super-accurate (and cool) as Hell!!!

I have a British/UK surname (Lockett) because my (British) paternal grandfather married an American woman (from Indiana) and lived out his life in Indiana and when he got to be older and he kind of moved around the country to be with his children in a few different states. They were married sometime in the 1940s.

My county was noted as having "some, but few" (the turquoise-ishy color) Lockett's in Nelson County KY. That amazed me because the Locketts in my county are solely me and my parents.

Boyle County is also the same color and I'm certain it's due to my dad's "part-time" place. He is a professor at Centre College and their tiny house is for if he has to stay on campus late or if he has to do something there very early in the morning.

We have a small place in Jefferson County (Louisville) from when I was in college at Bellarmine. My brother "stole" it after I got my degree. He now has his degree, so I don't understand why he still gets "MY" place in the city even though he has a Masters and merely works at a thrift store.

Again, thanks SO much for finding/posting that website. I've been playing around with it ever since I saw it about an hour or so ago. My moms a genealogy-nut so I gave her the website to look at, and I'm sure she'll latch onto it like an addict that finds themselves a newer/better/cheaper dealer.

Thanks a billion once more.

BTW, it says that there are some Lytton's in Kentucky. There are few (light green) in Jefferson County (Louisville in north-central KY) and Laurel County (London [KY] and Corbin) which is in the foothills of the mountains of SE Kentucky.

You're very welcome bflocket! I'm glad the website makes you so happy and excited. It is indeed a very interesting site.

 

[Elainera]

I've been digging on the various genealogy and peerage sites and I can't see a legitimate link. I suppose he could be connected out of wedlock, which might also explain why I can't find a birth registration for the right age, but I'm not entirely convinced.

If he was born out of wedlock would he still have the name then?

I think there must be a connection way back, possibly even as far as the 18th century.

 

[lizziginne]

I'm so glad Mr Lytton has his name back!

 

[dotr]

Fwiw, there is a Lytton town and mountain in BC Canada.

Lytton was on the route of the Gold Rush in 1858. That same year, Lytton was named for Edward Bulwer-Lytton, the British Colonial Secretary and a novelist.[SUP][2][/SUP] For many years Lytton was a stop on major transportation routes, namely, the River Trail from 1858, Cariboo Wagon Road in 1862, the Canadian Pacific Railway in the 1880s, the Cariboo Highway in the 1920s, and the Trans Canada Highway in the 1950s. However, it has become much less important since the construction of the Coquihalla Highway in 1987 which uses a more direct route to the BC Interior.

[h=2]Name origin[/h]Novelist Bulwer-Lytton was a friend and contemporary of Charles Dickens and was one of the pioneers of the historical novel, exemplified by his most popular work, The Last Days of Pompeii. He is best remembered today for the opening line to the novel Paul Clifford, which begins "It was a dark and stormy night..." and is considered by some to be the worst opening sentence in the English language.[SUP][3][/SUP] However, Bulwer-Lytton is also responsible for well-known sayings such as "The pen is mightier than the sword" from his play Richelieu. Despite being a very popular author for 19th century readers, few people today are even aware of his prodigious body of literature spanning many genres

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lytton,_British_Columbia

 

[bflocket]

The Levothyroxine Sodium (standard treatment for hypothyroid conditions) may well be the key to identifying him, assuming it was indeed his own medication.

The NHS pulls hypothyroid patients in for annual bloodtests and, having established the correct dose, then allows the patient to order 6 prescriptions, each for 2 months supply. So in the very near future there is an elderly hypothyroid male patient from London or the south east who will either not turn up for his annual bloodtest or will not make any further prescription requests. I'd have thought that talking to GPs practices in the area, showing his photo and details of the likely doseage, may produce a result.

It would also be worth circulating his photo and dose information to pharmacies in the region as this guy will have to have been a regular user of dispensing services.

My mom's a doctor (Internist, but here in BFE she basically does what a GP does). I basically grew up in the office (I'd get off the school bus there) and currently work in the "front office" part (dictation, paperwork, etc) so I know a bit about the routine meds she gives people. Many patients are on that and it's brand name in the US is "Synthroid" and generics are labelled "Levothyroxine." Those samples are in small amounts (a week-or-so) and are in cards where you pop them out. I've never seen them in an actual bottle. But that's probably how they'd be (a larger stock bottle) in a Pharmacy.

I found several websites where you can order pharmaceuticals from India. With all of the drugs on their pages, it sounds like "mail-order from India" is basically like "going on a run down I-75" (opiate lovers would go down to Florida for easy prescriptions).

But I don't think that's done as much anymore since they've tightened the reigns on pills in the US and basically caused a heroin epidemic all over the country. Those Indian establishments (from a brief look around their websites) don't sound like they need or ask for approval from a doctor. If it was such a bottle (w/o name, dosage, doctor name, etc) bottles, he may have been diagnosed with hypothyroid at one time and found the dose that works for him and just kept with it without going in to see a doctor again.

As it wasn't a prescription/Pharmacy bottle, could it have been any of these???
They look sort of like a "generic brand name" or however you'd say it. Many "generic" companies have their own name for the generics they make. I have some generic Benadryl™ (Diphenhydramine) that the company calls "Diphenhist."


That probably doesn't matter much since he's now been ID'ed, but I just found it odd for him to have a "stock bottle" of Synthroid, not one of the little orange bottles with your name/dosage on it like you get in pharmacies over here. I've been to Ireland (kinda like the UK) a few times, but I didn't get sick or have any reason to see what prescription bottles look like on the other side of the pond.

 

[mandarama]

I'm so pleased to see that he has finally been identified after thinking that it might never happen. RIP David Lytton.

 

[Ellmau]

If he was born out of wedlock would he still have the name then?

Traditionally an illegitimate child takes its mother's name, but legally you can call yourself what you like, so who knows, really.

 

[easynic150]

What about the medication? Where did he get it from? Where did he stay, when he landed?


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[CoverMeCagney]

What about the medication? Where did he get it from? Where did he stay, when he landed?


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I suppose the police might know that now they have a name to cross reference. They commented that he'd taken "positive action to not be in possession of certain items of property" which I guess is his passport, wallet etc.

I don't get it. Why come all this way just to commit suicide, in an apparently random spot? I really think there has to be a connection, but what is it?? He asked for the way to "the top of the mountain" rather than saying Indian's Head or Dovestones or whatever. Mountain - plane crash? Mountain - avalanche?

I felt all happy this morning that he's been named, still am, but also now frustrated there are more questions than answers! I'm not sure GMPolice will do another presser and the coroner has warned against intrusion, hopefully the press will try and set the story straight. Because... rightly or wrongly, I WANNA KNOOOOOW!

 

[easynic150]

Found this on Wikipedia

After injection, inhalation, or ingestion, the first symptoms to appear are generalized muscle spasms. They appear very quickly after inhalation or injection — within as few as five minutes — and take somewhat longer to manifest after ingestion, typically approximately 15 minutes. With a very high dose, the onset of respiratory failure and brain death can occur in 15 to 30 minutes. If a lower dose is ingested, other symptoms begin to develop, including seizures, cramping, stiffness, hypervigilance, and agitation. Seizures caused by strychnine poisoning can start as early as 15 minutes after exposure and last 12 - 24 hours. They are often triggered by sights, sounds, or touch and can cause other adverse symptoms, including hyperthermia, rhabdomyolysis, myoglobinuric kidney failure, metabolic acidosis, and respiratory acidosis. During seizures, mydriasis (abnormal dilation), exophthalmos (protrusion of the eyes), and nystagmus (involuntary eye movements) may occur.

As strychnine poisoning progresses, tachycardia (rapid heart beat), hypertension (high blood pressure), tachypnea (rapid breathing), cyanosis (blue discoloration), diaphoresis (sweating), water-electrolyte imbalance, leukocytosis (high number of white blood cells), trismus (lockjaw), risus sardonicus (spasm of the facial muscles), and opisthotonus (dramatic spasm of the back muscles, causing arching of the back and neck) can occur. In rare cases, the affected person may experience nausea or vomiting.


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[easynic150]

I suppose the police might know that now they have a name to cross reference. They commented that he'd taken "positive action to not be in possession of certain items of property" which I guess is his passport, wallet etc.

I don't get it. Why come all this way just to commit suicide, in an apparently random spot? I really think there has to be a connection, but what is it?? He asked for the way to "the top of the mountain" rather than saying Indian's Head or Dovestones or whatever. Mountain - plane crash? Mountain - avalanche?

I felt all happy this morning that he's been named, still am, but also now frustrated there are more questions than answers! I'm not sure GMPolice will do another presser and the coroner has warned against intrusion, hopefully the press will try and set the story straight. Because... rightly or wrongly, I WANNA KNOOOOOW!

He made the journey in the rush hour And he paid nearly £100 for the trip (tube and train tickets) bought a sandwich. He couldn't have walked to Greenfield


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[CoverMeCagney]

Found this on Wikipedia

After injection, inhalation, or ingestion, the first symptoms to appear are generalized muscle spasms. They appear very quickly after inhalation or injection — within as few as five minutes — and take somewhat longer to manifest after ingestion, typically approximately 15 minutes. With a very high dose, the onset of respiratory failure and brain death can occur in 15 to 30 minutes. If a lower dose is ingested, other symptoms begin to develop, including seizures, cramping, stiffness, hypervigilance, and agitation. Seizures caused by strychnine poisoning can start as early as 15 minutes after exposure and last 12 - 24 hours. They are often triggered by sights, sounds, or touch and can cause other adverse symptoms, including hyperthermia, rhabdomyolysis, myoglobinuric kidney failure, metabolic acidosis, and respiratory acidosis. During seizures, mydriasis (abnormal dilation), exophthalmos (protrusion of the eyes), and nystagmus (involuntary eye movements) may occur.

As strychnine poisoning progresses, tachycardia (rapid heart beat), hypertension (high blood pressure), tachypnea (rapid breathing), cyanosis (blue discoloration), diaphoresis (sweating), water-electrolyte imbalance, leukocytosis (high number of white blood cells), trismus (lockjaw), risus sardonicus (spasm of the facial muscles), and opisthotonus (dramatic spasm of the back muscles, causing arching of the back and neck) can occur. In rare cases, the affected person may experience nausea or vomiting.


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Flipping heck. It feels like he was making a point. Even if he wanted to die in England, there are easier ways to do it than trekking up to Saddleworth, it's not exactly known as a national beauty spot either, quite the opposite with all the shenanigans that have gone on up there.....

So what's the link...

Plane crash?
Avalanche?
Moors murders?
The shooting?
Annie Kenney and the suffragettes?
Or a place he'd been before and had fond memories of?

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Bringing forward LB's excellent map of the aforementioned shenanigan hotspots:

I wouldn't say this is 'dead on balls accurate' but I think I've got the locations pretty close. If proximity to a specific location is key, then the avalanche is closest.

I haven't been able to find locations for another 2 plane crashes or memorial trees.

But he could have just gone to a random place, this could be meaningless.

B is Neil, A the Clarence, blue line is his likely route.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.5...m1!4b1!4m2!6m1!1s1ct_ZMAJ5VWVyCvc9tdzAvtCpGTs

 

[Ellmau]

http://saddind.co.uk/questions-still-unanswered-as-identity-of-saddleworth-moors-man-is-revealed/

Local paper has some more info:

It was the first the family knew. David had lived in Pakistan since 2006 after having retired in 2005.

“We know he travelled on October 6, 2006 to Lahore and since that time the majority of his time has been spent in Pakistan as a retired person.

“We have put together a lifestyle. We have learned a lot about him. We have learned a lot about his movement, we have learned a lot about his history.

“But we can’t go into any further detail until the coroners’ hearing is concluded on March 14.

“We may have an understanding of why he left Pakistan when he has but with regard to Dovestone and why that day, we can’t identify a reason at this stage.

“We are conducting other enquires with friends and acquaintances which we have identified. But at this time we are not able to say why Dovestone.


“We don’t believe there is a spouse or any children. I can’t go into detail of what family members we have identified.”

DC Kelly Bragg added: “We know he was a bit of a loner. We know he had friends but he liked his own company.”

DS Coleman continued: “He appeared to compartmentalise his life. We have identified family and friends but friends would not know other friends. He kept people separate.”

 

[Elainera]

I wonder why he went to Pakistan of all places, to retire? I find this very odd. Pakistan is not a peaceful country, and you need money to be able to live comfortably, especially when you're middle-aged. Did he have prior connections to the country? I hope we will hear more after March 14.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

I wonder why he went to Pakistan of all places, to retire? I find this very odd. Pakistan is not a peaceful country, and you need money to be able to live comfortably, especially when you're middle-aged. Did he have prior connections to the country? I hope we will hear more after March 14.

Me too, I don't think we'll hear much before then unless the family speak out.

 

[easynic150]

http://saddind.co.uk/questions-still-unanswered-as-identity-of-saddleworth-moors-man-is-revealed/

Local paper has some more info:

So he retired when he was 57


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[Al Ka]

http://saddind.co.uk/questions-still-unanswered-as-identity-of-saddleworth-moors-man-is-revealed/

Local paper has some more info:

“We may have an understanding of why he left Pakistan when he has

I am really curious about that fact. It must have been something major over there in his life (or back home) that triggered his trip to UK 2 days prior to his suicide.