GUILTY UK - Ellie Butler, 6, brutally murdered, Sutton, 28 Oct 2013 #2

[Gigi-G]

I missed the first hour this morning. When I got there prosecution stood up to start cross-exam, so I missed that little drama. But I got an update from another court watcher. Was told she cried crocodile tears, and within a minute was continuing as if nothing had happened Switches it on and off at will. She is acting. He was acting. There has been no genuine grief or emotion from either of them. zero.

Sorry it was BB who left the dock n came back after a few moments.. :/

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[Tortoise]

Their house layout - the front door leads to a hallway which has doors to the two girl's bedrooms and the bathroom. Stairs lead down to the living area, kitchen and her bedroom, and a downstairs loo.

Her version in the police interview -

- Decided she wouldn't be missed at work, so just decided to go home, and was anyway still feeling slightly unwell, having had the Friday before off sick.
- Spoke to BB a few times on her journey home in the cab about chilli for dinner, and nothing of any consequence.
- Told the cab driver that she was feeling a bit unwell.
- It was raining heavily so she was cowering under her umbrella as she entered the home.
- Thought she heard Ellie playing in her room, door closed to Ellie's room.
- As usually, she would sort herself out first before talking to anyone.
- Went straight to the bathroom because she was bleeding heavily, to clean herself.
- Next went straight down the stairs to her bedroom, where she took off her coat to hang it up and changed out of her pink and white work shirt into a black and white jumper. Kept her work trousers on.
- Came out of her bedroom and saw younger daughter (YD) downstairs and said shall we have some cake?
- Took out 4 plates and cut up the cake, putting a piece on each plate.
- Called Ellie to come down and have cake.
- YD started eating hers, she took a bite of her own, then she said to YD go and get Ellie down.
- She heard YD speaking to Ellie saying wake up, and she thought something didn't sound right about what she could hear YD saying
- She ran up and found Ellie lying on the floor, between both open wardrobe doors.
- She shouted what's going on, stop mucking about Ellie
- Went over to her, saw her eyes were rolled back in her head, she was floppy
- Tried to give her CPR
- Screamed so hard for BB to come up, lost her voice

What I can't work out from this is whether she then claims they called the ambulance, because she must have known that this scenario she'd described didn't take 1 hour. Was she really going to go to trial on that version?

 

[Gigi-G]

What was her momentary disappearance from the stand? Sorry I must have missed that post .

Sorry Jog it was BB that excused himself. Apologies

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[Gigi-G]

Constant theatrics again then!

Can I just say that JG clearly must be either of limited intelligence or suffer from some other psychological problem . Her strategy should have been so simple "I am so sorry , I was so down trodden and defeated I went along with it all. I was at fault for the hour or so after I got he call. I can't take it back and have lost everything. Even if I don't think he killed her I understand why this case has been brought He was violent but only to me I have had time to think but just so sorry". She would have got a lot of empathy from the jurors and ironically may not have damaged his case as much as she has done now! I do fear that the evidence re the broken scapula may not be strong enough and that appears to be the only incident crown rely on for child cruelty. Also the jury have a terrible task and will think long and hard before convicting of the most serious charge of murder so he could walk away again. Leaving her to face sentence for perverting. Do we think Bb will go and faithfully visit her in prison. I think not he will cut her loose and leave her to it!

I do seriously hope he doesn't walk free. His past convictions of violence which has undoubtedly continued. IMO I don't think that puppy would of been alive for much longer either. I may be wrong but he has a temper. Puppy's chew wee n poo. And he doesn't much relish his house husband job as is. I can just see him flipping out after the puppy has chewed his fone charger. Or games controller. N as for the deposits. Hmm. Snm.


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[Gigi-G]

They'd of had to of schematically clear as much as they could of any evidence. So time would have to be added in lieu for that. Can see it being a frenzied series of events. Him barking orders at her. While she might of even been hysterical. We don't know..

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[Gigi-G]

Question. It's a bit of a yucky icky one but...... here goes.
Does menstrual blood show up differently to arterial blood as in DNA.?

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[Tortoise]

Her new version.

1. Received text from BB saying 'answer'. Phoned him and he said 'come home NOW'. She asked why, he said 'I'll tell you when you get here' and hung up the phone.
2. Disputes that she called him back again almost immediately for 1min20secs, even though the phone records show she did. Says the police evidence is shifty and they have to prove it's not an error.
3. Left work instantly, despite not knowing of any urgent need why she should leave at once.
4. Found a cab to take her, disputes she told the driver her child was really ill. Says 'you don't tell the cab driver why you want a cab'. 'He made that up after hearing of Ellie's death on the news'.
5. Remembers speaking to BB again on the journey, when he asked 'are you nearly home yet'. Still didn't ask him why she had to go home, even though the call was 20 seconds. Disputes and/or doesn't remember any other calls with him in the cab.
6. Went in the house, and went straight to the bathroom to clean herself up, same 'bleeding' excuse as before.
7. Admits she made up the part about hearing Ellie in her room (2007 excuse).
8. Went downstairs. Didn't go anywhere near the kitchen or do anything with cake. Doesn't know why she would have mentioned cake to the police/ambulance crew, she was in shock when she said that, she can't remember it. She hadn't discussed cake with BB. 'That's his evidence, not mine, you'll have to ask him about the cake'. Realising it just doesn't make any sense, she adds that she 'may have seen cake on the kitchen table' after all. That's the 'best she can do to help the prosecutor understand, but he never will, this jury will understand he is being vile, time stood still, you don't remember things when you've experienced shock like she has, lost a child. Has the prosecutor ever lost a child in these circumstances and suffered shock?
9. Saw BB lying on the living room floor. Knew instantly that this was serious. He said 'I think Ellie's dead'.
10. Doesn't know why she didn't ask him 'have you called an ambulance', or suggest 'we need to call an ambulance' - 'that isn't the first thing that goes through your head when you're in that situation'. She had to get to Ellie to see for herself.
11. She went up and saw Ellie on the floor. Tried CPR.
12. Knew she was gone, her eyes were rolled back. BB beckoned her out of the room, softly said 'come here'.
13. Closed Ellie's door and BB had told YD to go play dress up in her room. Knew she wouldn't come out and go into Ellie's room.
14. No point in calling an ambulance because Ellie was gone, she knew it.
15. In shock she went downstairs again and changed her top, 'to make it look like she hadn't been at work, because they would blame BB, they knew they would after 2007, and look it's happened hasn't it. Just like they predicted. She was right to think she needed to lie to defend an innocent man'. Accepts the cctv shows she was wearing the blue 'cornflower' shirt that day. Didn't leave the pink and white shirt on the bed to make it look as if she had been wearing that one. She probably changed her mind about which shirt to wear when she was getting dressed in the morning. She dropped her cornflower blue shirt on the floor. Doesn't know why it's not in the police photos of her bedroom floor. But there are some areas of the floor not shown in the photo. It wasn't put in the washing machine.
16. BB took the dog out, and her bloodied towel and the rubbish. He needed to get some air.
17. In shock, 'she wasn't thinking or trying to set up a cover story, her body was reacting' she texted her boss to tell her she had gone home feeling unwell. This was at 2:10pm. Doesn't know what happened for the next half hour. Can't remember...shock...
18. Heard YD going into Ellie's room, even though they knew she wouldn't go in there, and then they suddenly knew they had to call the ambulance.

 

[Renee110]

She's looking really foolish. She has lied and accused everyone else of lying, except BB, about everything she did that day. Her 'I'm coming clean now' act is not working, and will not wash with the jury. Mark my words.

whew. (breathes sigh of relief)

 

[Sallyla]

I'm also new to the forum and have been reading this forum this thread with great interest. Lots of great reporting and information on here, so thanks very much to those who have contributed, particularly to those who have reported from court.

It's a horribly fascinating case, with an extra angle of interest for me because I'm fairly certain JG is a girl I was friendly with when we were both teenagers, so about 19 years ago. She's changed a lot physically but I'm fairly sure it's her. But I think it's probably best not to say more about that until after the verdict.

Re, her mental state. People have mentioned BPD before in this thread and I really think that is very, very likely. It involves very rapid intense feelings in relationships, tipping into obsession, but also a huge fear of real or imagined abandonment and frantic attempts to prevent the abandonment happening.

So falling in love very quickly and deeply with BB, becoming obsessed with him. But also getting pregnant very quickly, constant pregnancies to try and keep him, casting spells, saying prayers, covering up violence, covering up violence towards the children, wanting E back just to cement a family, prioritising the children above him, lying about having suspected cancer, made up illnesses, thinking a baby boy was needed - all these things indicate BPD. Plus the alcohol abuse, manipulation, impulsive behaviour, constant lying and detachment from reality.

IIRC though, as a personality disorder rather than a mental illness it's no defence. Only possibly a mitigation in sentencing. Because they don't actually prevent you knowing right from wrong, they just make you, sort of, not care.

I wouldn't be surprised for that diagnosis to be wheeled out if there is a guilty verdict. Anyway, suffice to say I am glad that it went poorly for her to say.

If she does go down I will recount some of my experiences with her. Does anybody know when the verdict is expected.

 

[Tortoise]

The blood on JG's shirt was on the right side collar.

She says there was no blood around Ellie, the ambulance staff confirmed that. She did mention orange coloured foam coming out of Ellie's nose, but no blood that could have got on her collar.

I'm not even sure they know whose blood it is on the shirt, it showed up with luminol testing, after it had been through a wash cycle. When the police went to the house that evening the washing machine was switched on, the cycle had finished and the inside of the glass door had condensed water on it.

 

[Tillymint]

After reading the accounts of JG's evidence, I don't believe a word she says. I think a lot of it is twisted and manipulated to support BB and cast dispersions on the police. I though he said the towel was bloody from her abortion? She says it's from a period? Either way her blood is found in the house. I think Tortoise is right, something happened that morning and the rest of the day was spent trying to come up with a new timeline. I wonder if she was ever checked for injuries after her arrest?

 

[Tortoise]

I'm also new to the forum and have been reading this forum this thread with great interest. Lots of great reporting and information on here, so thanks very much to those who have contributed, particularly to those who have reported from court.

It's a horribly fascinating case, with an extra angle of interest for me because I'm fairly certain JG is a girl I was friendly with when we were both teenagers, so about 19 years ago. She's changed a lot physically but I'm fairly sure it's her. But I think it's probably best not to say more about that until after the verdict.

Re, her mental state. People have mentioned BPD before in this thread and I really think that is very, very likely. It involves very rapid intense feelings in relationships, tipping into obsession, but also a huge fear of real or imagined abandonment and frantic attempts to prevent the abandonment happening.

So falling in love very quickly and deeply with BB, becoming obsessed with him. But also getting pregnant very quickly, constant pregnancies to try and keep him, casting spells, saying prayers, covering up violence, covering up violence towards the children, wanting E back just to cement a family, prioritising the children above him, lying about having suspected cancer, made up illnesses, thinking a baby boy was needed - all these things indicate BPD. Plus the alcohol abuse, manipulation, impulsive behaviour, constant lying and detachment from reality.

IIRC though, as a personality disorder rather than a mental illness it's no defence. Only possibly a mitigation in sentencing. Because they don't actually prevent you knowing right from wrong, they just make you, sort of, not care.

I wouldn't be surprised for that diagnosis to be wheeled out if there is a guilty verdict. Anyway, suffice to say I am glad that it went poorly for her to say.

If she does go down I will recount some of my experiences with her. Does anybody know when the verdict is expected.

Welcome!

Very interesting.

There is no court next week. So they're back on Mon 6th June. I'm guessing they will wrap up that week, depending on availability of this American doctor who is on a cruise.Apparently she won't be available until Weds 8th June, but there was some discussion today about getting her evidence in report form. Nothing definite has been decided, but judge isn't willing to give them too much leeway - BB shouted from the dock that it was important evidence.

So all in all I'm guessing it will be wrapped up by Friday 10th June, with closing speeches and judges summing up, or early the following week. Jury will then take all of 5 minutes I hope. But no, it's never a certainty, they could take a few days or more to deliberate.

 

[cottonweaver]

Constant theatrics again then!

Can I just say that JG clearly must be either of limited intelligence or suffer from some other psychological problem . Her strategy should have been so simple "I am so sorry , I was so down trodden and defeated I went along with it all. I was at fault for the hour or so after I got he call. I can't take it back and have lost everything. Even if I don't think he killed her I understand why this case has been brought He was violent but only to me I have had time to think but just so sorry". She would have got a lot of empathy from the jurors and ironically may not have damaged his case as much as she has done now! I do fear that the evidence re the broken scapula may not be strong enough and that appears to be the only incident crown rely on for child cruelty. Also the jury have a terrible task and will think long and hard before convicting of the most serious charge of murder so he could walk away again. Leaving her to face sentence for perverting. Do we think Bb will go and faithfully visit her in prison. I think not he will cut her loose and leave her to it!

BIB Agree totally and said similar in thread 1. She had ample time since Oct 2013 to say I have realised since I have been out of his control that maybe BB has harmed my daughter. Even for medical neglect/cruelty charge ( shoulder etc) she had a range of plausible options she could have worked for herself IF she had been willing to throw him under the bus.

But there's the rub. She is "sick" ( twisted ) and mentally ill so it wasn't ever going to happen - her abandoning him IMO.

I am fascinated that you think he might walk away from this and I know you mean it as you have mentioned it before. Him visiting her in jail?! It's great to have a range of viewpoints so what makes you think that? ( Maybe I am too partial having posted on here for a while?)

 

[Legally Bland]

Just caught up from this afternoon. Many thanks for everyone's posts.

It sounds like the momentum is firmly with the prosecution.

Today has cleared a few things up about the defence for me (it's still utter BS, mind).

 

[Tortoise]

Just so everyone is aware, she has pleaded guilty to perverting the course of justice. The charge she denies is cruelty for not treating Ellie's broken shoulder.

 

[cottonweaver]

After reading the accounts of JG's evidence, I don't believe a word she says. I think a lot of it is twisted and manipulated to support BB and cast dispersions on the police. I though he said the towel was bloody from her abortion? She says it's from a period? Either way her blood is found in the house. I think Tortoise is right, something happened that morning and the rest of the day was spent trying to come up with a new timeline. I wonder if she was ever checked for injuries after her arrest?

Flutterby picked up a point last week (IIRC) about her choosing to travel home by cab and queried the same here.
Now we all assumed , based on news reports that as Sutton TStation was out of action in the morning ( trees on line) that it made sense for her to get that taxi and blow £50 - a lot of cash and not necessarliy faster.
Anyway it's now been reported that the Pros cross-x ing her also has asked this question - why get a taxi? ( clearly Sutton was back in operation.)
I am wondering if this was a plan to avoid witnesses or CCTV or something. There is some rationale there, something to cover.

I do think sthg happened that morning but IDThink E was killed before JG left for work - it doesn't fit with the rest of the testimony IMO.

PS Flutterby hope your viva voce went well today at Univ.

 

[cottonweaver]

Just so everyone is aware, she has pleaded guilty to perverting the course of justice. The charge she denies is cruelty for not treating Ellie's broken shoulder.

confusion - ignore me

 

[Tortoise]

Question. It's a bit of a yucky icky one but...... here goes.
Does menstrual blood show up differently to arterial blood as in DNA.?

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They said they can tell from the blood drops it was either expirated blood from her airways, or drips from something being carried with her blood on it. Menstrual blood is a different composition to blood, so I'm sure they would have been able to tell if it was.

 

[cottonweaver]

Question. It's a bit of a yucky icky one but...... here goes.
Does menstrual blood show up differently to arterial blood as in DNA.?

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My previous reply hasn't appeared. Strange.
I think they have to show up differently in forensics Gigi - surely womb cells in that.
So yes forensics should have been able to differentiate an injury to JG ( eg. he knocked out her tooth IDK anything not visible to naked eye) compared to menstrual/ D& C etc etc.
Apols to the bloke son here - guys avert your eyes now !!! LOL

Edit - wrote this B4 seeing T's post above.

Seriously ladies , who would "clean up" with a bathroom towel? This is nasty-girl-in-Becky-Watts trial level squalor IMO. ( Thankfully I have forgotten that woman's name)

 

[Gigi-G]

Just caught up from this afternoon. Many thanks for everyone's posts.

It sounds like the momentum is firmly with the prosecution.

Today has cleared a few things up about the defence for me (it's still utter BS, mind).

Totally agree. Just one big sham from start to finish. She's even tripping up on her own story. Let alone anything she agreed with BB.


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