GUILTY UK - Ellie Butler, 6, brutally murdered, Sutton, 28 Oct 2013 #2

[Tortoise]

I didn't think the text refer to her dad as I would have thought he would have said "your dad". Only reason I say that is because he didn't get on with her dad and would not have thought he would have been calling him dad and also wouldn't have thought he would really care if she sulked in front of JG dad as he would probably be pleased about that as t would show she didn't miss grandad and didn't want to be around him. JMO

Could be taken the other way, Ellie showing she isn't happy by wetting herself and sulking. Her way of communicating something is wrong without the words.

Another thing to note - they are claiming all the references to urinating are about Ellie's sister, because they were still potty training her when she came to them. I'm not buying it. Because these are references to being "bad", and youngsters being toilet trained do have accidents, but that isn't what their complaints are referring to.

 

[Tortoise]

I agree Gigi. They didn't make the version very plausible as they left out the normal instinctual reaction.
They couldn't write the plausible version with emotion/grief/empathy ...presumably as they don't know what it is. ( Whether that's because they both suffer from complex personality disorders or they 're both just bad IDK - mix of the two.) Obviously I accept they were both shocked and fearful...... for the consequences.

I am very squeamish - I don't even watch hospital dramas etc so I have tried to look at it(her fear at seeing the body) from both sides - but death of your child is something else?
Anyway, the fact that she could do multiple rounds on CPR etc on her dead child shows she is no delicate flower.

Again apologies to those posters we know that have lost children , when discussing the more graphic aspects coming up...

When our old dog died overnight at home and we were waiting for the vet the next day ( 5 stone dog - sadly, couldn't bury in back garden) I do remember a strong smell as morning went on - but I don't think this is what she means when she describes "a smell" - any thoughts ?

She described the smell coming out of Ellie's mouth from her tummy, after breathing into Ellie's mouth.

 

[cottonweaver]

She described the smell coming out of Ellie's mouth from her tummy, after breathing into Ellie's mouth.

Ok- stomach contents smell. maybe she just means acrid odour of bile rather than what I am alluding to - start of decomp. odour. IDK how to put this delicately - it's imposs to do.

 

[cottonweaver]

I didn't think the text refer to her dad as I would have thought he would have said "your dad". Only reason I say that is because he didn't get on with her dad and would not have thought he would have been calling him dad and also wouldn't have thought he would really care if she sulked in front of JG dad as he would probably be pleased about that as t would show she didn't miss grandad and didn't want to be around him. JMO

Also to bolster your point( that it's BB's Dad) is the recent testimony that BB would not be in the presence of the gps. ( They are such liars so it's tough to know what is true but Maybe there is corrob in fact that BB was not present at the McDonalds meal of the 27th Oct.

On the urinating point. back in April when we had zero info except for JG's list, I mistakenly assumed BB was referring to bed-wetting but obviously this wasn't the case.
Anyway point is, this spontaneous urination ( not the overnight wetting ) is very common, sadly, for children who have been abused ...cause I looked it up.

 

[Supernovae]

What's the OP case by the way?

 

[cottonweaver]

What's the OP case by the way?

Sorry SuperN. OPistorius. ( This is only the 3rd case I have followed so my frame of ref is somewhat limited. )

 

[Tortoise]

RSBM

12. I would never accept or believe that my daughter was gone. I would be doing everything to bring her back.

13. Closed Ellie's door? No. You wouldn't close the door to the room your child was in. Never. I'd be in that room laying right there with her and holding her. Even if I knew she was dead I would be holding my child.

14. I would call an ambulance no matter what. I wouldn't be able to give up hope. I live out in the country, about 25 min from town. I'd be putting her in my car and speeding to the hospital.... after I called ambulance...meet them on the way. 25-30 min to my house and the same back....I'd be trying to cut the time. NO WAY I'd give up and quit trying. This woman is a monster. Bigger monster than BB in my opinion.

Yes, the prosecutor, Ben FitzGerald, really hammered this home yesterday. He was making sure the jury really got it. He asked JG to explain to this jury how a mother can do that, how a mother can walk away after discovering her daughter like that and close the door, and leave her, laying alone on the floor, to make plans to save themselves, not staying with her, holding her, being there. He made an even bigger deal of the CPR charade she carried out on Ellie's body - the way he described it was like an assault although he didn't use that word, but it evoked a truly disgusting picture - the way she had used her own daughter's dead body for her own gain, pumping away at her chest for about 5-10 minutes while on the phone to the dispatcher, all in an act, waiting for the ambulance to arrive.

And he was very derisive of the way she had a/ allowed Ellie's sister to be in the room and watch her doing this, and b/ that she had left her sister unattended to be able to go back into the room and try to wake up Ellie.

I'm afraid to say it but I think she had no feelings for Ellie. That poor child was like a Cinderella when you add up all they did, and their messages about her. Just there for her own ends - to have a relationship with BB.

 

[cottonweaver]

Lisa O Carroll from the Guardian posted her report of yesterday's events- not much in it TBH

“You and Mr Butler had been coordinating your defence from the very beginning,” Fitzgerald said.
“I don’t know how we could do that,” she said, arguing that Butler was on remand in prison following Ellie’s death.

After questioning by the judge, she agreed that Butler was not in custody until March 2014 and they had both been bailed to the same address.

and she doesn't give the full sequence for this dialogue - ok I get it, it's JG walking back out of the room

“How is it you were able to leave her? Bring yourself to leave her?” asked Fitzgerald.

“Bring myself? I knew she was gone, I couldn’t do anything for her, she was helpless,” she replied.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...d-of-cynical-piece-of-acting?CMP=share_btn_tw

 

[cottonweaver]

SuperN - if your'e still here - have you got that link again for jog?

About the chambers for both BB & JG. Jog wanted to know if their QCs were from the same chambers etc...

 

[cottonweaver]

Tortoise why was it Fitzgerald and not Brown crossing JG yesterday? I don't have the links as to which QC is on which team,who is junior etc.

Anyway I prefer Fitzgerald for dealing with JG - he's emphasising the stuff we have been saying for weeks now - pumping the dead body.....letting sis be a party etc.

 

[jog]

Yes, the prosecutor, Ben FitzGerald, really hammered this home yesterday. He was making sure the jury really got it. He asked JG to explain to this jury how a mother can do that, how a mother can walk away after discovering her daughter like that and close the door, and leave her, laying alone on the floor, to make plans to save themselves, not staying with her, holding her, being there. He made an even bigger deal of the CPR charade she carried out on Ellie's body - the way he described it was like an assault although he didn't use that word, but it evoked a truly disgusting picture - the way she had used her own daughter's dead body for her own gain, pumping away at her chest for about 5-10 minutes while on the phone to the dispatcher, all in an act, waiting for the ambulance to arrive.

And he was very derisive of the way she had a/ allowed Ellie's sister to be in the room and watch her doing this, and b/ that she had left her sister unattended to be able to go back into the room and try to wake up Ellie.

I'm afraid to say it but I think she had no feelings for Ellie. That poor child was like a Cinderella when you add up all they did, and their messages about her. Just there for her own ends - to have a relationship with BB.

Totally agree. BB said in evidence that as long ago as January that JG had rejected Ellie He didn't say both girls just Ellie. She didn't have a bond with her as from what I recall from 6 weeks old until her return she only was allowed to see her 6 times a year . This made it very easy for her to allow /partake in this terrible behaviour towards Ellie. She needed the girls returned home to keep BB as without that tie they were history . That was her sole concern throughout, to keep him and reassure him that he was her number one priority. It goes against the maternal instinct that every mother should and usually does have!

 

[Tortoise]

Tortoise why was it Fitzgerald and not Brown crossing JG yesterday? I don't have the links as to which QC is on which team,who is junior etc.

Anyway I prefer Fitzgerald for dealing with JG - he's emphasising the stuff we have been saying for weeks now - pumping the dead body.....letting sis be a party etc.

I think they have been working as a double act, Brown and FitzG, examining witnesses. They are both very good.

 

[Gigi-G]

I agree Gigi. They didn't make the version very plausible as they left out the normal instinctual reaction.
They couldn't write the plausible version with emotion/grief/empathy ...presumably as they don't know what it is. ( Whether that's because they both suffer from complex personality disorders or they 're both just bad IDK - mix of the two.) Obviously I accept they were both shocked and fearful...... for the consequences.

I am very squeamish - I don't even watch hospital dramas etc so I have tried to look at it(her fear at seeing the body) from both sides - but death of your child is something else?
Anyway, the fact that she could do multiple rounds on CPR etc on her dead child shows she is no delicate flower.

Again apologies to those posters we know that have lost children , when discussing the more graphic aspects coming up...

When our old dog died overnight at home and we were waiting for the vet the next day ( 5 stone dog - sadly, couldn't bury in back garden) I do remember a strong smell as morning went on - but I don't think this is what she means when she describes "a smell" - any thoughts ?

Apologies to anyone who is SQUEAMISH. or would rather not deal with the nastier sides of death. It is part of the investigation and Court Case.

Same here. It's that unmistakable smell after a few hours that I was edging onto. Perhaps it was that same 'unmistakable' smell/odour that we're on about. And if so. That would mean that Ellie had passed for a while at the least a few hours.
As decomposition begins in the gut.


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[Tortoise]

I don't think Peart cross-examined JG jog. As I say, I was an hour late but when I got there the court had just gone out on morning break and I was given to understand she was still giving EIC with Tetlow her QC, but when we returned FitzG stood up.

 

[Gigi-G]

Agreed. You must also remember her own diaries that are n front of her in black and white are also wrong according to her and she wrote it! Thank goodness for the diaries and texts because without them the jury would have no corroborating evidence as to what was really going on in that house.

Exactly. She seems to be back tracking on her own words. By saying they were exaggerated or attention seeking. Nevertheless they were written from the heart. What one was feeling at the time.
You don't write... "you kneed me in my *advertiser censored* and pussy" and say that meant kneel..... what the heck. It doesn't make sense in that context.
She's digging herself a hole in her own evidence.

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[cottonweaver]

Apologies to anyone who is SQUEAMISH. or would rather not deal with the nastier sides of death. It is part of the investigation and Court Case.

Same here. It's that unmistakable smell after a few hours that I was edging onto. Perhaps it was that same 'unmistakable' smell/odour that we're on about. And if so. That would mean that Ellie had passed for a while at the least a few hours.
As decomposition begins in the gut.


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Glad you're u'standing what I am alluding to . Time of death and our sep experiences of how fast that odour starts.
Still - to be more objective - we don't know what JG is specifically describing - it could be something & nothing.

( Am just swinging back and forth re " the second skull fracture happened 1-6 hours before death." )

 

[Gigi-G]

:laughing:



:scared:

Perhaps Mr Spielberg will buy the rights, give the money to charity. And turn it into a Movie.
"Close encounters of the Pouty kind"

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[cottonweaver]

SuperN - if your'e still here - have you got that link again for jog?

About the chambers for both BB & JG. Jog wanted to know if their QCs were from the same chambers etc...

Ignore that , I've googled it.


JOG

peart & Tetlow are from the same chambers @ garden court.

 

[Supernovae]

Both from Garden Court:

http://www.gardencourtchambers.co.uk/barrister/icah-peart-qc/

http://www.gardencourtchambers.co.uk/barrister/bernard-tetlow-qc/

 

[Gigi-G]

I think she will get a custodial sentence for perverting . If she had given evidence differently and really come clean then she may have got a suspended sentence but after that performance I really think she will be sent to prison which is why I commented that if he walks I bet he doesn't faithfully visit her like she has been doing to him all week.

For those who where there yesterday did BB s counsel put any ques to her ?

I don't see him walking away. The evidence is too damning. "They" worked as a pair. To try and give each other alibi's. Except it didn't work out as BB was in actual fact 'alone' at home with the children.
And I think the Jury will see it that way.
His violent past towards women. And men. Shows he has an anger issue. But his anger is aggrevated. Because it turns into blows.
No one likes a bully. Let alone a violent bully.

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