GUILTY UK - Helen Bailey, 51, Royston, 11 April 2016 #7

[Duchy]

The pathologist said that she was under the influence of zopiclone when she died,

Did he say she was under the influence at the time of death? I thought it might just be in her system. OK apologies.

 

[icemaiden65]

The pathologist said that she was under the influence of zopiclone when she died, or do you mean you think she'd taken it but it hadn't taken effect yet?

Presumably he gave it her at breakfast time both on the 8th and the 11th so if we looked at when her online activity stopped and the drug took effect on the 8th it might give us an idea of when he expected the drug to take effect on the 11th and then we can see if it the expected time would have fitted in with his 11.30 appointment.

I think he did at least two practice runs -

Originally Posted by Tortoise
Just to add the times that Helen's phone was inactive that week

Monday 4th 12:31pm - 4:25pm
Friday 8th 10:55am - 2:59pm (text and call received during that time not responded to)

My response:

Both periods are as near as d*mmit to four hours. Coincidence? Or was Helen pole axed by the Zopicline?

 

[cottonweaver]

Prosecutor Stuart Trimmer asked: "How is it that John Sinfield and Snoopy are somehow related to a criminal network in Bedford Prison?"

Mr Stewart replied: "Snoopy has nothing to do with this, it was Joe, Nick and someone else."

Nice one, Mr Trimmer.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-e...rison&&ns_fee=0#post_58a1e920e4b080b4e83a8934

 

[Duchy]

She must have taken it hidden in her breakfast vitamins then. I'm just not entirely convinced they would work after a nights sleep though. Zopiclone calms the mind, relaxes, and helps you go to sleep, unless she took a very large dose.....

 

[DollyDiamond]

I can't remember if it was on here or somewhere else I read it, very recently, that zopiclone usually takes an hour to hour and a half to kick in.

I guess everyone reacts slightly differently to a drug but I'd say that's way out. Zopiclone takes no more than 20 mins to knock me out, I think that's pretty standard for a sleeping tablet?

Thought occurred to me - is it possible Helen had talked to IS about selling the mansion and that had spurred him into action on Monday 11th April? I feel sure he loved the big swanky house that allowed him to play Lord of the manor in the area he grew up in. Helen ultimately had control of it as major shareholder. Could she have said to him - your sons are all grown up and I want to move back to London and start our married life there? Could this explain why she made that appeal for a recommendation for a local conveyancer in early April?

 

[Duchy]

Nice one, Mr Trimmer.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-e...rison&&ns_fee=0#post_58a1e920e4b080b4e83a8934

Ha ha. It does sound truly ridiculous.

 

[Cherwell]

Could this explain why she made that appeal for a recommendation for a local conveyancer in early April?

That was to proceed with the sale of the flat in Newcastle (or wherever it was). There's no need for the conveyancer to be near the property, that would just be for her own convenience, going in to sign papers etc.

 

[Duchy]

I guess everyone reacts slightly differently to a drug but I'd say that's way out. Zopiclone takes no more than 20 mins to knock me out, I think that's pretty standard for a sleeping tablet?

It can work like that if the person is in bed and aiming to go to sleep, yes. But if you have had a nights sleep already and are at your computer with your mind active? When I give zopiclone to my patients I would say sometimes it works and sometimes it has no effect whatsoever. Re Helen waking after 4 hours or so....zopiclone has a half life of around 4/5 hours or so but it is still half active in the system if you wake up. Eg. 7.5mg zop. at 7 o'clock would reduce to half that by 11/12 o'clock. That hasn't got much to do with the price of fish but just thought I'd throw that in.

 

[cottonweaver]

In his previous days testimony he conveniently tied-in being slipped the illicit phone with the start of that spate of prison riots in England.

“Just before the riots in Bedford prison, there was a massive riot it made the news.“It was just before that, someone handed me a phone and said: ‘This is for you’.“It was a little tiny phone. I took a call and I said: ‘Hello’

I didn't know Bedford had also had riots.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/nov/06/fire-service-called-to-riot-at-bedford-prison

....a riot at Bedford Prison which reportedly saw up to 200 inmates go on the rampage.

The disturbance was “successfully resolved” late on Sunday night after riot officers spent more than six hours trying to bring the disorder under control.

Scores of prisoners flooded the jail’s gangways in chaotic scenes after the disturbance broke out shortly after 5pm. There were no injuries to prison staff but two inmates were treated for injuries that were not thought to be serious. Steve Gillan, general secretary of the Prison Officers Association (POA) said some guards were forced to retreat to a “safe place” while large numbers of prisoners ran amok.

Sources told the Press Association the riot spread over more than one wing inside the prison, and footage supposedly from inside the facility – though unverified – posted online revealed chaotic scenes with scores of prisoners shouting and bellowing in walkways and gangways. At around 11pm, about half an hour before the riot was brought under control, there were reports of loud bangs or explosions coming from inside the prison.

another insider perspective on Bedford in Nov 2016

"Prisoners are locked up for 23 hours a day and just get half an hour to walk around a synthetic football pitch and then it's back to the cells. "Conditions in that jail are terrible. There is no space and not enough staff.

"It was only a matter of time before this happened. Everyone know something like this was going to take place.

"Weekends are especially bad in the prison because there isn't the staff on duty. There is no proper food available and you end up with a filled roll and a packet of crisps if you are lucky."

Former inmate Tyler Johnston, 21, said prisoners took batons, raided safes containing phones and drugs, and locked other prisoners inside cells during the riot.
Speaking outside the jail, he said: "The prisoners were running it last night, not the screws. When I was inside I had to break up fights 'cause there wasn't enough staff.
"Bedford Prison is falling apart, there's cockroaches everywhere, the floors peeling off ... it's an absolute state. When you put people under that much strain they're going to bite.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/bedford-prison-riot-inmates-police-9211416

Anyway I guess he will be transferred soon.
[video=youtube;KCtPt9G2yAg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCtPt9G2yAg[/video]

 

[Duchy]

Imagine being an elderly prisoner amongst that lot.

 

[DollyDiamond]

It can work like that if the person is in bed and aiming to go to sleep, yes. But if you have had a nights sleep already and are at your computer with your mind active? When I give zopiclone to my patients I would say sometimes it works and sometimes it has no effect whatsoever. Re Helen waking after 4 hours or so....zopiclone has a half life of around 4/5 hours or so but it is still half active in the system if you wake up. Eg. 7.5mg zop. at 7 o'clock would reduce to half that by 11/12 o'clock. That hasn't got much to do with the price of fish but just thought I'd throw that in.

That's really interesting. Suggests he'll have likely been giving her high doses to be sure of knocking her out.

 

[ColourPurple]

I think he did at least two practice runs -

Originally Posted by Tortoise
Just to add the times that Helen's phone was inactive that week

Monday 4th 12:31pm - 4:25pm
Friday 8th 10:55am - 2:59pm (text and call received during that time not responded to)

My response:

Both periods are as near as d*mmit to four hours. Coincidence? Or was Helen pole axed by the Zopicline?

Wow so if he expected the timings to be the same as his Friday trial then she'd be asleep by 10.55. so he may well have thought he could do what he had to do before his 11.30 appointment. But if the drugs took a little while longer to work then he was really pushed for time and would have had to rearrange the appointment, which he did

 

[Duchy]

That's really interesting. Suggests he'll have likely been giving her high doses to be sure of knocking her out.

Yes. I very much doubt if she would fall asleep on a standard 3.75mg or 7.5mg dose after a nights sleep if she wasn't laying down with the intention of falling asleep. It would most likely just have a
relaxing effect and make her feel a bit drowsy. I can't think that she would just crash out at the computer. She might go and have a lie down however, and then fall asleep. He might smother her then.

 

[snoopydog]

Regarding the view that IS may have been prompted to kill Helen on the Monday by a specific trigger, I thought it interesting that Trimmer mentioned the sleeping pills in this context today. Sorry I can't find the direct quote but he said words to the effect that Helen was increasingly complaining of tiredness and was on the verge of seeing a doctor - at which point a blood test would likely be done and his drugging would be exposed.

Could this looming fear of Helen getting a blood test have hastened the murder? It would have blown him and his murder plan out the water of she had - it could have been quite a powerful prompt for him to take action.

Yeah maybe she planned to arrange a docs appointment or she was going to get an emergency appointment or something. Mind you I doubt they'd do any kind of drugs test while checking for tiredness.... maybe he was just worried in case they did


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[BatFace]

It can work like that if the person is in bed and aiming to go to sleep, yes. But if you have had a nights sleep already and are at your computer with your mind active? When I give zopiclone to my patients I would say sometimes it works and sometimes it has no effect whatsoever. Re Helen waking after 4 hours or so....zopiclone has a half life of around 4/5 hours or so but it is still half active in the system if you wake up. Eg. 7.5mg zop. at 7 o'clock would reduce to half that by 11/12 o'clock. That hasn't got much to do with the price of fish but just thought I'd throw that in.

Yes, when I've had Zoplicone in hospital, the nurse warned me not to start reading a book or something- you had to be settled down and ready to sleep for it to have the full effect. I don't think that it anything like as powerful as many readers are assuming.

Likewise, I really do not believe that Diane's death can be attributed to Zoplicone withdrawal: it would be a rubbish way of dong away with somebody, given that epileptic seizures are a RARE side-effect of withdrawal, and entirely unpredictable. You might as well try to kill your partner by feeding them bacon every day and hoping they have a heart attack. IF he killed his wife, it was probably with the same headlock method.

 

[snoopydog]

Well I just had a drama! Woke up to hear two old bams trying to get into my front door and called 999. Can confirm I did not say hello!


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[janeh]

Well I just had a drama! Woke up to hear two old bams trying to get into my front door and called 999. Can confirm I did not say hello!


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Hope you are okay.

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[cottonweaver]

@BatFace - a surprise glass of champers presented by IS, to celebrate X/Y/Z ? he can fake romance when he needs to.

 

[cottonweaver]

Well I just had a drama! Woke up to hear two old bams trying to get into my front door and called 999. Can confirm I did not say hello!


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Crikey! Are bams drunks?

 

[snoopydog]

Crikey! Are bams drunks?

Yes. It was an old couple who were drunk and I was shouting through the door that they were at the wrong door but the woman was mental and shouting and trying to get in so I shouted I was calling the police then called them. I'm ok but it was a bit surreal. First time I've called 999. Definitely no hello or apologies and kept telling her to hurry up and send the police! Very different to IS call to 101 that's for sure!


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