GUILTY UK - Joanna Yeates, 25, Clifton, Bristol, 17 Dec 2010 #11

[bees]

I'm confused now.

I just watched that clip of the family going to the exact spot and they appear to walk over the brow of the hill beyond the quarry entrance and then look left. So it could be that spot used in the reconstruction.

Just looked on google street view (from where the above video was shot) and that shows you can't see the verge beyond the quarry because it's over the brow. That corresponds with the video clip where the family go over the hill and you can only see the upper part of them. I'm convinced now that the actual spot is where the re-construction shows it.

I imagine that in the programme, they'd have shown the long shot which placed it in that part of Longwood Lane and then the close up with the snow.

 

[otto]

As I said - you film the whole of the road (establishing shots) as it normally looks, then close in on the spot in question. Then you switch to the close-up with snow effect. Sorry if I wasn't clear.





I think there is, Otto, just to put the scene in context, so people know whereabouts along the road it was. But you don't want snow for this part.

I suppose some people will expect that a crime scene should look like a movie, but re-enactments are not a movie because several factors are unknown ... like what happened at her flat, and what happened near the quarry. It will not serve police objections to offer conjecture ... so it will be only the facts.

 

[Patticake]

It is, but I disagree with Patticake's opinion that, after laying flowers, the family "walk back to the actual site". That might imply the quarry entrance, but in fact they actually walk up the lane, to the place where more floral tributes were placed later.

I think what happened was that they were asked to lay their flowers where the cars were parked, because the actual site (further up the lane) was still a crime scene. One LE had finished their work, the flowers were moved up to the actual site.

A very minor quibble ... it was not my opinion that the family walked back to the original site. That was how it was referenced in contemporaneous news accounts of the parents visiting the scene.

However, the fact that the news media referred it in that fashion is not necessarily proof of it's accuracy.

.

 

[Cherwell]

I suppose some people will expect that a crime scene should look like a movie, but re-enactments are not a movie because several factors are unknown ... like what happened at her flat, and what happened near the quarry. It will not serve police objections to offer conjecture ... so it will be only the facts.

No, I didn't imagine they would show anything beyond the location and context. A pity that it won't be shown, that would at least settle the question one way or another.

 

[Phillb]

No, I didn't imagine they would show anything beyond the location and context. A pity that it won't be shown, that would at least settle the question one way or another.

At some point in time Churwell, It's going to have to accepted, that being able to film that very small snow area, in any true context to where it is on the lane is impossible. The only shot you can muster is a head on shot of those snow covered trees agreed?

It therefore has to be admitted, that a head on shot of a grass verge, with trees behind, cannot possibly show any viewer the true location where the body was found. Can anyone recognise a location with absolutely no focal point for recognition? No they can't.

I'm not sure how long it will take for the above points to be agreed on, but evetually the inevitable has to happen. That conclusion has to be made.

Having agreed to those comments above, It then has to be admitted that attention for total accuracy for the reconstruction is a total waste of time. The fact that no one can relate where it is proves it was a pointless excercise. In that circumstance, they could have used any stretch of verge along that lane, no one would be any the wiser.

Which brings us to the initial debate, which was taking the reconstructed snow area as total, and irrefutable prove that it is the exact spot. Or quite possibly as stated earlier, it could be quite possible it's for practical film shooting purposes only.

*It's also quite possible that's only a test area to check the snow machines are working*

The invetible has to be concluded at some point.
It can't be taken for granted it is the exact spot, just on the strength of this film shoot photograph alone!

 

[Patticake]

Rupert Evelyn is a journalist with ITN Wales

http://twitter.com/#!/skybod/status/31675486484566016

Jo Yeates murder. VT's brother will be on Dutch TV tonight talking about Vincent and the feelings amongst his family.

.

 

[whiterum]

I agree, but the evidence hasn't been disclosed or tested. Somebody else in the thread mentioned that the only person to say anything bad about VT was probably the "sobbing girl". But David Carrington-Jones was wrongly convicted of rape after accusations by his step-daughter, who later admitted that she made up the story because she didn't like him (and the jury were never told of her history of accusing many others she didn't like of rape). She merely received a caution for wasting police time, he served more than 6 years in jail for a crime he didn't commit (and parole was refused because he wouldn't admit his guilt).

I'm not saying that's the case here, but we really mustn't assume that being charged means that VT must have something to hide. He could have been set up, and the police do make mistakes, as do the courts: Barry George, Colin Stagg, Winston Sillcott, the Cardiff Three, and many others.

Of course, but I do assume that the police have a lot more evidence than that of the sobbing girl. Apparently they had been watching him for some time before that call. Whatever she said must have been something else significant to add to what they already had on him. I know there are innocent peoplle who have been charged and later exonerated. Presently what we have to consider here is the fact that the police have charged him with murder. Things may materialize up the line but they will be discussed as well, if and when they arise. This is why we have speculation and different scenarios put forward here as to innocence, guilt or whatever. This is really what my answer to the post was about.

 

[Trio]

Hi all.
Crimewatch is an appeal Programme to People out there to come forward if they have any information, it surly it must make a difference where Jo was found in the Lane, if someone saw something in that Area or local People passing that Area in that Week, Crimewatch is based on fact's, why would they choose an Area that was no where near where JY was found, I do think that the snow scene is that spot, I might be wrong though.

Its like the Crimewatch Programme showing Jo coming out of Argos, and it was really Tesco's that she had been in,reference the snow scene created.

So may question's and not a lot of answer's to this sad Case, until the Trail we will not know what evidence the LE has on VT, then the puzzle with all the different pieces missing will form a picture.

 

[Mellen]

At some point in time Churwell, It's going to have to accepted, that being able to film that very small snow area, in any true context to where it is on the lane is impossible. The only shot you can muster is a head on shot of those snow covered trees agreed?

It therefore has to be admitted, that a head on shot of a grass verge, with trees behind, cannot possibly show any viewer the true location where the body was found. Can anyone recognise a location with absolutely no focal point for recognition? No they can't.

But couldn't they do something similar to what Otto did and film the lane in it's current state, showing views up and down it so that the viewer understands where the exact location is, and then show the exact spot snow covered so you see what it looked like when the crime was committed? That seems possible to me.

One question I have is how high is the fence? If VT is 6ft. 4in. tall, wouldn't it be relatively easy for him to get JY's body over the fence? Much easier than for someone of an average height I would think.

 

[Cherwell]

At some point in time Churwell, It's going to have to accepted, that being able to film that very small snow area, in any true context to where it is on the lane is impossible. The only shot you can muster is a head on shot of those snow covered trees agreed?

It therefore has to be admitted, that a head on shot of a grass verge, with trees behind, cannot possibly show any viewer the true location where the body was found. Can anyone recognise a location with absolutely no focal point for recognition? No they can't.

I'm not sure how long it will take for the above points to be agreed on, but evetually the inevitable has to happen. That conclusion has to be made.

Having agreed to those comments above, It then has to be admitted that attention for total accuracy for the reconstruction is a total waste of time. The fact that no one can relate where it is proves it was a pointless excercise. In that circumstance, they could have used any stretch of verge along that lane, no one would be any the wiser.

I certainly don't agree at all. Have you never seen a panning shot that then zooms in on one feature? And a scene fade from (say) summer into winter? I'm sorry you have so much difficulty understanding what I have tried to describe, it really is quite basic stuff. I have obviously expressed it poorly.

Which brings us to the initial debate, which was taking the reconstructed snow area as total, and irrefutable prove that it is the exact spot. Or quite possibly as stated earlier, it could be quite possible it's for practical film shooting purposes only.

*It's also quite possible that's only a test area to check the snow machines are working*

The invetible has to be concluded at some point.
It can't be taken for granted it is the exact spot, just on the strength of this film shoot photograph alone!

As I showed earlier, it is only one of the things that persuaded me.

 

[whitedove]

V/T was remanded in custody for a week, he is to appear next at Bristol Crown Court on Monday, it will be interesting to see what happens.

He did'nt ask for bail last time, I wonder if he knew he would'nt get bail, or maybe he did'nt have his family to go home to, or maybe it would not be safe for him to be out, he did say he felt safe in jail.

Mr Cook representing V/T said he would not be applying for bail today on behalf of his client, and Mrs Reddrop asked for a remand into custody and outlined the reasons.

We will have to wait and see what tomorrow brings.

 

[Robin Hood]

V/T was remanded in custody for a week, he is to appear next at Bristol Crown Court on Monday, it will be interesting to see what happens.

He did'nt ask for bail last time, I wonder if he knew he would'nt get bail, or maybe he did'nt have his family to go home to, or maybe it would not be safe for him to be out, he did say he felt safe in jail.

Mr Cook representing V/T said he would not be applying for bail today on behalf of his client, and Mrs Reddrop asked for a remand into custody and outlined the reasons.

We will have to wait and see what tomorrow brings.

I think the 29th of April date to enter a plea will be interesting too. By then he'll know the results of any forensics that are not yet back and he will then have a clearer idea what's against him. JMO

 

[veggiefan]

I think the 29th of April date to enter a plea will be interesting too. By then he'll know the results of any forensics that are not yet back and he will then have a clearer idea what's against him. JMO

Although there is no obligation on him to enter a plea tomorrow, the preliminary hearing is often the occasion when the accused is advised that a guilty plea may result in a shorter sentence.

I think this is one of the most reprehensible aspects of the English judicial system.

I doubt that we will hear much new detail tomorrow. While preliminary hearings involve discussion of the key facts and legal arguments that are to be used by the prosecution, such hearings are normally heard by the judge in chambers (which often involves the use of a courtroom to which the public are not admitted). Bristol Crown Court have allocated court 9, which I think is small.

Of course, one of the things that can happen at this stage is that the judge may rule that there is no case to answer on the basis of the arguments presented, in which case everyone is back to square one. But that is rare.

Whatever happens, I hope that the judicial process unfolds in a fair and equitable manner for all concerned.

 

[angel10510]

Enzender's and Otto's photos on the previous page give some idea of how a body could have lain on the verge for days without discovery. The landscape is uneven and snow cover could make shapes indistinct. Even regular passersby might mistake it for something else while walking past.

 

[bees]

What is SO bizarre is the deposition site.

I can imagine someone choosing to pull into the lay-by in order to take the body into the woods but just to leave it on the verge is beyond reason. I can only surmise that they intended to place it somewhere else but became disturbed by passing cars and decided to drive off so their car wouldn't be noticed.

Maybe that car driving slowly and repeatedly up and down the lane on the morning of the 18th was the killer returning, looking for an opportunity to move it and not being able to due to other people around. Once it had snowed again, they might have been deterred by the chance of leaving tyre tracks.

 

[veggiefan]

What is SO bizarre is the deposition site.

I can imagine someone choosing to pull into the lay-by in order to take the body into the woods but just to leave it on the verge is beyond reason. I can only surmise that they intended to place it somewhere else but became disturbed by passing cars and decided to drive off so their car wouldn't be noticed.

As I mentioned earlier, I think the intention may have been to tip it over the wall into the cutting below the road, where it may not have been discovered until early January, but it proved impossible.

Maybe that car driving slowly and repeatedly up and down the lane on the morning of the 18th was the killer returning, looking for an opportunity to move it and not being able to due to other people around.

Or perhaps to check that it had been sufficiently well covered by the snow that morning?

 

[Redgoblin]

What is SO bizarre is the deposition site.

I can imagine someone choosing to pull into the lay-by in order to take the body into the woods but just to leave it on the verge is beyond reason. I can only surmise that they intended to place it somewhere else but became disturbed by passing cars and decided to drive off so their car wouldn't be noticed.

Maybe that car driving slowly and repeatedly up and down the lane on the morning of the 18th was the killer returning, looking for an opportunity to move it and not being able to due to other people around. Once it had snowed again, they might have been deterred by the chance of leaving tyre tracks.

Perhaps they were looking for a place to dump the body in the quarry, but for some reason decided not to, perhaps it was lit up and the thought of being captured on CCTV made them dump the body there and then.

 

[enzeder]

What is SO bizarre is the deposition site.

I can imagine someone choosing to pull into the lay-by in order to take the body into the woods but just to leave it on the verge is beyond reason. I can only surmise that they intended to place it somewhere else but became disturbed by passing cars and decided to drive off so their car wouldn't be noticed.

Maybe that car driving slowly and repeatedly up and down the lane on the morning of the 18th was the killer returning, looking for an opportunity to move it and not being able to due to other people around. Once it had snowed again, they might have been deterred by the chance of leaving tyre tracks.

BBM

I think that it's very possible that they may have been looking for a more suitable spot but were disturbed by passing cars because according to the below quoted articles, "On the night Miss Yeates went missing it was the Captain's Dinner at Long Ashton Golf Club, attended by about 80 men and women" and "Around 30 of the guests are believed to have driven down the lane between 11pm and midnight before heavy snow fell in the early hours."

RIDDLE OF U-TURN CAR

Police are trying to trace the owner of a light-coloured car seen on the night Jo disappeared in the remote area where her body was dumped.

Two members of Long Ashton Golf Club in Failand were about to drive home when they saw the car pull into the entrance at 11.20pm on December 17.

The driver noticed the key-code operated barriers and hastily did a U-turn. It then sped off towards Longwood Lane.

The witnesses reported the incident after Miss Yeates’s body was found on a grass verge beside the lane on Christmas Day. Around 30 of the guests are believed to have driven down the lane between 11pm and midnight before heavy snow fell in the early hours.

Most of them told police that they had their lights on full beam but did not see a body on the verge.

One member said: ‘Failand is such a remote area and the way the car was being driven stuck in the witnesses’ mind.’

Forensic officers tested the snow and ground in Longwood Lane for tyre tracks after Miss Yeates’s body was found.

DCI Phil Jones said earlier this week that he believed the body had been there ‘several days’ and was covered in snow.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...murder-Chris-Jefferies-freed-bail-2-days.html

On the night Miss Yeates went missing it was the Captain's Dinner at Long Ashton Golf Club, attended by about 80 men and women.

Two members were about to drive home when they saw a light-coloured 4x4 car pull into the entrance at about 11.20pm.

Caught on CCTV, the driver appeared to notice the key-code operated barriers and hastily did a U-turn before speeding off in the direction of Longwood Lane, which is only about 100 yards away. Several weeks on and the murder mystery is still the talk of the club.

http://www.thisisbristol.co.uk/news...discovery/article-3081225-detail/article.html

 

[Phillb]

I certainly don't agree at all. Have you never seen a panning shot that then zooms in on one feature? And a scene fade from (say) summer into winter? I'm sorry you have so much difficulty understanding what I have tried to describe, it really is quite basic stuff. I have obviously expressed it poorly.



As I showed earlier, it is only one of the things that persuaded me.

<modsnip>

You stated one of your reasons above was because the family stood in silence at the exact same spot. At no point on this video do they go to that crimewatch spot, they don't even look in the direction of the Crimewatch snow scene.
http://www.itnsource.com/shotlist//ITN/2010/12/27/R27121002/?s=Greg+Reardon
Do they go to that Crimewatch spot there? Can you agree they don't?
They stand and look on the opposite side of the road don't they?

And how come Summer comes into anything. Why film Summer shots? It is Winter time isn't it?

Yes your are quite right, I do have great difficuilty understanding your explanation for clarity of location using very close up Winter shots, and then long distance ''Summer'' shots? :waitasec:

 

[enzeder]

Perhaps they were looking for a place to dump the body in the quarry, but for some reason decided not to, perhaps it was lit up and the thought of being captured on CCTV made them dump the body there and then.

I agree with you and according to the article which I quoted above the vehicle that "hastily did a U-turn" (at the Long Ashton Golf Club) was "Caught on CCTV". (see article at below link)

http://www.thisisbristol.co.uk/news...discovery/article-3081225-detail/article.html