GUILTY UK - Joanna Yeates, 25, Clifton, Bristol, 17 Dec 2010 #6

[teabreid]

It'll be very interesting to see what the police are prepared to imagine or describe on Crimewatch.

For instance, will the recon have the victim returning to her flat, key in the door and all that?

Will it follow her inside and give a narrative of the pizza and the cider? Or just show the box and the bottle again?

Will it show a ligature as a murder weapon?

Will it give a view of the vehicle the body is presumed to have been moved in and what route it is presumed to have taken? If the victim was killed in the flat, then you'd expect the cops to ask 'did you see anyone enter this flat before the time the victim arrived?' Or 'did you see anyone acting suspiciously in the vicinity of the flat before or after the time she arrived?'

You'd also expect the removal of the body - time and manner - to be described as far as possible, since it would be one of only two public moments when the body and killer were visible together.

Hard to see what they'd expect to gain from just saying the body was moved to where it was dumped and if anyone saw that happen please do get in touch, won't you.

There will be no point just showing a blonde girl walking through the streets going to Tesco. They've already played that one out with the CCTV images weeks ago.

Unless the Crimewatch recon is more than just another example of the cops being coy - not saying how they think it occurred for some secret, mysterious reason - it'll be a waste of time and will only devalue the programme for other cases.

What I would most like to hear is the 999 call that started everything off. I believe that in itself would throw a lot of light on this case. Given the history of this case, I'm not optimistic.

 

[Deckard]

knew BF was away, made advances and strangled her in car. The stuff was placed back in the flat (as I've always said)

He took her boots off her feet. He let himself into her flat with her key. Put the key back in her bag. Opened one of the bottles of cider. Flushed some of the cider down the sink or toilet to get rid of it. Made his exit with her body in his car after having meticulously set the scene but forgetting the Tesco pizza which had fallen to the floor of his car.

I don't buy it.

He has done the deed by this stage. Why put himself at extra risk by placing himself in Jo's flat at all ?

 

[Robin Hood]

He took her boots off her feet. He let himself into her flat with her key. Put the key back in her bag. Opened one of the bottles of cider. Flushed some of the cider down the sink or toilet to get rid of it. Made his exit with her body in his car after having meticulously set the scene but forgetting the Tesco pizza which had fallen to the floor of his car.

I don't buy it.

Well, if they knew the BF was away they certainly would have time. Strangulation in car 8.50pm, car drives away and body is re located. Pizza gets pulled out with body, falls in mud/dirt so can't be put into flat. The body has the boots removed using the sock and the items are then taken to flat and staged at about 9.15pm. Resident then goes into own flat.

 

[Deckard]

If CJ did do it why would he not wait ten minutes for her to walk into her own flat. No need for staging, she takes off her own boots, drinks cider etc.

Surely it would be riskier to kill her in a car in a location between Tesco and 44 Canynge Road than within the flat itself?

 

[otto]

If CJ did do it why would he not wait ten minutes for her to walk into her own flat. No need for staging, she takes off her own boots, drinks cider etc.

Surely it would be riskier to kill her in a car in a location between Tesco and 44 Canynge Road than within the flat itself?

Given that her things were found in the flat, I'm confused about theories about her being abducted away from home, and then someone taking the huge risk of finding her flat, and placing some of her things in the flat. I don't see that as something that anyone would do.

Looking at the fact that her things are at home, I think that is most likely where she was attacked. She could have put the pizza wrappers in the garbage and the trash was taken away in the days before the police figured out that the wrapping was not in the flat. We've heard that police are looking for the wrapper, not necessarily the pizza.

 

[Rossetti]

..... Resident then goes into own flat.

I suppose if it was a neighbour (and let's not forget there are other houses nearby), and traces of Jo were found in the car - it would be very difficult, if not impossible, to prove that said neighbour hadn't given her a lift at some other time.

 

[Nausicaa]

I have been tormented by the central paradox of this murder and I have now devised a (partially) new hypothesis to attempt to explain it. Here goes.

Quite a few contributors seem convinced that the killer decided to remove the body in order to distract attention from the flat because he is someone closely associated with the flat or its immediate vicinity.
Obvious as this seems at first sight, this explanation suffers from an enormous difficulty when the killer carefully leaves in the flat his victim’s personal effects including keys, mobile phone, coat, bag and footwear. He offers us in due course a corpse which even lacks one sock. He knows we shall conclude that Joanna did not voluntarily leave her flat without these things and therefore probably was killed in the flat, in which case he might as well have left the body there too.
Two hypotheses have been advanced to explain this paradox :
1. Joanna before getting home, got into a car with someone else and was killed in it. The killer then took her effects to the flat to draw attention to the flat and thus away from the place where she really died. I don’t like this unless there were two people in the car or one very strong person and even then the advantages to the killer of taking the personal effects back to the flat seem hardly sufficient to outweigh the danger of being seen there.
2. While removing the body, the killer accidentally let the flat door slam shut and, not having other keys than those in Joanna’s bag inside, could not get back in to complete his original plan to remove the effects as well. Rossetti will allow me to be sceptical of this idea, which does not square with the picture I have formed of the killer – definitely not a man who wrecks his plans by accidentally slamming doors.

My suggestion is that the killer left Joanna’s personal effects in the flat in order to produce the one and only effect that could have : to draw attention very firmly towards the flat, and away from anywhere else.

Why then did he not leave the body there too ? I suggest because (a) Joanna did not die in the flat and the killer doesn’t like lugging corpses around more than necessary, (b) he didn’t want to run the risk of its being discovered too soon.
In this hypothesis, the killer wants the police to think that Jo was killed at home, but he also wants to leave as vague as possible the time and if possible the date when that occurred.
The story is roughly this. After Joanna arrives home on the Friday night, she is invited (for instance by a close neighbour) to have a glass of Christmas sherry with him. She accepts and goes to his place, wearing shoes on her feet and taking her bag, but leaving in the flat her pizza which she was getting ready to eat.
The neighbour knows Joanna and knows that Greg is away for the weekend. He does not know that Joanna has been recorded this evening on CCTV and he does not know that she has a till receipt in her handbag. Neither does he know that she made a call and sent a text after leaving her office party.
I imagine him attacking and strangling Jo, in his own home, a little after 9 p.m. on the Friday evening. Once the deed is done, as a close neighbour, and having obviously no genuine alibi for the time when he is committing the murder, he fears that he will be interrogated and suspected. He wonders what to do to divert suspicion from himself. He is perhaps not strong enough to lug the body very far. He thinks of dumping it straight away with all the personal effects at a safe distance, but he realises that it is likely to be found soon and that the spotlight will be back on him.
It occurs to him that the first person the police usually suspect is the spouse. Greg won’t do, as he is away for the week-end, but if the killer can succeed in fudging the timeline sufficiently, Greg might be suspected nevertheless. Failing that, the likeliest possibility to take the heat off himself would be for the police to believe that Joanna was killed in her own flat by an unknown chance intruder.
The killer therefore takes Joanna’s effects back to her flat to give the impression that she was attacked there. Seeing her pizza, he removes it, to leave the timeline vague as to her meals. Then he has a stroke of genius: he ostentatiously scrubs an area of the floor with powerful bleach, so that the next entrant into the flat cannot fail to notice. This will infallibly give the impression of a “forensically aware” criminal cleaning up after a murder. This was what convinced the police and family that it was a murder even before there was a body. It was meant to. This was what the Yeates parents saw but were not allowed to reveal.
Finally the killer leaves the flat and returns home where he loads the body into a tarp and takes it to a place of intermediate storage. After Greg is safely back home, he will dump it at some neutral spot he knows for timely discovery that will leave the police unable to determine a very exact time of death.
The rest of the story we know.

How am I doing ? Obviously quite a few variations along the same lines are possible.

 

[Deckard]

That particular Tesco finest pizza has a fairly short cook time of 6 to 8 mins.

Even so imo there would not be enough time between getting home, getting the oven up to temperature, cooking and eating it.

As I said earlier, more likely she had the unopened box in her hand when she opened the door. The kitchen is right beside the only access door to the flat. The box shows evidence of the initial struggle. Maybe just badly dented or has perp's DNA on it so it had to go.

The pizza would need to be unopened or there would be a complete mess of tomato topping on the door and floor to forensically clean up.

 

[Deckard]

Finally the killer leaves the flat and returns home where he loads the body into a tarp and takes it to a place of intermediate storage. After Greg is safely back home, he will dump it at some neutral spot he knows for timely discovery that will leave the police unable to determine a very exact time of death.

This is exactly the reason I think it is more likely a stranger is in the frame rather than GR, CJ or one of the neighbours.

If the body was moved twice, as many believe, this is much easier for someone not on the radar to achieve imo.

 

[Robin Hood]

If CJ did do it why would he not wait ten minutes for her to walk into her own flat. No need for staging, she takes off her own boots, drinks cider etc.

Surely it would be riskier to kill her in a car in a location between Tesco and 44 Canynge Road than within the flat itself?

Because and I'm only speculating that the 'act' didn't present itself that way. Maybe it was really was just a lft home, nothing more sinister or planned at this point. After it got out of hand the person responsible had to think quickly and the first thought was to get the hell out of the area. The next thought would be how it would look when discovered. IMO when it's your freedom at stake you have to be methodical. Cleaning and staging might take ages but the pay off would be priceless.

 

[Myserty64]

teabreid wrote:

better to focus on who when and how.

That is a terrific guideline for pondering this case.
I would add 'why'.

So, the key words are:

who when how why ???????????

 

[Deckard]

This scenario would leave the perp with a dead body in the front of his vehicle which would presumably need to be placed in the boot to avoid detection.

Body from front passenger seat to boot.

Body from entrance hall of flat to boot.

Neither ideal.

 

[Phillb]

teabreid wrote:



That is a terrific guideline for pondering this case.
I would add 'why'.

So, the key words are:

who when how why ???????????

Million Dollar question isn't it? And I'm still non the wiser. I'm sure we must all change our theories daily.

 

[Myserty64]

The very fact Crimewatch is doing a reconstruction at this stage tells me the investigation is in dire need of help.
Do they have DNA or not?

 

[Myserty64]

You are so right Phillb.

If I had to put my house on it my answers are:

who: no idea really
when: no idea (but most likely within a few minutes of arriving home)
how: don't know
why: no idea

I'm wondering how much better off the police are. This is one tough case.

 

[Phillb]

You are so right Phillb.

If I had to put my house on it my answers are:

who: no idea really
when: no idea (but most likely within a few minutes of arriving home)
how: don't know
why: no idea

I'm wondering how much better off the police are. This is one tough case.

You ever heard of the perfect murder?
By hook or by crook, careful planning or blunder, this is looking like one. I'm just wondering if the Police are secretly thinking the shame thing. We wait with great anticipation!

 

[Destroyer]

1. Joanna before getting home, got into a car with someone else and was killed in it. The killer then took her effects to the flat to draw attention to the flat and thus away from the place where she really died. I don’t like this unless there were two people in the car or one very strong person and even then the advantages to the killer of taking the personal effects back to the flat seem hardly sufficient to outweigh the danger of being seen there.

My suggestion is that the killer left Joanna’s personal effects in the flat in order to produce the one and only effect that could have : to draw attention very firmly towards the flat, and away from anywhere else.

How am I doing ? Obviously quite a few variations along the same lines are possible.

Good Post Nausicaa & very convincing too - i agree you may well be barking up the right tree with your theory.

 

[Phillb]

Listen up guys!!

Joanna Yeates’s parents have appealed to “armchair detectives” across the country to help police solve their daughter’s murder.

“Nearly the whole country has been moved by the tragic events surrounding Jo's murder. Many of us are 'armchair detectives', but if this activity triggers anything please come forward.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...he-public-to-help-catch-daughters-killer.html

 

[Destroyer]

What I would most like to hear is the 999 call that started everything off. I believe that in itself would throw a lot of light on this case. Given the history of this case, I'm not optimistic.

Yes exactly what i said in an earlier post teabreid, GR's phonecall would be well scrutinised after CrimeWatch on here.

 

[Sweep the cat]

This may appear the perfect murder simply because we are making the crime fit the theory. We simply do not have enough information to be able to make an educated judgement. I personally think this crime is close to home, but we get conflicting times and places from the media and maybe the police too, which is leading us to make us look at some theories that to my mind are not in the ball park.

That said I do feel the level of sleuthing has been nothing short of brilliant by all posters and I do feel now we can only wait and see what the next clues are especially of there is a reconstruction.

I must admit the police are being very quiet or very clever not sure which one.