UK - Logan Mwangi, 5, found dead in Wales River, Bridgend, 31 July 2021 *arrests, inc. minor* #3

[tedtink]

Well that's a long list of previous for JC.

I wouldn't be surprised if he had a really troubled upbringing too.
Still, everyone deserves some empathy.

 

[Tortoise]

I don't know why I thought this, but I thought previous convictions weren't allowed to be brought up during a trial!

Disclosure of Previous Convictions of Prosecution Witnesses | The Crown Prosecution Service

Reading the above, I'm still struggling to make sense of it. Does the above article say the defence can disclose previous convictions if it assists the defendant?

That link refers to the convictions of prosecution witnesses, not the defendant.

 

[Seattle1]

I don't know why I thought this, but I thought previous convictions weren't allowed to be brought up during a trial!

Disclosure of Previous Convictions of Prosecution Witnesses | The Crown Prosecution Service

Reading the above, I'm still struggling to make sense of it. Does the above article say the defence can disclose previous convictions if it assists the defendant?

IMO, JC opened the door to prior offense admitted into evidence: he previously told both AW and Mr. Bevan that he had a 99-year suspended jail sentence hanging over him. Evidence was introduced to impeach the defendant witness.

 

[neteditor]

JMO[/QUOTE]

IMO, JC opened the door to prior offense admitted into evidence: he previously told both AW and Mr. Bevan that he had a 99-year suspended jail sentence hanging over him. Evidence was introduced to impeach the defendant witness.

Exactly this, they are proving he's a habitual liar.

 

[Tortoise]

Also, I think previous history was necessary to make sense of much of the evidence - social workers, foster care, and AW's police interviews.

 

[Sooty]

Perhaps the judge might decide to honour JC with his fantasy 99 year sentence when he gets found guilty of murder.

 

[Dotta]

Perhaps the judge might decide to honour JC with his fantasy 99 year sentence when he gets found guilty of murder.

That would be some empathy

 

[Sherlockhames]

So now that we have been presented with the whole prosecution case - what are people thinking?

MOO - and cognisant of the fact I haven’t heard their defences so could change my view -

JC - Guilty of murder. I reckon he definitely inflicted some of the fatal blows, was to some extent aware of this - didn’t care, but knew he could well have inflicted dangerous injuries so then concocted the ridiculous plan to attempt to get away with the murder by getting rid of the “evidence”. So guilty of the murder and obviously PTCJ (as he has already admitted).

AW - I’m wavering between guilty of murder or the slightly less serious causing the death of a child. The difference as far as I can see is whether she had the mens rea/intention to kill or should likely have foreseen her actions would lead to his death vs just gross negligence. And this is where I know I differ from some of the other websleuthers on here as to whether she suspected Logan was actually dying (in which case her lack of seeking medical intervention is murder) or if she didn’t realise the seriousness of his condition and therefore didn’t think he was dying. I am not sure there is enough evidence she inflicted any of the fatal blows herself (although she might have thought she did hence her desire to get rid of the pyjama top - but none of the other people present have indicated she was seriously violent towards her son, unless I missed that evidence?).
I do think she has lied throughout her evidence so on current evidence presented (unless there is some miraculous defence she can come up with to explain her phone activity and the lights going on and off while JC and the youth were out of the house) that would also make her certainly guilty of PTCJ.

The youth - I really don’t know. I may have missed some crucial evidence to point to his specific guilt. I think on balance he might be guilty of murder if I believe AW’s evidence once she started talking (after being faced with Logan’s terrible injuries) about him sweeping Logan’s legs and being encouraged by JC to inflict harm to him. But my issue is she is quite an unreliable witness so it’s hard to take what she says as true. There is quite a lot of historic stuff the CPS have dug up to support his being a murderer (ie he was clearly capable) but how much was down to him and how much was through the goading of JC I just don’t know (and TBH this is where hearing the full transcripts in court might make the difference to me). I think on balance he is certainly guilty of PTCJ as despite his very disciplined sticking to his story - it is clearly nonsense. There is no way he wasn’t aware they were dropping Logan’s body in river. (Which could support his being culpable for murder on the basis he went along with it - or that JC just roped him in to help with the cover up because he just happened to be awake. I’m not sure this is something we will know for sure so I’m not sure whether I would
be comfortable with a guilty of murder conviction on the basis of it beyond reasonable doubt. (But if the jury come to a different conclusion I wouldn’t be surprised because they might have a bit more context which is more compelling than the reporting I have seen).

All MOO based only on the reporting I have seen - so not equivalent to what the jury have heard.

 

[Sherlockhames]

I also don’t think any of them are going to take the stand in their own defence as none of them will stand up to cross examination (except, perversely the youth might/could. His story is possibly the hardest to disprove and he might just manage to stonewall everything!).

 

[tedtink]

So now that we have been presented with the whole prosecution case - what are people thinking?

MOO - and cognisant of the fact I haven’t heard their defences so could change my view -

JC - Guilty of murder. I reckon he definitely inflicted some of the fatal blows, was to some extent aware of this - didn’t care, but knew he could well have inflicted dangerous injuries so then concocted the ridiculous plan to attempt to get away with the murder by getting rid of the “evidence”. So guilty of the murder and obviously PTCJ (as he has already admitted).

AW - I’m wavering between guilty of murder or the slightly less serious causing the death of a child. The difference as far as I can see is whether she had the mens rea/intention to kill or should likely have foreseen her actions would lead to his death vs just gross negligence. And this is where I know I differ from some of the other websleuthers on here as to whether she suspected Logan was actually dying (in which case her lack of seeking medical intervention is murder) or if she didn’t realise the seriousness of his condition and therefore didn’t think he was dying. I am not sure there is enough evidence she inflicted any of the fatal blows herself (although she might have thought she did hence her desire to get rid of the pyjama top - but none of the other people present have indicated she was seriously violent towards her son, unless I missed that evidence?).
I do think she has lied throughout her evidence so on current evidence presented (unless there is some miraculous defence she can come up with to explain her phone activity and the lights going on and off while JC and the youth were out of the house) that would also make her certainly guilty of PTCJ.

The youth - I really don’t know. I may have missed some crucial evidence to point to his specific guilt. I think on balance he might be guilty of murder if I believe AW’s evidence once she started talking (after being faced with Logan’s terrible injuries) about him sweeping Logan’s legs and being encouraged by JC to inflict harm to him. But my issue is she is quite an unreliable witness so it’s hard to take what she says as true. There is quite a lot of historic stuff the CPS have dug up to support his being a murderer (ie he was clearly capable) but how much was down to him and how much was through the goading of JC I just don’t know (and TBH this is where hearing the full transcripts in court might make the difference to me). I think on balance he is certainly guilty of PTCJ as despite his very disciplined sticking to his story - it is clearly nonsense. There is no way he wasn’t aware they were dropping Logan’s body in river. (Which could support his being culpable for murder on the basis he went along with it - or that JC just roped him in to help with the cover up because he just happened to be awake. I’m not sure this is something we will know for sure so I’m not sure whether I would
be comfortable with a guilty of murder conviction on the basis of it beyond reasonable doubt. (But if the jury come to a different conclusion I wouldn’t be surprised because they might have a bit more context which is more compelling than the reporting I have seen).

All MOO based only on the reporting I have seen - so not equivalent to what the jury have heard.

Regarding the youth, the jury may be able to draw inference of intention to murder from some of the evidence presented by witnesses regarding things he had said IMO.

 

[Tortoise]

We're currently in week 7 of an eight week trial. That makes me think they are not expecting the defendants to go into the witness box. I estimate with three defendants closing speeches, the prosecution's closing speech and the judge's summing up that will fill up the remaining week.

 

[Sherlockhames]

Regarding the youth, the jury may be able to draw inference of intention to murder from some of the evidence presented by witnesses regarding things he had said IMO.

I suppose so - I just don’t have a sense how those witnesses came across in the courtroom though. Quite a lot of that stuff is hearsay and maybe he’s just an arse of a kid who says things to provoke a reaction? I could go either way - but I think that is where being the courtroom makes a huge difference. The way that was reported makes it sound quite sensational, but could it have been a provocative statement rather than something more malevolent. I just don’t know.

(Like the way the comment from AW was reported. Where one of the witnesses says AW said she “missed punishing Logan” to paraphrase. I suspect context to this was as per her defence barrister in that she was saying something like “I even miss him being naughty” which the witness maybe turned into “I miss punishing him for being naughty) not “ I wish he was still alive so I could punish him” which is sort of the way the reporting came across as being the implication. I don’t think AW is as callous and stupid as to say, if she did knowingly just murder her child, “I liked punishing him so much I wish he was still alive so I could continue doing so”.

 

[tedtink]

We're currently in week 7 of an eight week trial. That makes me think they are not expecting the defendants to go into the witness box. I estimate with three defendants closing speeches, the prosecution's closing speech and the judge's summing up that will fill up the remaining week.

Crikey, I thought it was only week 4

 

[Nemonemonemo]

My opinion, both adults are guilty of murder. I'm not going to call the boy's involvement yet although to be clear I do not in any way believe he thought they were dumping bin bags.

This case, it's hard. Emotionally. I normally try to avoid reading about cases involving children, but the geographical proximity meant I got kind of... sucked in.

I've lived in places like Sarn. I know what it is to be a young single parent in a 'deprived' area in Wales. I've known people like Angharad, Like John. Every picture we see of Logan he's smart, and looks happy. I suppose it hammers home, in a very real way, that we never know what goes on behind closed doors.

I know Social Services get a great deal of flak, but I can't help wondering how differently the lives of myself and my friends would have turned out, had SS not intervened.

 

[tedtink]

but I think that is where being the courtroom makes a huge difference.

Agree.
The reporting hasn't been that great either TBF.

 

[Sherlockhames]

We're currently in week 7 of an eight week trial. That makes me think they are not expecting the defendants to go into the witness box. I estimate with three defendants closing speeches, the prosecution's closing speech and the judge's summing up that will fill up the remaining week.

Wow. I hadn’t really been keeping up. Has it been that long! But yes - there can’t be much of a defence expected. So that’s it. Three defence closing speeches, prosecution closing and then jury is off to consider the verdicts. Will be interested to hear the judges remarks before the jury is sent to consider the verdicts. Don’t envy their task.

 

[tedtink]

I suppose so - I just don’t have a sense how those witnesses came across in the courtroom though. Quite a lot of that stuff is hearsay and maybe he’s just an arse of a kid who says things to provoke a reaction?

BBM

It's evidence not hearsay.

His actions and violent behavior towards others described by witnesses make me think otherwise.

 

[Seattle1]

17:39PHILIP DEWEY
Prosecution case ends

Prosecutor Caroline Rees QC says the prosecution’s case has now finished.

The trial is adjourned for the day and will resume at 10.30am tomorrow.

Logan Mwangi murder trial - live updates

 

[Nemonemonemo]

BBM

His actions and violent behavior towards others described by witnesses make me think otherwise.

To be honest, much of what has been reported is fairly typical of a lot of boys in the care system. I mean, in terms of being an arse. Not just boys either- I wasn't terribly pleasant at that age. Swearing at teachers, social workers, refusing to cooperate, yeah, being an arse.

There are some testimonies that are more troubling, however, like those specifically pertaining to threats of violence.

 

[Nemonemonemo]

Regarding the youth, the jury may be able to draw inference of intention to murder from some of the evidence presented by witnesses regarding things he had said IMO.

What a tremendous responsibility. I certainly don't envy them