UK - Logan Mwangi, 5, found dead in Wales River, Bridgend, 31 July 2021 *arrests, inc. minor* #3

[Jay_Tec]

yes I did understand the reason for the question, but I found it interesting how the youth immediately jumped to the most negative explanation. A reflection of how his life had gone downhill I guess, or as Ted says, what he had picked up from the other two accused.

Agree altho I imagine he's no stranger to being formally interviewed and threatened with being locked up.
I understand that being badly beaten by his own mother is horrific but then again since we know nothing of the circumstances, now I wonder... if he did something?

 

[Jay_Tec]

MOO... children who have been through horrific lives of abuse, insecure attachments, loss of caregivers and heaven knows what else are entitled to empathy, no matter what they've done. We don't know that whatever he has been through has created this "monster" he may (OR MAY NOT) have turned into. His life was already in pieces before he was placed in this household.

I come from that background, so do my siblings. We haven't participated in anyone's murder, we haven't terrorised anyone, none of us, nor would we.
Some people have been so badly hurt they know to never ever do a single thing that would hurt or affect someone else.
Other people think being a violent bully is the only winning formula, some have bits of their brain missing, literally. They're called sociopaths.

 

[LucyRocket]

That is my opinion too.

I would like to know why they could not put the rubbish he said was in black bin bags in the garden in a wheelie bin.

We have a blue one for recycling and a black one for non recyclable rubbish

Fly tipping has become a real issue here, since the council put in restrictions of only being allowed to put out 1 bag of general rubbish per week, collected 3-weekly

And I would also add:

"Wouldn't I call the Police if I knew it was Logan's body JC carried?"

Logan Mwangi murder trial - live updates

It's delivering that as a question rather than a statement which raises my suspicion of him being genuine. It would be natural to say "Oh my God, he was carrying Logan's body? If I'd known I think I would have called the police!" However, it's totally unnatural to deliver it as a question "don't you think I would have called the police?" That smacks of him trying to direct their doubt.

Also to add, I notice he's been able to curb his foul language and refrain from kicking or pinching the investigating officers, which he's failed to do with anyone else in authority, AND the only times he uses profanities is when referring to Logan; he's a *advertiser censored*, was being an arse, being a dick........ not the language you'd use about someone you only ever gave hugs to IMO

 

[neteditor]

I come from that background, so do my siblings. We haven't participated in anyone's murder, we haven't terrorised anyone, none of us, nor would we.
Some people have been so badly hurt they know to never ever do a single thing that would hurt or affect someone else.
Other people think being a violent bully is the only winning formula, some have bits of their brain missing, literally. They're called sociopaths.

Trust me on this, I come from worse, I'm determined to right the wrongs by being a good person, but my brother took the other road. Both brought up in the same family after "the events" I won't go into as it's not relevant to here. The damage was done before he was 5. This kid is still only a kid, and we know next to NOTHING about him. <modsnip: personalizing> MOO

 

[LucyRocket]

Referring to deceased LM as an A'hole in his Police interviews just about sums this kid up imo.

And I would add, be less concerned about 'not wanting to speak badly about him because he's not here' and more concerned about 'he's a little child who is dead, how the hell can that happen?' Misplaced morals, much?

 

[Dotta]

It's delivering that as a question rather than a statement which raises my suspicion of him being genuine. It would be natural to say "Oh my God, he was carrying Logan's body? If I'd known I think I would have called the police!" However, it's totally unnatural to deliver it as a question "don't you think I would have called the police?" That smacks of him trying to direct their doubt.

Also to add, I notice he's been able to curb his foul language and refrain from kicking or pinching the investigating officers, which he's failed to do with anyone else in authority, AND the only times he uses profanities is when referring to Logan; he's a *advertiser censored*, was being an arse, being a dick........ not the language you'd use about someone you only ever gave hugs to IMO

For me, his answer seemed cheeky/impertinent.

But, as I am a foreigner, maybe I didnt understand correctly.

Answering a question with another question isnt polite in my country.

 

[LucyRocket]

Those type of preliminary questions are usually to set the tone - to reveal someone's mental state, alertness, awareness, reality testing, capacity to see how other people view things (ie. ability to speculate on another's thoughts, he is not 'mind blind'). Severely challenged or disabled people can't manage any of that.

All of those preliminary questions revealed the Youth is aware of reality, has capacity to answer questions, knows where he is, and is able to understand what is happening, as well as much more - he understands the difference between an accidental error and telling a lie, he understands people will be considering these type of issues.

Well, it's usually a lot simpler than that. Whenever we have a juvenile who is accused, or even a person with limited capacity who is an accuser, you have to prove you have tested their understanding of the situation they're in. So for example, a young lady I was working with who had documented learning disabilities made a disclosure of abuse. We had to ask her, recorded, do you know what a court is? And assess her answer, to determine whether she had capacity to understand the process that was before her and choose to pursue it, as it isn't our place to decide whether that's a process she wants to pursue, as you or I might decide if we wanted to stand up in court and tell our story against an abuser. If his answer was that he had no idea, they would have to spend time explaining what a court was for, before they could question him, as otherwise his answers could be taken as being self- incriminating without knowing the ramifications. Oh I wish I could explain things more clearly!

 

[Jay_Tec]

For me, his answer seemed cheeky/impertinent.

But, as I am a foreigner, maybe I didnt understand correctly.

Answering a question with another question isnt polite in my country.

I interpret it as impertinent and somewhat outrageous as well as sarcastic bearing in mind at the time being discussed, the Youth was captured on camera walking beside / slightly behind JC who had Logan flung over his shoulders with his arms danging behind his back. So, Logan was not inside a bin bag for example.

 

[Doris777]

Think all this is just a mind blah as to what goes on in people's heads! This kid must be messed up. He might come across as cocky and a know it all but I bet deep down he's seriously messed up.
I don't for one minute condone what's happened so please don't come for me. I'm just trying to explain from another side.
I recon someone has serious neglected this kid. Something big has obviously happened for him to not be with his mum. And from that happening to then being with Cole and looking up to him as a perfect person which is what happens...not realising he's not because he has no good role model. So he's now seriously messed up in the head and I don't think he knows what's good or bad anymore. He's surviving on pure anger. But he thinks it's ok. Because who's ever taught him it's not. Or taught him love and care and compassion.
I have a feeling he has really hurt him and not really fully understood what he's done. But I do think all 3 of them have messed up and neglected poor Logan. I don't think any of them know what's good, bad right or wrong anymore because they have just survived.
I think Logan's mum is living in a state of denial and that's why she's overly exaggerated her emotions ect. She's probably in full denial because the severity of admitting what's happened to Logan is to close to home and how can a mum say or do things to her own child...(can't think of the right words) because mother's are meant to look after and nurture there kids...but she hasn't and she can't Handel the truth of what she and the others have done.

I think the lot of them and messed up!

I feel so sorry for Logan and his real dad. Logan neglected and the dad never getting to be a dad.

I also wonder if this lad had some serious mental health issues that are not diagnosed. Because looking from tho outside he seriously is messed up.


All moo

 

[tedtink]

Fly tipping has become a real issue here, since the council put in restrictions of only being allowed to put out 1 bag of general rubbish per week, collected 3-weekly


It's delivering that as a question rather than a statement which raises my suspicion of him being genuine. It would be natural to say "Oh my God, he was carrying Logan's body? If I'd known I think I would have called the police!" However, it's totally unnatural to deliver it as a question "don't you think I would have called the police?" That smacks of him trying to direct their doubt.

Also to add, I notice he's been able to curb his foul language and refrain from kicking or pinching the investigating officers, which he's failed to do with anyone else in authority, AND the only times he uses profanities is when referring to Logan; he's a *advertiser censored*, was being an arse, being a dick........ not the language you'd use about someone you only ever gave hugs to IMO

BBM.

Yes I agree, answering the question with a question can also help to avoid uncomfortable subjects - It could be a defense mechanism in this context IMO.

 

[Jay_Tec]

I don't agree Logan was neglected as he was well catered to. He didn't die of neglect.

He died of violent abuse perpetrated by violent abusers - they targeted him - who knew what they were doing wrong as they then created a whole false scenario to cover it up and threw his body away. That makes them criminally violent, not neglectful.

Agree his mother will struggle to come out of denial but she is the only one who can secure justice for Logan.

I feel for his father, his grandmother, his little sibling, and even his mother if she ever gets real.

 

[tedtink]

Also to add, I notice he's been able to curb his foul language and refrain from kicking or pinching the investigating officers, which he's failed to do with anyone else in authority, AND the only times he uses profanities is when referring to Logan; he's a *advertiser censored*, was being an arse, being a dick........ not the language you'd use about someone you only ever gave hugs to IMO

Yes, he's doesn't even seem to be attempting to disguise how inappropriate it is under the circumstances, especially when he said this..........

Youth: “(Logan) was a bit grumpy and angry….Just the look when he gets a little annoyed he gives a death stare.

Logan Mwangi murder trial - live updates

 

[Atlasiamgoing]

These food descriptions are so vivid. They weren't real and they weren't true. So, what were they?

Is it possible that JC has knowingly coached AW and the Youth separately with two conflicting stories?

I don't know how conniving, thoughtful, and intelligent JC is but we know AW is not a genius and that the Youth has some sort of learning or intellectual disabilities / set backs. Seems to me JC has ran them through the events of the night. This is what we did, this is what we ate, etc. We know now that they are all three lying. So, they didn't sit down and eat any dinner together. They were panicking about what to do with a near dead child I imagine.

mum
Thinking that he refused dinner both evenings and the youth got it wrong on the night that pizza was served

 

[Seattle1]

Logan Mwangi: Teenager was 'moving rubbish', court told

28 March 2022

[..]

The teenager said he believed the bags contained "polystyrene and broken toys".

He explained how he and Cole took the bags to the River Ogmore and dumped them. They returned 20 minutes later to check they had disappeared.

Asked why they returned to check, the youth said: "So we didn't get a £1,000 fine."

[..]

In interviews Ms Williamson gave to the police she said Cole had assaulted Logan, punching him "three or four times to the stomach" and that he "went flying".

She said Cole had encouraged the youth to join in and "sweep" Logan's legs from under him the next time the young boy "flinched".

Ms Williamson added that Cole had said: "The only way this boy understands is pain."

The teenager said Ms Williamson's statements were false, adding: "I did not see (Cole) lay a finger on him."

At the end of his final interview the youth added: "You can tell Angharad Williamson to [expletive] off for me. She is blaming me and John Cole. I am just sick of this.

"She is just saying what she wants to get out of the [expletive] cells."

 

[Skigh]

mum
Thinking that he refused dinner both evenings and the youth got it wrong on the night that pizza was served

I do not think LM would have been capable of sitting at a table yet alone refusing dinner on the evening he died and maybe also not on the previous day too.

 

[Seattle1]

3/28/22 Youth accused of murdering boy told police he thought body was waste in bin bags

 

[Jay_Tec]

3/28/22 Youth accused of murdering boy told police he thought body was waste in bin bags

I think it's this statement in contrast to cctv evidence that will wholly destroy his argument of being unaware.

 

[Dotta]

I think it's this statement in contrast to cctv evidence that will wholly destroy his argument of being unaware.

The teen did what JC told him to do.
It seems to me he hero worshipped JC, followed him like a shadow.

What a pity the boy wasn't assigned to somebody else, a positive role model.

MOO

 

[Seattle1]

Today's testimony by the youth defendant has me believing that he should have been recognized as a violent offender and remanded in secure accommodation as an adult (even though he'll be subject to youth sentencing upon conviction). I think the defendant knows the difference between right and wrong, and he has zero remorse for the harm and suffering Logan endured. I have little faith that protecting the youth at this time (i.e., allowing him freedom) will prevent him from re-offending today, tomorrow, or in the future.

The case reminds me very much of a 2018 murder in Colorado where a 12 yr old shot and killed his dad's girlfriend, helped his dad burn the victim and her car in an attempt to destroy the evidence, before fleeing to a neighboring state. After the father failed to shoot the victim, the child took the gun and murdered the victim where his father was quoted as saying that his 12 yr old son "earned his man card" that day. I see similarities with this father/son relationship as with JC and the youth. (This father denied his son was involved in the murder but the evidence proved otherwise). In this case, the victim, a mother of four, loved her youth killer and worried about him.

By recognizing the youth here as an adult offender, the 12 yr old was remanded to youth detention (no bail) where he was in confinement for 2.6 years awaiting trial. Upon conviction, he was sentenced to 5 years confinement in Dept of Youth Corrections to age 21 (state law requires youth offenders released at age 21). The youthful offender’s sentence includes a parole period as well that was described as one that will offer therapy to the young teen.

The youth's father was previously sentenced to 42 years in prison for second-degree murder in the case. As part of the plea agreement, the father pleaded guilty to the murder charge

Gage Gleason sentenced to 5 years in CDOYC, parole until 21 years of age in murder of Amy Garcia – The World Journal

https://www.koaa.com/news/covering-...-years-for-muder-of-walsenburg-single-mother/

GUILTY - CO - Amy Garcia, 41, shot & burned by man and 12 y.o. son, Huerfano Co, Dec 2018 *Arrests*

ETA: recognizing that UK/Wales allows children aged between 10 and 17 are capable of committing offences and it is not possible for a child to avoid liability by showing that they do not know the difference between right and wrong.

 

[Jay_Tec]

The teen did what JC told him to do.
It seems to me he hero worshipped JC, followed him like a shadow.

What a pity the boy wasn't assigned to somebody else, a positive role model.

Do you think so ? I don't think we've heard enough to know.

It's still not clear whether JC wasn't covering up for final blows dealt by the Youth.

For me, I would want to know a whole lot more. The person who can clear this up is AW. If she tells the truth.