Found Deceased UK - Nicola Bulley Last Seen Walking Dog Near River - St Michaels on Wyre (Lancashire), Jan 2023 #18

[OckhamsRazor22]

I can name at least a dozen high profile cases within the last decade, where police teams and professional search and rescue efforts FAILED to find the body. Even though later, when discovered - it was right next to them all the time. Eerie. It occurs more often than thought.

 

[Mollie123]

Does anyone know why at the time they found NB in the river, the scene wasn't treated differently? I am assuming at that point they would have no idea whether foul play was involved?

 

[mrjitty]

Does anyone know why at the time they found NB in the river, the scene wasn't treated differently? I am assuming at that point they would have no idea whether foul play was involved?

The scene is assessed by the first responders I assume.

There is a bit of a mythology around the forensic stuff. What exactly are people expecting when a body is found snagged in at the side of a river? It's not as if bodies climb out and get on dry land, though they can be stranded by receding water.

So you know, shall they be swabbing the reeds or something? Typically forensics are only done on things an offender might have come in contact with that could reveal some evidence, or clues relating to the death (e.g blood spatter) Where we have a body that will be visibly showing signs of being in the water for an extended period, i don't know what forensics would supposedly be available on land/vegetation?

 

[mrjitty]

I guess it would work if Nicola had been killed / abducted whilst dog walking and then once initial searches of the river had taken place, returned to the river. I am not sure the earliest time period when it would have been feasible for her to be returned.

But this will be completely obvious

1. Cause of death wouldn't be drowning
2. Body wouldn't show the correct signs of being in the water for 3.5 weeks

To me this theory is just a nonstarter - a convoluted way of avoiding the much more obvious inference.

Sure if evidence emerged of an alternate cause of death, then we'd know she didn't get in the river by herself. But unless such evidence actually emerges, i don't really see this as a viable theory.

Also - this all wouldn't take authorities weeks to figure out - it would be clear from the first hours

 

[PeggyHenry]

These are my mirrored thoughts which keep me awake at night. I try to follow logic. What is reasonable. None of the police scenarios make much sense - as there are too many holes. The dots do not connect, and until they do…we have no conclusive cause of death.

Exactly …

 

[PeggyHenry]

But this will be completely obvious

1. Cause of death wouldn't be drowning
2. Body wouldn't show the correct signs of being in the water for 3.5 weeks

To me this theory is just a nonstarter - a convoluted way of avoiding the much more obvious inference.

Sure if evidence emerged of an alternate cause of death, then we'd know she didn't get in the river by herself. But unless such evidence actually emerges, i don't really see this as a viable theory.

Also - this all wouldn't take authorities weeks to figure out - it would be clear from the first hours

Agree it would need evidence to emerge of an alternate cause of death…
If death caused by drowning then either accidental fall, deliberate jump or someone pushed …
Don’t disagree with you once it is clarified that death due to drowning

 

[MsBetsy]

Does anyone know why at the time they found NB in the river, the scene wasn't treated differently? I am assuming at that point they would have no idea whether foul play was involved?

How should the scene have been treated? It is standard procedure to look for signs of foul play when LE finds the body of a missing person.

Decomposition is rapid once a body is removed from water so they probably had to act quickly but carefully, without disturbing possible evidence. Damage by aquatic animals and insect activity can mimic wounds so I think the ME would be meticulous when looking for signs of injury and determining cause and manner of death.

The body will tell the story, imo.

 

[tree1]

I trust the police enough to be pretty sure no foul play. They would have to release possible foul play as soon as possible due to ramifications of not looking for an offender, surely. What happened to this poor lady is not obvious to me but am pretty confident no foul play.

 

[mrjitty]

How should the scene have been treated? It is standard procedure to look for signs of foul play when LE finds the body of a missing person.

Decomposition is rapid once a body is removed from water so they probably had to act quickly but carefully, without disturbing possible evidence. Damage by aquatic animals and insect activity can mimic wounds so I think the ME would be meticulous when looking for signs of injury and determining cause and manner of death.

The body will tell the story, imo.

IMO since McCann the media have promoted a mythology that police should always have crime scene tape up and being forensically examining crime scenes from the first seconds but it simply does not work that way - especially because the resourcing does not exist.

I can think of multiple UK cases off the top of my head where someone went missing, had been murdered in the house, and the family went on living there for days before it was cleared as a crime scene.

Law enforcement have to make educated decisions about where to look for evidence.

 

[Nikynoo]

I don't understand your comment that the coroner did not perform the PM? And yes it is perfectly normal for an inquest to be opened and adjourned. However in this particular case the coroner has confirmed in his statement that further investigation is required to be presented in a hearing in June.
Another member has already posted a link further back in this thread, I'm not sure it's the same one What happens next with Nicola Bulley case from cause of death to funeral

The pathologist carries out the post mortem. The Coroner carries out the inquest.

 

[Nikynoo]

That being so it would have been she who arranged the harness and phone positions ,making her way downstream knowing the dog couldn't get under the gate?

the DS stated at the press conference that the dog could have got out if it wanted to.

 

[Nikynoo]

I can’t believe that if NB fell in the river that Willow wouldn’t have jumped in.
The dog being bone dry tells me that if NB went in the river then Willow wasn’t around.
I have two cocker spaniels and my next door neighbour has two springers. We all walk by a river daily. Based on years of experience I cannot believe Willow would be bone dry in NB entered the river whilst Willow was around her.

We know that Willow like water, but did Willow like steep banks and deep water? Did Willow actually see N fall into the river? By all accounts, Willow was well trained, so I can understand her not leaving the area by the gate or gap in the fence. Now if N had walked down to the Weir, Willow may have tried to follow her there, but if N had told her to stay, I think Willow would have stayed.

 

[Nikynoo]

I can name at least a dozen high profile cases within the last decade, where police teams and professional search and rescue efforts FAILED to find the body. Even though later, when discovered - it was right next to them all the time. Eerie. It occurs more often than thought.

I read a study, which was on one of the other cases here (a US one) and it found that sometimes the brain of the searcher does not want to process what it sees (a dead body) and that is how they are missed. In other cases, SAR underestimates the search area and the body is found sometime later just outside the search area. It's not an exact science.

 

[Cuko]

I guess it would work if Nicola had been killed / abducted whilst dog walking and then once initial searches of the river had taken place, returned to the river. I am not sure the earliest time period when it would have been feasible for her to be returned.

But in that case there would be no water in her lungs, surely? I’m no expert but I think a post mortem would reveal that immediately, confirming that the body must have been placed in the river after death. Jmo

 

[Mollie123]

The scene is assessed by the first responders I assume.

There is a bit of a mythology around the forensic stuff. What exactly are people expecting when a body is found snagged in at the side of a river? It's not as if bodies climb out and get on dry land, though they can be stranded by receding water.

So you know, shall they be swabbing the reeds or something? Typically forensics are only done on things an offender might have come in contact with that could reveal some evidence, or clues relating to the death (e.g blood spatter) Where we have a body that will be visibly showing signs of being in the water for an extended period, i don't know what forensics would supposedly be available on land/vegetation?

Thank you I wasn't sure of procedures.

 

[Mollie123]

How should the scene have been treated? It is standard procedure to look for signs of foul play when LE finds the body of a missing person.

Decomposition is rapid once a body is removed from water so they probably had to act quickly but carefully, without disturbing possible evidence. Damage by aquatic animals and insect activity can mimic wounds so I think the ME would be meticulous when looking for signs of injury and determining cause and manner of death.

The body will tell the story, imo.

Am not sure how the scene should be treated, it's why I asked. Thank you for your response.

 

[CS2C]

Someone posted a really helpful video of a female giving a talk/presentation regarding bodies found in water. Could someone link it please as I cannot find it for the life of me. Thank you in advance

 

[Alyce]

Someone posted a really helpful video of a female giving a talk/presentation regarding bodies found in water. Could someone link it please as I cannot find it for the life of me. Thank you in advance

 

[mrjitty]

I read a study, which was on one of the other cases here (a US one) and it found that sometimes the brain of the searcher does not want to process what it sees (a dead body) and that is how they are missed. In other cases, SAR underestimates the search area and the body is found sometime later just outside the search area. It's not an exact science.

BIB

I'd heartily recommend No Stone Unturned about Necrosearch on this topic

Even where you know roughly what happened, and have an idea of where to look, finding bodies can be total needle in a haystack time. The book covers the emerging science of body recovery - but it is very very difficult.

This is why I was sceptical of being easily able to find NB if she had left on foot. Covering dozens of square miles is no simple matter.

 

[pineapple23]

We know that Willow like water, but did Willow like steep banks and deep water? Did Willow actually see N fall into the river? By all accounts, Willow was well trained, so I can understand her not leaving the area by the gate or gap in the fence. Now if N had walked down to the Weir, Willow may have tried to follow her there, but if N had told her to stay, I think Willow would have stayed.

I occurred to me also that N could have thrown a stick or something to divert her.