UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #13

[WaxLyrical]

I also checked out spontaneous bleeding with haemophilia, and as far as I can tell this is only a feature of severe forms of the condition. Happy to be corrected!

The page you linked to lists ‘occasional spontaneous bleeding’ in the moderate classification.

Hopefully we’ll hear more on it and they’ll clarify exactly how affected the child was, as the experts seem to suggest spontaneous bleeding was out of the question.

 

[Tortoise]

What makes you think she feels anything?

She's expressed hatred and fear in her private writings.

 

[Parker Knoll]

As you know I’m no nurse but could the bleeding if it WAS inflicted by Letby of been caused by any implement ? Not necessarily medical but something she had on her - a pen or something in her pocket ?
Apologies if stupid question to all nurses on the board.

 

[Dotta]

Even little Tsarevich Aleksiej Romanow - treated by Rasputin by the way, was bleeding long and heavily only when accidentally injured himself.

And Baby N's disease was mild.

No comparison to Aleksiej.

So no spontaneous bleeding here IMO.
But something (allegedly) thrust into his tiny throat.

JMO

 

[WaxLyrical]

As you know I’m no nurse but could the bleeding if it WAS inflicted by Letby of been caused by any implement ? Not necessarily medical but something she had on her - a pen or something in her pocket ?
Apologies if stupid question to all nurses on the board.

Not a nurse either but I understand the swelling was around the vocal cords, epiglottis etc. That’s quite far down, I’m not sure how easy it would be to get to that area with something like a pen. If you Google the instrument they use when placing these ET tubes (laryngoscope) it is curved and looks frankly like a torture device.

 

[MsBetsy]

It is the same.

Reacting awkwardly in social situations means anxiety.

Proverbial "not knowing what to do with one's hands".

Do you mean she behaved awkwardly when alone?

I don't think so.
That is why we add the word "social".

Look at her (in)famous note.
Do you think a self confident person wrote it?

Anxiety/self doubting/self condemning.

JMJ

Social awkwardness is not a condition or a disorder, though. Someone can be awkward and not have anxiety or they can have an anxiety disorder and normal or even above average social skills, imo.

Letby was described as socially 'awkward' or not fitting in, but nobody has described her as having an anxiety disorder.

She does say some awkward things like 'Just a shame I don't eat chocolate,' or 'nothing I can do really, it's the luck of the draw,' when referring to a patient's sudden death.

Continously going into the family room, smiling and going on about the baby's first bath as a mother bathed her dead child was awkward, but doesn't necessarily point to anxiety, imo.

To me it's more like she doesn't know the appropriate way to behave in certain situations.

 

[Parker Knoll]

Not a nurse either but I understand the swelling was around the vocal cords, epiglottis etc. That’s quite far down, I’m not sure how easy it would be to get to that area with something like a pen. If you Google the instrument they use when placing these ET tubes (laryngoscope) it is curved and looks frankly like a torture device.

Oh god - that looks horrific.

 

[WaxLyrical]

Oh god - that looks horrific.

It does, doesn’t it. For me, this is why it’s so important to know how many intubation attempts there were, and when. Because this baby will bleed easier, has blood that doesn’t clot in the normal way, and he had not been given factor 8.

It does not feel intuitive to me to say that these implements down the baby’s throat had zero impact, and all the trauma was caused in one fell swoop by LL when she found herself with the opportunity to harm him.

JMO. We will hear more on this case in the next day or two, so hopefully some matters will be cleared up.

 

[Parker Knoll]

It will be busy tomorrow at Manchester Crown as the murder trial of Olivia Pratt-Korbel is starting. Reporting may be reduced possibly on Letby.

 

[Kemug]

And her left her some chocolate? And offered her the use of his car? Sounds like he was pretty interested in her.

No wonder she was so upset in court.

 

[Tortoise]

Hi did neonates sometimes scream if they were hungry?

The problem with the defence's explanation of hunger for the sudden screaming and prolonged crying, IMO, is that the staff on duty, including the doctor, didn't think that, and he eventually settled after 30 minutes without a feed, and went to sleep. They would have known if he had been hungry, or not fed, IMO. Then there was also the sudden significant desaturation, which one would also have to attribute to hunger.

I have been wondering why LL made no nursing notes. There are the doctors notes and a note written by the designated nurse based on what he was told an hour later, but LL didn't record anything. I think the defence is treating it as if it was LL, or they wouldn't be looking for alternative explanations.

JMO

 

[Tortoise]

"LL: “Glad to be off, survived my nights tho ”

What was LL thinking re. surviving nights, when coming off shift, at a time that consultants wanted her working days? I'm sure she wasn't told the reasons why, but it feels as if nights was a trial of sorts in her own mind. We haven't seen her say it after many previous night shifts. Is there a connection with baby N's survival on the night-shift, and her not writing notes for his collapse in her care?


link
Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, March 2

JMO

 

[Tortoise]

Tbh I really didn’t get what he was sayin, for instance how it got round the air monitor on the pump for instance. He gave an approximate value of .8 ml of air per minute. I’m not sure how that ties in with the port and infusion cycle.

That was Dr Bohin's evidence, not Dr Evan's.

Injected air led to baby's collapse, trial of nurse Lucy Letby hears

 

[Cardgame]

That was Dr Bohin's evidence, not Dr Evan's.

Injected air led to baby's collapse, trial of nurse Lucy Letby hears

Hopefully it is easier for the jury to keep track of the 'characters' in this case, it is very hard for us just hearing 'colleague' and 'doctor' for everyone.

Hard to build a picture, though you are doing a fantastic job of helping us all keep on top of the details and timeline, thank you @Tortoise.

 

[marynnu]

It does, doesn’t it. For me, this is why it’s so important to know how many intubation attempts there were, and when. Because this baby will bleed easier, has blood that doesn’t clot in the normal way, and he had not been given factor 8.

It does not feel intuitive to me to say that these implements down the baby’s throat had zero impact, and all the trauma was caused in one fell swoop by LL when she found herself with the opportunity to harm him.

JMO. We will hear more on this case in the next day or two, so hopefully some matters will be cleared up.

EDIT I have found this. If accurate, it indicates that it was the bleeding which caused the problem with intubation rather than the other way round, IMO.

'Doctors were called and an attempt was made to intubate Child N.

He was “surprised by his anatomy more than anything else … I could not visualise parts of the back of his throat because of swelling”.
The doctor saw "fresh blood" in Child N's throat, which the prosecution say was the same seen in Childs C, E and G.

The doctor was unable to get the breathing tube down the throat of Child N as he was unable to visualise the child's tracheal inlet.

He attempted to intubate Child N on three occasions.'

(My previous post:
I'm a little hazy about the order of events re. the bleed and intubation attempts. I can't make out whether the swelling in the airway was seen on the first attempt, which would obviously indicate an existing problem.)

 

[thisismyusernamealso]

Tbh I really didn’t get what he was sayin, for instance how it got round the air monitor on the pump for instance. He gave an approximate value of .8 ml of air per minute. I’m not sure how that ties in with the port and infusion cycle.

The port is after the pump, so the air wouldn't travel through the pump so no alarm.

All that would be needed was a syringe and it would take less than a minute to do.

 

[Dotta]

"LL: “Glad to be off, survived my nights tho ”

What was LL thinking re. surviving nights, when coming off shift, at a time that consultants wanted her working days? I'm sure she wasn't told the reasons why, but it feels as if nights was a trial of sorts in her own mind. We haven't seen her say it after many previous night shifts. Is there a connection with baby N's survival on the night-shift, and her not writing notes for his collapse in her care?


link
Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, March 2

JMO

I guess the arrival of staff from another hospital (allegedly) shook her badly - it broke the routine she was accustomed to.

Fear, not thrill appeared.

If guilty, of course.

JMO

 

[Tortoise]

I guess the arrival of staff from another hospital (allegedly) shook her badly - it broke the routine she was accustomed to.

Fear, not thrill appeared.

If guilty, of course.

JMO

That was a different shift, a day-shift, almost two weeks later.

 

[Dotta]

That was a different shift almost two weeks later.

It doesn't matter.
Night shifts were no more what they used to be.

If you know what I mean.

JMO

 

[WaxLyrical]

EDIT I have found this. If accurate, it indicates that it was the bleeding which caused the problem with intubation rather than the other way round, IMO.

'Doctors were called and an attempt was made to intubate Child N.

He was “surprised by his anatomy more than anything else … I could not visualise parts of the back of his throat because of swelling”.
The doctor saw "fresh blood" in Child N's throat, which the prosecution say was the same seen in Childs C, E and G.

The doctor was unable to get the breathing tube down the throat of Child N as he was unable to visualise the child's tracheal inlet.

He attempted to intubate Child N on three occasions.'

(My previous post:
I'm a little hazy about the order of events re. the bleed and intubation attempts. I can't make out whether the swelling in the airway was seen on the first attempt, which would obviously indicate an existing problem.)

The thing that has me questioning it is the parents statement which said they’d tried to intubate him between 4-8am that morning (I.e. before). The parents could have been lied to, or it could be that earlier attempts did happen. Hopefully we’ll find out. JMO.